FDNY Staffing

[Guest fdnyladder10]

I was reading a reference about FDNY staffing on its engines, and have a question on the interpretation i have;

Lets take engine A and and engine B.

Engine A has to have 5 FFs when staffing permits.

Engine B must start the tour with 5 FF's.

My interpretation of this is that if Engine A starts a tour with 4 FF's, and Engine B has 5 FF,s (because they have to start the tour with 5 FF's),

Does the 5th FF then drop off Engine B and go to Engine A to bring their staffing to 5 FF's, (because they have to have 5 FF's where staffing permits..)

Would this be correct or am i of the mark...

Many thanks.

[PEMO3 523]

I was reading a reference about FDNY staffing on its engines, and have a question on the interpretation i have;

Lets take engine A and and engine B.

Engine A has to have 5 FFs when staffing permits.

Engine B must start the tour with 5 FF's.

My interpretation of this is that if Engine A starts a tour with 4 FF's, and Engine B has 5 FF,s (because they have to start the tour with 5 FF's),

Does the 5th FF then drop off Engine B and go to Engine A to bring their staffing to 5 FF's, (because they have to have 5 FF's where staffing permits..)

Would this be correct or am i of the mark...

Many thanks.

I think this excerpt may help you : "Under the UFA contract, of the city's 194 engine companies, 134 are staffed with four firefighters and 49 are staffed with five - if medical leave rates stay below 7.5%. Another 11 companies are always staffed with five firefighters, regardless of the medical leave numbers." (FDNY Restorse Engine Company Staffing Levels, January 4, 2010, http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/fdny-restores-engine-company).

[lt411 145]

I was reading a reference about FDNY staffing on its engines, and have a question on the interpretation i have;

Lets take engine A and and engine B.

Engine A has to have 5 FFs when staffing permits.

Engine B must start the tour with 5 FF's.

My interpretation of this is that if Engine A starts a tour with 4 FF's, and Engine B has 5 FF,s (because they have to start the tour with 5 FF's),

Does the 5th FF then drop off Engine B and go to Engine A to bring their staffing to 5 FF's, (because they have to have 5 FF's where staffing permits..)

Would this be correct or am i of the mark...

Many thanks.

The active-duty FDNY members may be able to add to this (and correct an old retired guy), but there are basically three (3) category of engine companies, as far as staffing (can't say MANning, as that would be politically incorrect). Group A engines consist of sixty companies throughout the city, picked due to being: high-activity; single companies; high rise area;target-hazards first due;etc. These 60 engines would start the tour w/ 5 firefighters (unless medical-leave usage city-wide is above a certain percentage.

Group B engines start w/ 5 firefighters if there are surplus firefighters after group A is taken care of.

Group C engines are almost always at 4 men (OUCH- can't say men- I mean firefighters).

Remember that all ladder companies;rescue companies;squad companies;haz-tech engine companies start the tour w/ 5 firefighters (haz-Mat co.1 and marine companies are different).

After the start of the tour, if anyone goes on medical leave, the manning (sorry-staffing) becomes like a chess game, where DSCO (division staffing control office) at HQ moves people around.

At the end of this month the city is stating that they will take away the Roster staffing agreement, which basically means that all engine companies will be at four firefighters per shift. The UFA will contest this, but it will be tied up in the courts or arbitration for a long,long time.

Maybe M'Ave can add to this and correct any errors.

Hope this clarifies things.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I was reading a reference about FDNY staffing on its engines, and have a question on the interpretation i have;

Lets take engine A and and engine B.

Engine A has to have 5 FFs when staffing permits.

Engine B must start the tour with 5 FF's.

My interpretation of this is that if Engine A starts a tour with 4 FF's, and Engine B has 5 FF,s (because they have to start the tour with 5 FF's),

Does the 5th FF then drop off Engine B and go to Engine A to bring their staffing to 5 FF's, (because they have to have 5 FF's where staffing permits..)

Would this be correct or am i of the mark...

Many thanks.

You are correct. If one of the 60 Eng. Co's designated to have a 5th Fr. is short they will take any extra guy from any company that is over for the tour. That includes taking the 5th guy from a 4 man company.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I think this excerpt may help you : "Under the UFA contract, of the city's 194 engine companies, 134 are staffed with four firefighters and 49 are staffed with five - if medical leave rates stay below 7.5%. Another 11 companies are always staffed with five firefighters, regardless of the medical leave numbers." (FDNY Restorse Engine Company Staffing Levels, January 4, 2010, http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/fdny-restores-engine-company).

What are the 11 companies always at 5?

[Guest fdnyladder10]

You are correct. If one of the 60 Eng. Co's designated to have a 5th Fr. is short they will take any extra guy from any company that is over for the tour. That includes taking the 5th guy from a 4 man company.

Cheers guys, i imagine that life is a lot better on an engine that must have 5 FF's regardless of staffing, as oppposed to an engine that starts with 5 and then someone gets shifted out to top up another engine, i know where i would rather be!!!

However, its not mentioned in the story link, but as mentioned in this read, are the 5 FF engines been abolished at the end of this month then?? Crazy!

[CFD320 35]

Cheers guys, i imagine that life is a lot better on an engine that must have 5 FF's regardless of staffing, as oppposed to an engine that starts with 5 and then someone gets shifted out to top up another engine, i know where i would rather be!!!

However, its not mentioned in the story link, but as mentioned in this read, are the 5 FF engines been abolished at the end of this month then?? Crazy!

No, as of now no companies will be closed but "A level manning" will become 4FF for all 194 Engine companies. This effectively eliminates 60 Firemen per tour which is equivalent (headcount wise) to closing 12 5 man engines each tour.

Edited January 25, 2011 by CFD320

[Guest fdnyladder10]

No, as of now no companies will be closed but "A level manning" will become 4FF for all 194 Engine companies. This effectively eliminates 60 Firemen which is equivalent (headcount wise) to closing 12 5 man engines each tour.

Well serving FDNY guys all the best and good luck in the fight to get the 5th FF position back. I had no idea this was in the pipeline.

[FireMedic049 597]

You are correct. If one of the 60 Eng. Co's designated to have a 5th Fr. is short they will take any extra guy from any company that is over for the tour. That includes taking the 5th guy from a 4 man company.

Just for clarification because I've read conflicting and sometimes confusing things regarding this, is the "5th FF" actually the 5th person in a 5-person company or are they the 5th firefighter in a 6-person company (5 FFs & 1 Officer)?

[JBE 328]

5th man=5th FF

[FireMedic049 597]

5th man=5th FF

Thanks, but that didn't quite clear things up.

Were you trying to say that an Engine Company with a "5th FF" is a 5-person company?

[Mac8146 61]

Here is what it is 4 man engine is 4ff and 1 officer, 5 man engine is 5ff and 1 officer.

[FireMedic049 597]

Here is what it is 4 man engine is 4ff and 1 officer, 5 man engine is 5ff and 1 officer.

Thanks.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Cheers guys, i imagine that life is a lot better on an engine that must have 5 FF's regardless of staffing, as oppposed to an engine that starts with 5 and then someone gets shifted out to top up another engine, i know where i would rather be!!!

However, its not mentioned in the story link, but as mentioned in this read, are the 5 FF engines been abolished at the end of this month then?? Crazy!

Well, I'm sure everyone would rather be in their assigned company. However, working with 4 Fr and an officer is certainly not as good as having a 5th Fr.

I have heard the word that all engines will go to 4 Fr come Feb.1st, but I know the union is fighting this hard. This will open a can of worms operationally. When members are injured or get sick during a tour (With almost 2,000 guys working at once, it's bound to happen) the 5th Fr. is pulled from one of those 60 companys and sent to another firehouse to fill out that company with an injured member. Without the 5th man, they will take a person from a ladder company. That means that trucks will run without the O/V position. NOT GOOD!

Edited January 25, 2011 by M' Ave

[osufire90 18]

Hey guys...probably a dumb question, but what is the 'tour'? Is it just the shift on any particular day or is it a set of shifts?

[16fire5 693]

A, B, and C refer to staffing levels. Companies are catagorized in Groups 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Group 1

Ladders, Rescues, Squads, Haz Tech Engines

Always start the tour with 5 FF

Group 2

49 engine companies that start the tour with 5FF but are reduced when ML is up.

Group 3

The 11 engine companies that keep the 5th FF even when ML is over 7.5%

Group 4

The engines not in group 2 or 3.

Group 5

Marine Companies and HMC 1.

When staffing is Level C every engine has 4 FF and that is what is slated to begin the first week of Feb.

A, B, and C companies is what companies where catagorized by during the rotation.

[nfd2004 750]

Hey guys...probably a dumb question, but what is the 'tour'? Is it just the shift on any particular day or is it a set of shifts?

"Tour" is the shift. One shift only.

[turk132 9]

What are the 11 companies always at 5?

Not sure of the rest of the Divisions,

Division 7 - E42

Division 6 - E69, E92

[helicopper 1,050]

Well, I'm sure everyone would rather be in their assigned company. However, working with 4 Fr and an officer is certainly not as good as having a 5th Fr.

I have heard the word that all engines will go to 4 Fr come Feb.1st, but I know the union is fighting this hard. This will open a can of worms operationally. When members are injured or get sick during a tour (With almost 2,000 guys working at once, it's bound to happen) the 5th Fr. is pulled from one of those 60 companys and sent to another firehouse to fill out that company with an injured member. Without the 5th man, they will take a person from a ladder company. That means that trucks will run without the O/V position. NOT GOOD!

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

[Guest bagbros]

I guess that 4 firefighters on a rig is always better than just 1 "supplemental" firefighter.

[antiquefirelt 994]

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

OV=Outside Vent position. This is a very critical position given the task of venting ahead of the search or fire attack crews. Obviously, M'Ave or others can elaborate much more on the OV's duties for FDNY, but my understand of their duties is would make it very difficult to lose this seat on any tour. Given such detailed SOP's and the tactics based on these, losing any positions on the fireground would seem to really be damaging to overall safety for both FDNY personnel and the citizens they're protecting.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

I think I can pipe in an answer on this one.

O/V=Outside Vent

The OV does VES (Vent-Enter-Search one of the more risky propositions on the fireground), and also gets on the fire escapes or a ground ladder opposite the attack line and vents when the line officer from the engine calls for it.

That's just the basics as I understand them....

Edit: ahh Chief beat me too it...

Edited January 25, 2011 by efdcapt115

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think I can pipe in an answer on this one.

O/V=Outside Vent

The OV does VES (Vent-Enter-Search one of the more risky propositions on the fireground), and also gets on the fire escapes or a ground ladder opposite the attack line and vents when the line officer from the engine calls for it.

That's just the basics as I understand them....

Edit: ahh Chief beat me too it...

Good points added here though, the OV is part of the outside team, thus the OV performs VES and any ladder rescues normally would see assistance from the OV FF.

[goon16 155]

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

The O/v position is also know as the outside Vent Man. Usually this position is for the most senior guy in the truck. He is responsiable for VES (Vent Enter Search) from the outside. He will make his way to the fire floor via the fire escape, ariel ladder ot the bucket. He will ask permission to VES on the fire floor from the boss who is in the fire apartment. The reason for this is so it is in conjuction with the nozzle team. And so he doesnt vent too soon or too late. He will enter the fire apartment and conduct a search. His tools consist of a hook and a hailgan. If it is a tower ladder operation he is resonable for operation of the bucket from the controls in the bucket and the chauf on the turn table. If the job is in a high eise he is resonable for operating fireman service in the elevator and getting the members to the floor below. But there are some other circumstances in which operating at a high rise and the job is on a floor low enough to be reached by a portable or the areial ladder or bucket he will operate how he would at a tenament or brownstone. hope this helps

This is coming from an engine man any truckies can add if i missed anything.

ahh you all beat me

Edited January 25, 2011 by goon16

[M' Ave 1,466]

"Goon16" pretty much covered the position. A couple of quick points; the O/V position is usually reserved for someone with more seniority. You might start working this position on day tours and then move into night tours when there is seniority on the back-step to help you out. The o/v is often operating alone and left to make a lot of decisions. It's a real utility position, a lot of variables. In a lot of instances, the O/V is teamed with the LCC (chauffeur). This position will often offer the first look at the "3-side" and will communicate with the I.C. to relay information.

[Mac8146 61]

Tour is night tour 6:00PM to 9:00AM 15 hours or 9:00AM to 6:00PM Day tour 9 hours, if a member taps out then a member is pulled from nearest 5ff engine, if there are no more 5ff engines then nearest ladder will lose 5th ff, usually OV which is the outside vent man, responsible for ventilation from exterior usually opposite fire entrance like a fire escape window or off ladder. OV conducts searches and other duties. Also depending on what type of ladder apparatus he is working in the OV position does change. Tower Ladder OV usually in bucket, Tillerman is usually OV in Tiller Apparatus.

[DMA327 12]

In some departments the OV will also help out the roof man (depending on the building) and bring the saw up to the roof for a top floor job. Depending on time of day and occupancy though 1st due OV may think about VES at 3 in the morning instead of the saw b/c the 2nd due truck, rescue, and squad are right up his A$$. Let circumstances dictate procedures but always be guided by SOP's and experience!!! OV can be a difficult position and may sometimes be a waiting game...But the OV is always making split second decisions so be ready to think on your toes. AND don't ever be shy to ask the OV where he went, how he got there, what he did, and how it worked out. If you wanna be a good engine man always ask the OV questions. If you know where he's going, you'll know where the line is going and make things much safer for everybody

Edited January 25, 2011 by DMA327

[turk132 9]

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

Outside Vent firefighter

[goon16 155]

In some departments the OV will also help out the roof man (depending on the building) and bring the saw up to the roof for a top floor job. Depending on time of day and occupancy though 1st due OV may think about VES at 3 in the morning instead of the saw b/c the 2nd due truck, rescue, and squad are right up his A$$. Let circumstances dictate procedures but always be guided by SOP's and experience!!! OV can be a difficult position and may sometimes be a waiting game...But the OV is always making split second decisions so be ready to think on your toes. AND don't ever be shy to ask the OV where he went, how he got there, what he did, and how it worked out. If you wanna be a good engine man always ask the OV questions. If you know where he's going, you'll know where the line is going and make things much safer for everybody

some companies change there policy about the ov bringing the saw bcasue they thing it will delay him in doing his other duties. Since the roofman is going to the roof anyway....they assign the saw to him.

just out of curiousity what does asking the OV question will make a better engine man?

[lt411 145]

For those of us not familiar, what is the O/V position?

Thanks,

Chris

In the FDNY, The OV position is the "outside vent" firefighter. There are five firefighters in a ladder comapny at the start of the tour, in addition to the officer (lieutenant or captain). The positions are as follows: LCC- ladder company chauffeur, usually one of the most senior men; "Roof man"- another senior position- objective is to do vertical vent from the roof, and then drop down above the fire for search;"OV"- search fire area from the outside (via fire escape;portable ladder; aerial ladder;) to provide another way into the apt.-does ventilation and search/rescue; inside team- officer; "can man" (usually junior man, w/ 2-1/2 gal water extinguisher and 6 ft hook ;"irons man" -w/halligan tool and flathead axe and hydra-ram (bunny tool). They enter from interior and search for fire and victims.

Second due ladder takes the floor above, and the outside positions team up w/ 1st due truck members. EVERYBODY, in all positions (engines;trucks;rescues;squads;etc) has their own radio ("handie-talkie") for safety and coordination of assignments. The fact that FDNY has SOP's for all the differnet types of bldgs. encountered, makes things go much smoother (everything is relative,of course).

Hope this helps