FDNY Staffing

[16fire5 693]

some companies change there policy about the ov bringing the saw bcasue they thing it will delay him in doing his other duties. Since the roofman is going to the roof anyway....they assign the saw to him.

just out of curiousity what does asking the OV question will make a better engine man?

Not sure what your getting at here. The first roof FF brings the rope unless it's a FP MD. The roof FF should not take both the rope and the saw and if you don't believe me watch the video of the fire on Houston St. The second roof FF will bring their saw. If it's a top floor fire there's lots to do up on the roof I think the OV should go up there with the roof FF. I understand the concern about the delay but the OV can vent the top floor windows from the roof, drop down, or it will get done by the second OV. A very in shape young FF was killed a few years back when he fell from a roof with the rope and the saw.

[ny10570 745]

Not sure what your getting at here. The first roof FF brings the rope unless it's a FP MD. The roof FF should not take both the rope and the saw and if you don't believe me watch the video of the fire on Houston St. The second roof FF will bring their saw. If it's a top floor fire there's lots to do up on the roof I think the OV should go up there with the roof FF. I understand the concern about the delay but the OV can vent the top floor windows from the roof, drop down, or it will get done by the second OV. A very in shape young FF was killed a few years back when he fell from a roof with the rope and the saw.

Dany Pujdak in Brooklyn. He fell 50' to the sidewalk below while transitioning from the ladder to the parapet.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I believe Satalite engine companies have to have 5 men... 2 men respond with the satelite when cqalled.

No, no I don't think so. The satelite is a second piece, a hose wagon. I never goes anywhere without the engine. They have to have two ECC's but that's it.

[16fire5 693]

I believe Satalite engine companies have to have 5 men... 2 men respond with the satelite when cqalled.

72 Engine has 4 firefighters. When called with the satelite 2 firefighters ride the satelite.

[goon16 155]

Not sure what your getting at here. The first roof FF brings the rope unless it's a FP MD. The roof FF should not take both the rope and the saw and if you don't believe me watch the video of the fire on Houston St. The second roof FF will bring their saw. If it's a top floor fire there's lots to do up on the roof I think the OV should go up there with the roof FF. I understand the concern about the delay but the OV can vent the top floor windows from the roof, drop down, or it will get done by the second OV. A very in shape young FF was killed a few years back when he fell from a roof with the rope and the saw.

i wasnt trying to point anyone in the wrong direction. i was just stating that i have heard some companies have changed there policy. I remember the incident you are talking about. I agree with you, that you must bring the tools you are assigned to take.

[Guest squarewheels]

truckies better start humping some hose instead of steeping over it now that these engines dont have the door man to do it

[M' Ave 1,466]

truckies better start humping some hose instead of steeping over it now that these engines dont have the door man to do it

Well, sadly this won't be possible because truckies will have their hands full with a short handed company. With the elimination of the 5th man on all engines, there is a depleted pool with which to cover medical leave. On and average tour, about 1.5% of working members will take medical leave. This means they became ill during a tour or were injured at a fire. When this occurs, that members spot has been filled by taking the 5th man from one of the 5 man engine co's. Now, that member will be taken from a near-by ladder company. There goes the O/V!

This created quite a discussion at the kitchen table on Tuesday night. We were kicking around how our tactics would change without a man in this position. Does the roof-man complete his duties and (as long as it isn't a top floor of cockloft fire) drop down and VES opposite he hose-line? Well, now you have a vacant roof, not to mention the fact that it could take many minutes for him to get his work done on the roof. This would be opening the bulkhead door, taking skylight glass and doing a full perimeter report for the IC.

The second due O/V might be 30sec. to 2 min. behind. And thats a best case scenario. If you get a tower ladder as a second due unit, there won't be an O/V coming to the rear as they are in the bucket. Perhaps if that company was aware that you were shorthanded they could send a guy to the rear, but thats tough too. What if they O/V gets sent out at 3am and the job comes in at 3:30am. No time for notifications then!

This reduction in man-power throws us a curve-ball that we're still trying to work out. The O/V effects 70% of fire rescues. Pretty hard on the general public if that goes by the wayside.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Getting back to the Engine Co. cuts, if they loose the 5th man, then an Engine Co. will lose the "Control FF" position correct?

[16fire5 693]

Getting back to the Engine Co. cuts, if they loose the 5th man, then an Engine Co. will lose the "Control FF" position correct?

We are operating with out a "Door Firefighter". Our procedures assign the "Door" Firefighter's responsibilities to the Control. Which is obviously impossible for the firefighter to do both simultanously.

The engine lineup is as follows

Officer

Chauffeur

Nozzle

Back-up

Control

[M' Ave 1,466]

Getting back to the Engine Co. cuts, if they loose the 5th man, then an Engine Co. will lose the "Control FF" position correct?

The control man, while not the most glamorous, is the most important position in the engine. When the nozzle-man, Back-up and doorman(no longer) run off with their lengths, the control man continues to pull hose until enough has been pulled to leave a length for the fire floor. This must be done quickly while counting the number of lengths as they come off. One must estimate how many lengths are needed to get from the outlet to the interior stairs, then figure out how many floors they are taking the line up. Then, are they stretching in the well if the building has one? Once enough has been pulled (you have to figure this out, odds are the nozzle team isn't going to tell you when they're in place, they have enough to do) break the line off from the bed and give it to the chauffeur, telling him how many lengths you have out. Hopefully he's had enough time to get on a hydrant and is ready to go.

Estimating the correct number of lengths is essential to being able to swiftly perform the rest of your Control tasks. Flake out the line and chase the water up, pulling out kinks and flaking it out. If you have too much hose pulled, you're going to have a hard time will all the spaghetti in a tight tenement hallway. Of course, this is better than having too little....obviously stretching short is pretty much the worst thing ever.

The absence of a door man makes double work for the back-up man and the control man. One can no longer take up a good position at a doorway or turn in the hall to help advance the line. The two positions behind the nozzle must jump around a lot to insure that they line can advance. Once advancing steadily, the back-up is no longer free to leave the nozzleman, so this leaves the control man humping a lot of hose.

Hopefully the normally assigned second due engine isn't on another box, or you're looking at a bit more time operating that line alone! It doesn't take much more than one other box out in the area to delay incoming companies by several extra minutes. LONG extra minutes.

Edited February 4, 2011 by M' Ave

[CBX4627 114]

The control man, while not the most glamorous, is the most important position in the engine.

Sorry Brother, you are mistaken...............Most important position in the engine is the Chauffer......................Without any WATER, the Control Man's job is USELESS!

[Dinosaur 844]

Sorry Brother, you are mistaken...............Most important position in the engine is the Chauffer......................Without any WATER, the Control Man's job is USELESS!

Can't we just agree that they're ALL important?

[Alpinerunner 61]

M'Ave, thanks for all your insight. It's interesting to learn how the FDNY does things. However, if there is a nozzleman, a backup, and a door/control, what is the officer doing?

[M' Ave 1,466]

Sorry Brother, you are mistaken...............Most important position in the engine is the Chauffer......................Without any WATER, the Control Man's job is USELESS!

What's up bro, you got the seat or something? Typical, bitter ECC....pissed because they have to hook-up and look-up

Kidding aside, it's very true. The importance of the ECC that is. A lot rests on one guys shoulders, in terms of finding a good hydrant, getting close to it without blocking out a truck's front-of-building access and getting water. If you gotta go hunting for an often hard to find standpipe connection, you've got even more to worry about.

[mfc2257 464]

M'Ave, thanks for all your insight. It's interesting to learn how the FDNY does things. However, if there is a nozzleman, a backup, and a door/control, what is the officer doing?

I'm not familiar with FDNY SOP/SOG, but I would have to assume that the officer is outside and has established command until a B/C arrives....

M'Ave, if my guess is correct, who does the officer fall in with when the B/C arrives and assumes command? The B/C has an aide, so does the engine officer join their crew? Become the division officer for the fire floor?

Edited February 4, 2011 by mfc2257