Is 343 An Incorrect Number?

[x635 4,066]

Everyone cites "343" as the number of firefighters lost on 9/11.

However, firefighters routinely are dying acutely because of their responding and working this incident, and don't their deaths count as well? What about the two FDNY firefighters who died while fighting a fire in a building damaged on 9/11?

Personally, I think "343" is a low number, and tragically, almost 10 years later, it is still growing. A lot of firefighters sacrificed their lives to save others at this incident, some died instantly, and some had to suffer through illness and PTSD and then die.

I don't mean to be gory or disrespectful, just wanted to shed some light on this and see what others thought.

[x129K 1,393]

I have hated that number since Day 1...it is very misleading...

I feel for the people who tattoo'ed that number on their bodies.

[ajsbear 11]

I believe that an additional 994 first responders, FD and PD have died since.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I believe that an additional 994 first responders, FD and PD have died since.

That is incredible. I think history may re-write the number. Right now, with people still dying, the number won't be revised. However, I think this is the case with many wars, the initial number is the one that gets quoted. The majority of the public, especially outside the NYC area, probably don't even know people are still dying.

My bet is that as history is written, the true total will come out, but it won't eclipse the initial number in terms of "popularity" / the number in peoples heads. It will just be an "*" in books.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Alpinerunner

[ny10570 745]

The 343 is very significant for the impact of that moment. What happened that day. The scores of people who have and will continue to suffer the effects of working there that day is only different in the sheer number. There was a massive fire at a Bell Atlantic property in manhattan years ago (sorry, on my phone can't look up the details) that a possible cancer cluster due to a massive exposure to asbestos and vaporized metals. At the time pulmonary function tests didn't exist and firefighters rarely wore breathing protection so the real damage will never be known.

For 9/11 the real death toll will also never be tallied. The majority of the people exposed also regularly expose themselves to a host of carcinogens every day. Construction workers, especially iron workers already have higher rates than average of a variety of illnesses. Every year it seems like there's a new study about just how unhealthy firefighting is.

Now keep in mind I am 100% behind the Zadroga act. It fills a serious gap in health coverage that people should already have, but when someone comes down with xyz cancer is it because of 6 months on the pile or 20 years of smoke filled hallways, sooty PPE and diesel exhaust?

[Goose 188]

The department chaplain and 2 FDNY Paramedics (Carlos Lillo & Ricardo Quinn) are included in the 343.

As of this past september, it sounds like 900 FD, EMS and PD members have died of 9/11 related illness (cancer, pulmonary disorders, etc).

Edited January 19, 2011 by Goose

[PEMO3 523]

There was a massive fire at a Bell Atlantic property in manhattan years ago (sorry, on my phone can't look up the details) that a possible cancer cluster due to a massive exposure to asbestos and vaporized metals. At the time pulmonary function tests didn't exist and firefighters rarely wore breathing protection so the real damage will never be known.

Are you talking about the fire at 204 Second Ave on February 27, 1975 that took out their switching center along with most phone service in the New York Metro area?

[joetnymedic 43]

994 more dead from this thing and it's still not a final number. While 343 is the initial number the present number that is going to keep growing should be reported and yes, many people who are not from the city or NY probably dont know and thats a shame. Not to sound just as bad as the idiots that hit us on our own soil, I'm sorry to say I personally feel we should just drop a nice big bomb on their tuff and make a nice big parking lot. I know it sounds wrong and it sounds vengeful and yes there are people there who had nothing to do with it, but I for one and I know others that feel the same way, have a lot of hate and bitterness over not only 9/11 but the way we went back at the perps responsible. I'll probably get a call or an email for posting this, but (and some of you on here know about this incident) the feds knew some of the other people involved and were told to stand down, not apprehend and just watch them. WTF. We should have locked them all the hell up. And dont give me the bs that we should give people a chance because all those who died that day and afterward didnt get the benefit of doubt or a chance themselves. Yup still hot about it 10 years later

[x635 4,066]

It's not only cancer. Severe PTSD and suicide is often a cause not thought about.

[RWC130 594]

Very Good Point "343" and rising...

It's important we remember our BROTHER FIREFIGHTERS and

ALL Emergency Responders who answered the call for help that day.

Forever In Our Hearts

SEPTEMBER 11, 2001

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Does 343 include the Fire Marshal (Ron Bucca) that was killed?

Its also tragic that people tend to ignore the other law enforcement (other than NYPD and PAPD) who were killed that day too.

The following law enforcement agencies lost LEOs in the attacks:

NY State Office of Court Administration lost a Captain and 2 Senior Officers

NY State Office of Tax Enforcement lost an Assistant Commissioner, a Bureau Chief and 3 Investigators

FBI lost a Special Agent

US Dept. of Interior lost a Refuge Manager

US Secret Service lost a Master Special Officer

[IzzyEng4 427]

343 is a correct number!!!!!! How can anyone even question that???? It is the initial number of FDNY personnel that were murdered, yes I said murdered just like everyone else who perished on September 11, 2001. We shouldn't even be discussing this. Here is the list of those FDNY personnel who were murdered on that horrific day: http://www.fdnylodd.com/9-11-Never-Forget/Memorials/343-Firefighters.html

Yes, FM Ron Bucca is counted on being murdered on that day as well.

As for those passing from their injuries sustained from that awful day, they should be considered LODDs. It doesn't matter if it was yesterday or 10 years ago, these men and women that are suffering today should have all the benefits that are deserved. The other thing that all these "so called experts" won't tell you what caused the cancer in the first responders, it's "concrete poisoning" from the dust. And those tiny particles of dust act like our good old friend asbestos when it enters your lungs. Everyone was worried about the asbestos in the air, but that was a minuscule amount compared to the concrete dust produced by both collapses.

Unfortunately there are going to be many more people suffering over the next several years because of the events of 9/11. I don't thing the initial numbers of those FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and NYFP personnel murdered on that day should be changed, the meaning would be lost. However I do strongly believe that anyone who passed from any sort of injury sustained on that day should be added to the memorial and listed as loosing their lifer due to injuries sustained on that day.

Unfortunately, there never be an "end" number in my opinion.

[FPNY0467 5]

Don't forget K. Roma Fire Patrol # 2 who die on 9/11/01 and was never counted in the 343.

[ex-commish 490]

Were any members of the Armed Forces killed also? Would they count as responders?

[calhobs 110]

Intersting stats as of July 2002, some are estimates, some seem real, and some we may question. All are very grim and disturbing, But intersting one is the one that states How Many Fire Fighters on Leave for Respitory Problems.

"9/11 by the Numbers

Death, destruction, charity, salvation, war, money, real estate, spouses, babies, and other September 11 statistics"

http://nymag.com/new...ear/numbers.htm

HFD according to stats of this article no active Armed Forces where killed.

Edited January 20, 2011 by calhobs

[ny10570 745]

Are you talking about the fire at 204 Second Ave on February 27, 1975 that took out their switching center along with most phone service in the New York Metro area?

Thats the one. One edit, it wasn't so much asbestos, but PVC that was the main culprit. In the WTC and every fire we face PVC and pages of other synthetic plastics are what is burning. Here's the Daily News article about it...

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2004/03/14/2004-03-14_three_decades_after_an_infam.html

[NJMedic 96]

Don't forget K. Roma Fire Patrol # 2 who die on 9/11/01 and was never counted in the 343.

343 reflects the number of FDNY employees that were killed, not just firefighters. This includes the two paramedics, Father Judge, FM Ron Bucca, and First Deputy Commissioner William M. Feehan, who I think is technical a civilain position.

Keith Roma was employeed by the NY Board of Fire Underwriters. I tend to think if people had clearer thoughts in the days after the WTC they would have included him.

There are plenty of FDNY Firefighters who would disgustingly argue that the medics should not be counted but it is hard to make the arguement but keep Father Judge included in the 343.

[RocklandFires 44]

343 reflects the number of FDNY employees that were killed, not just firefighters. This includes the two paramedics, Father Judge, FM Ron Bucca, and First Deputy Commissioner William M. Feehan, who I think is technical a civilain position.

Keith Roma was employeed by the NY Board of Fire Underwriters. I tend to think if people had clearer thoughts in the days after the WTC they would have included him.

There are plenty of FDNY Firefighters who would disgustingly argue that the medics should not be counted but it is hard to make the arguement but keep Father Judge included in the 343.

I know at least 1 FDNY Firefighter that has a tattoo that says 341.

[mercurygrandmarquis1 0]

Are private/Volley EMTs or Paramedics included in the related illness category? what about the mutual aid from out of the city are they included too? IMHO to not include non-FDNY/NYPD/PAPD personnel in the related illness category is very misleading.

[Goose 188]

There were 340 FDNY firefighters killed, the Chaplin and 2 FDNY Paramedics that totals to 343. My issue is that its alway's 343 firemen. The 3 men included in the FDNY numbers should be remembered for their individual and unique contributions and not falsely categorized.

Getting into the civilian MOS is a whole different issue and part of the reason why i made it a point to put some names and faces to a thread i made on or shortly before 9/11 in the EMS section. They are all too often overlooked/forgotten.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Goose

[ny10570 745]

Come on now, 343 is a symbol. Saying 343 firefighters, paramedics, chaplains, and deputy commissioners is a wee bit wordy and quite frankly stupid. I personally don't care who's included and who's not nor do I see the point of this nit picking. 302, 456, 109 are all shocking and the worst loss of first responders in a single incident. Yes 411 would be a better number as that includes everyone who responded that day, but in the end 343 is the number that became stuck in everyone's collective conscious. Without googling it, who can tell me how many lives were lost that day? Do the exact number take away from the horror of that day? Is 341 a tolerable number while 343 or 411 or 2977 is suddenly a tragedy?? Maybe its just me, but I have yet to meet the family wether it be civilian or PD that were bothered by 343 being the oft referenced number.

Mercury, everyone who lived down there, worked down there, and did even a single hour of time at or near the pile, the barges, fresh kills, etc has been asked to register and come in for annual medical monitoring. Any of these people found to have at least one of over 20 different medical and mental conditions after 9/11 are offered treatment.