Chains on Fire Apparatus

[Chief21 8]

So, the North East is begining to see more of that white stuff we call snow. Definitely not the 3 plus feet i remember from the 90's,

but the roads are getting covered, and drivers for some reason have forgotten how to drive in these wintery conditions.

Do you still go down to the house and wrap the chains the day before the predicted storm?

Or has technology caught up and your apparatus is spec'd with auto chains?

With weather conditions varying from state to state, how does your department prepare?

[efdny2003 16]

In Elmsford all the rigs including ambulances are equipped with spot chains, which we will use with just a couple inches. If the forecast is for a significant amount of snow we have a separate set of chains for one engine, one ladder, and one ambulance.

[firefighter-70 27]

Put the chains on at 1000hrs this morning by order of the working Deputy. City streets with poor snow removal,loaded with slush. Makes for a fun night!!!

[Chief21 8]

We used to run chaines on all the engines and tankers until about 10 years ago. Now we run without, I am not even sure if we still have to chains available (being all the rigs but one have been replaced). It is kind of scary and nerveracking when you see a 3,000 Gallon Tandom tanker spinning tires. Be it enroute, at the scene, or trying to get out of a water sourse.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Good point. Onspot chains are good up to about 6 inches of snow (from their website My linkhttp://www.onspot.com/ ) . Personally I prefer a full set of chains on the tires as they work above 6 inches, and are not that hard to put on if you know what you are doing.

Edited January 26, 2011 by grumpyff

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

On spot chains have a purpose. They work well for ice and snow that is no more then 3' or when roads might be good downtown but no good up in the back country. Driving with on spots in 3" or more you can not generate enough speed to throw the chains under the tires, and if you are your fired! If you have a full set avaiable to you for the rig then USE THEM ! I would not want to go to court and have a big shot lawyer ask if we have chains for the rigs and WHY they are not on.

[M' Ave 1,466]

We do not have On-spot chains, which is fine because they suck. They're quick and easy, but also lazy and sub-par. They just don't do what a real tire chain does. When it snows enough to cover the roads, we chains the tires. It's easy and takes a few minutes, that's all.

[IFCO3080 26]

We do not have On-spot chains, which is fine because they suck. They're quick and easy, but also lazy and sub-par. They just don't do what a real tire chain does. When it snows enough to cover the roads, we chains the tires. It's easy and takes a few minutes, that's all.

I agree with the above statement. The on spots website says ^ inches but wont work like you want them to in anything over 4 inches. Also I put the chains on one of our engines 3 weeks ago and havent taken them off since. It just been that kind of winter.

[jk969 1]

Our department recently removed the On-Spots from our 2007 Freightliner/Medic Master Ambulance after it destroyed the rear air bag suspension. We run with full chains on all apparatus once there is more then 2" on the ground.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

We used to run chaines on all the engines and tankers until about 10 years ago. Now we run without, I am not even sure if we still have to chains available (being all the rigs but one have been replaced). It is kind of scary and nerveracking when you see a 3,000 Gallon Tandom tanker spinning tires. Be it enroute, at the scene, or trying to get out of a water sourse.

Has any one tried to get chains for the new rigs? It is a very cheap safety measure that is easy to deploy. I do not see why any department would not want chains of some sort on their apparatus.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Patterson just bought a set of full chains for our new Rescue (2010 SVI), which has no On Spots (good thing), and a full set for our first due engine (1993 Sutphen) which has On spots. IIRC a set is on order (or about to be) for the engine out of station 2, (2000 Sutphen)

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I agree 100 % with chains.... on spots are a joke... we actually deleted them from the specs for our next tanker... we take the time and put them on both of our rigs at WECO... well worth it... DON'T LEAVE HOME WITH OUT THEM...

[wraftery 1,275]

We do not have On-spot chains, which is fine because they suck. They're quick and easy, but also lazy and sub-par. They just don't do what a real tire chain does. When it snows enough to cover the roads, we chains the tires. It's easy and takes a few minutes, that's all.

First of all, chains are primarily for ice and slippery packed down snow, not necessarily snow. You can make good progress with no chains of any kind thru virgin snow where traffic has not packed it down and made it icy on the road surface. Even if you are driving your POV and start to slide the first thing you do is get out of the vehicle tracks and on to virgin snow to regain traction.

Automatic chains are excellent in urban settings. Main and secondary roads are usuallly salted /sanded to control Ice early and there is no need for chains. When you leave the main roads and encounter slippery roads, you switch to onspots.

You need both onspots and reguler chains because at about 4-6" of snow, onspots will build up snow between the tire and the rubber onspot wheel and push the onspot away from the tire.

Driving on clean pavement with regular chains has a tendency to "throw a chain" and the loose crosslink will swing and possibly cause significant body damage.

So, the use of onspots or standard chains shouldn't have anything to do with laziness (unless your'e too lazy to put them on), or Golf.

They are tools in your toolbox and applied as conditions warrant. How do you know when conditions warrant? Take a ride.

Edited January 27, 2011 by wraftery

[fireguy5 0]

In Danbury when the roads start to get bad they give a Signal 40 which is to chain up all the machines career and volunteer. Our Volunteer engine has onspot so if they are only calling for an inch of so we will not put the chains on but if they expect more than 3 inches we will put full chains on the truck to get around the slick roads.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Pleasantville VAC has on-spot chains on all ambulance. We just purchased a new set of chains for our designated first due snow bus 7602.

Pleasantville FD has on-spot chains on R47 and E91. We put regular chains on them anyways in any snow over 3 inches about. I do not believe T5, E259, or E260 have on-spots. We put chains on them when needed.

On-spot chains are terrible in any real snow accumulation...waste of money IMO.

[fire 1 asst chief 49]

Sounds like the good old standard tire chains win hands down.

No argument from me !!!!!

[grumpyff 1,159]

The more things change the more they stay the same. 7602 (the 1981 Ford) was always the snow rig, with a full set of chains with single rear tires (bouncy unless you hit just the right speed). E259 has On Spots, IIRC it was the first to get them in Pleasantville, and I remember the department looking to add them to all the first due apparatus at the time( The old R47 did not have them as it would have necessitated cut the fuel tank. .. IIRC E260 has them as well since it has the wheel chair(power door steps) lift for the older members up there.

Most of the time I have used ON Spots, it has left me wishing I had full chains on. They maybe good in more Urban settings, but not for much else.

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

Down here we have both OnSpots and full chains that are always on every truck when winter rolls around. We cover mostly rural roads which have some hills but nothing major, the OnSpots work just fine for us (although we don't get near the average amount of snow you guys up north get) but we havent had a problem with them. Basically the main reason we went with OnSpots was becuase in order to get to our more rural settings we have to go through a few miles of highways which ODOT does a great job of keeping clean and like wraftery said earlier running full chains on dry roads can cause the chains to slip and break. It just proved to be a smatter move for us to try OnSpots out and they've worked good for us.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The more things change the more they stay the same. 7602 (the 1981 Ford) was always the snow rig, with a full set of chains with single rear tires (bouncy unless you hit just the right speed). E259 has On Spots, IIRC it was the first to get them in Pleasantville, and I remember the department looking to add them to all the first due apparatus at the time( The old R47 did not have them as it would have necessitated cut the fuel tank. .. IIRC E260 has them as well since it has the wheel chair(power door steps) lift for the older members up there.

Most of the time I have used ON Spots, it has left me wishing I had full chains on. They maybe good in more Urban settings, but not for much else.

When PVAC moved this pst summer, we left the chains in the old building someone so we just bought new chains for 7602. Did not know E259 and E260 had On Spots. We still put regular chains on them for bad snow.

[conman 40]

Here in Hurley, we run chains. We have them on all of our trucks with the exception of our mini pumper and our utility. Our new ambulance has onspots but we have never used them. Our back up rig has chains but our rescue squad officers have decided not to chain up that rig.

[JM15 386]

The next question is when do you un-chain apparatus? As soon as the roads look black or a day later because of driveways?

[FDNY 10-75 640]

OnSpots are good in a pinch, especially in the days following a snowstorm when a full set of chains on the apparatus or an ambulance isn't practical since most of the roads have been cleared, but some driveways and side streets have not.

[Arrowxt 8]

Auto drop chains have there place. There a few makers of such chain systems that are better than others. One point I do not like about them is that they are horrid in reverse. A few years back I was the driver and responded to a vehicle fire in 6" of snow. Got there and back to station and then could not get the truck backed into the bay. The chains did not work at all in reverse and there was only maybe 4" on the pad( the plow guy was doing his job, it was a bad storm). Full chains are the real deal, and there are different grades of chain you can buy that will operate fine on just wet and dry roads. They are made of better metals and stand up to heat so the cross links tend not to let go and damage the truck. Also if you train the drivers, it only takes seconds to take the chains off and drive away if they are not needed.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Auto drop chains have there place. There a few makers of such chain systems that are better than others. One point I do not like about them is that they are horrid in reverse. A few years back I was the driver and responded to a vehicle fire in 6" of snow. Got there and back to station and then could not get the truck backed into the bay. The chains did not work at all in reverse and there was only maybe 4" on the pad( the plow guy was doing his job, it was a bad storm). Full chains are the real deal, and there are different grades of chain you can buy that will operate fine on just wet and dry roads. They are made of better metals and stand up to heat so the cross links tend not to let go and damage the truck. Also if you train the drivers, it only takes seconds to take the chains off and drive away if they are not needed.

With the exception of the "auto drop chains have their place" part, I'm in full agreement with you. For luck of the draw, or lack of luck...I've worked during a lot of snow storms. I worked Sunday night to Monday night of the December blizzard. I worked last Feb for the 20" snow fall in NYC and several other snow storms throughout the last few years. If there was more than a few inches of snow, the chains went on. No big deal. When it's time for them to come off, they come off quickly. Again, no big deal. When it comes to those auto-chains, they fill a useless void. You either need real chains of you don't need anything. Also, this talk about concern over driving on wet, plowed streets with chains, why worry? In the past 30 days there have been 3 decent storms that required we put chains on our apparatus in NYC. That's over 350 pieces of apparatus with chains on. In those collective 72 hours, those rigs probably responded to a collective 3500-4000 runs and I don't recall ONCE hearing about a rig "throwing a chain". It can't be that frequent an occurrence.

The auto chain is an expensive toy. Buy a good set of chains, be prepared and put them on early and be adequately prepared for a storm.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Taking them off ??? well the streets of Croton look pretty good, and yet, the Officers of my company have all agreed to leave them on for another day, as we have many long driveways and side streets, and its always our luck... Oh look the driveway was NOT PLOWED !!

M'ave - I can not speak for the poster, but I believe the " Tossing a chain " was referred to a cross link and not the whole chain... ( if that was what you were suggesting ) I have never seen that happen, but have seen many cross links break... and I am sure so does FDNY... unless they are getting all the good chain sets...

[wraftery 1,275]

Yes, I meant ONLY the crosslink

[M' Ave 1,466]

Taking them off ??? well the streets of Croton look pretty good, and yet, the Officers of my company have all agreed to leave them on for another day, as we have many long driveways and side streets, and its always our luck... Oh look the driveway was NOT PLOWED !!

M'ave - I can not speak for the poster, but I believe the " Tossing a chain " was referred to a cross link and not the whole chain... ( if that was what you were suggesting ) I have never seen that happen, but have seen many cross links break... and I am sure so does FDNY... unless they are getting all the good chain sets...

haha, well we don't get much "all good" anything! I have not seen that either though. As for driveways, well, no one in the South Bronx has one of them! That's something I don't see.

[ctEMT53 1]

At Darien EMS we have on spots on all 3 ambulances and we have a set of real tire chains for each also, we put the chains on at around 3-4 inches of snow. The chains work really well for us but we get a lot of use out of our on spots also after the storm when it is still pretty bad in the outer parts of town when we don't want to have to deal with the restrictions placed on the ambulance during transport with tire chains on. The rumble and bumping of the chains can be a hinderance to patient care.

[wraftery 1,275]

Well M'ave, I am in agreement with most of your posts, but this time we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think there is a time and place for onspots. Just a tool in the toolbox but I don't think they will match The Detroit Door Opener.

Now that I moved to Virginia, all I hear is "we don't get snow down here." This year we had 2@4" and 1@8" and the world shut sown for a week. I offered to my OTJ sons that I'd come to the firehouse and show them how to put chains on. They don't even own chains. And putting plows on garbage trucks is unheard of. Snow removal here is "wait a week or two."

[M' Ave 1,466]

Well M'ave, I am in agreement with most of your posts, but this time we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think there is a time and place for onspots. Just a tool in the toolbox but I don't think they will match The Detroit Door Opener.

Now that I moved to Virginia, all I hear is "we don't get snow down here." This year we had 2@4" and 1@8" and the world shut sown for a week. I offered to my OTJ sons that I'd come to the firehouse and show them how to put chains on. They don't even own chains. And putting plows on garbage trucks is unheard of. Snow removal here is "wait a week or two."

Well Chief, I value your opinion, regardless of my opposing viewpoint. What fun would this board be without a little competitive chatter! Gives it a good edge

I have some family just south of the Mason Dixen....boy, a little snow sure does stop the world! Enjoy the Cherry Blossoms in April! Hopefully February will take it a little easier on us.