Retaliation

[hudson144 150]

U.S Equal Employment Oppurtunity Commission (EEOC):

Retaliation & Work Situations

The law forbids retaliation when it comes to any aspect of employment,including hiring,firing,pay,"JOB ASSIGNMENTS" promotions,layoffs,training,fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.

[Bnechis 3,961]

U.S Equal Employment Oppurtunity Commission (EEOC):

Retaliation & Work Situations

The law forbids retaliation when it comes to any aspect of employment,including hiring,firing,pay,"JOB ASSIGNMENTS" promotions,layoffs,training,fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.

I believe you have to take the 40 hour "how to manage your local fire dept" course to recieve that information.

[Faded Soul 6]

Where would one find this information... does it cover anything else? Work place violence... any kind of harassment as well?

Bnechis- there's really such a course? Seriously... and is it only for paid? It should be offered to Paid AND volunteer FDs if so.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Where would one find this information... does it cover anything else? Work place violence... any kind of harassment as well?

Bnechis- there's really such a course? Seriously... and is it only for paid? It should be offered to Paid AND volunteer FDs if so.

The info is available from the EEOC, and workplace violence info from OSHA.

The course I was refering to is an inside "joke", it only qualifies personnel to run 1 dept.

The reallity is most depts are multimillion dollar corporations (even the volunteer depts) and need qualified managers to operate them.

A dept with 2 stations, 3 engines, 1 tower ladder & a rescue has an investment of at least $15,000,000 not including personnel (plus there time, training, etc.).

How many corporations are run by unqualified managers?

How many CEO's have a formal education?

How many fire chiefs?

I am not implying that those coming up thru the ranks can not make excellent fire chiefs, but do they make excellent managers?

[Faded Soul 6]

The info is available from the EEOC, and workplace violence info from OSHA.

The course I was refering to is an inside "joke", it only qualifies personnel to run 1 dept.

The reallity is most depts are multimillion dollar corporations (even the volunteer depts) and need qualified managers to operate them.

A dept with 2 stations, 3 engines, 1 tower ladder & a rescue has an investment of at least $15,000,000 not including personnel (plus there time, training, etc.).

How many corporations are run by unqualified managers?

How many CEO's have a formal education?

How many fire chiefs?

I am not implying that those coming up thru the ranks can not make excellent fire chiefs, but do they make excellent managers?

Well... why should it be a joke. There should be stricter and tougher standards on education for those that are in charge. It shouldn't matter paid of volunteer (and many boast of being an 'unpaid professional'- a term I think is at times thrown around to casually, because I find it highly doubtful some departments have NO CONCEPT of a 'professionalism'.) But I've posted a few times on stating how Chiefs, Lts, Capts and what not NEED HIGHER EDUCATION and experience other than being a fire fighter (mostly the vol. departments). It should be a standard that you have AT LEAST a 2 year degree from an accredited college ( You don't have to work in degree field. But it shows to an employer your not some dopey drop out, or to a town official you know where to go to find things.) So I think it would be important for various officers in a dept to have years and years of experience before they take the step of being a chief... or an Lt, or capt... I think they should also have an degree (Associates at the least). Again... I think that you fail your own people/department when you don't have any higher education ( associates or more). It's more of a mistake if you can't manage people on a small scale, than what makes someone worthy of becoming a chief or officer in ANY department...

[Faded Soul 6]

And I keep pushing the issue on education ( other than fire-matics and what not) Because I feel you should be some sort of well rounded about a variety of topics. So maybe some politician or someone lay person with a background, good head on their shoulders and an education will come around and push for legislation to have a better education standard for volly and paid departments... not just fire training and hands on. But something of a scholarly endeavor.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Well... why should it be a joke. There should be stricter and tougher standards on education for those that are in charge. It shouldn't matter paid of volunteer (and many boast of being an 'unpaid professional'- a term I think is at times thrown around to casually, because I find it highly doubtful some departments have NO CONCEPT of a 'professionalism'.) But I've posted a few times on stating how Chiefs, Lts, Capts and what not NEED HIGHER EDUCATION and experience other than being a fire fighter (mostly the vol. departments). It should be a standard that you have AT LEAST a 2 year degree from an accredited college ( You don't have to work in degree field. But it shows to an employer your not some dopey drop out, or to a town official you know where to go to find things.) So I think it would be important for various officers in a dept to have years and years of experience before they take the step of being a chief... or an Lt, or capt... I think they should also have an degree (Associates at the least). Again... I think that you fail your own people/department when you don't have any higher education ( associates or more). It's more of a mistake if you can't manage people on a small scale, than what makes someone worthy of becoming a chief or officer in ANY department...

I think you're aware, civil service has come up with a way for people that do work like firefighting to prove they're competent to be promoted and lead. It's called the focused "competitive exam." Not having a college degree sometimes means people went straight into the workforce. Some of us were employed with civil service as young as 21. College didn't show me how to operate the pumps, the fire academy did. My officers showed me how to be one; and I tried my best to be as good as some of them were.

The "inside joke" is one city fire chief.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

PS: If somebody is getting bounced from an assignment and it feels like "retaliation", make sure it's well documented, then grieve it.

[ajsbear 11]

I think you're aware, civil service has come up with a way for people that do work like firefighting to prove they're competent to be promoted and lead. It's called the focused "competitive exam." Not having a college degree sometimes means people went straight into the workforce. Some of us were employed with civil service as young as 21. College didn't show me how to operate the pumps, the fire academy did. My officers showed me how to be one; and I tried my best to be as good as some of them were.

The "inside joke" is one city fire chief.

Would that be a current city chief how took classes in "how to be a chief in 3 easy lessens?"

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Would that be a current city chief how took classes in "how to be a chief in 3 easy lessens?"

From what I understand....right down to the spelling

[wraftery 1,275]

From what I understand....right down to the spelling

That's it! Spelling! The city council thought they were making him Chef of Department.

Now it's starting to make sense.

[sqd47bfd 20]

It should be a standard that you have AT LEAST a 2 year degree from an accredited college ( You don't have to work in degree field. But it shows to an employer your not some dopey drop out, or to a town official you know where to go to find things.)

Sorry, but this argument is flawed.

Going to college doesnt equate to being better.

A tart is a tart, know matter how many years they went to a place of higher learning.

[FireMedic049 597]

The "inside joke" is one city fire chief.

It's more than just "one".

There are many graduates of that course out there.

[FireMedic049 597]

Sorry, but this argument is flawed.

Going to college doesnt equate to being better.

A tart is a tart, know matter how many years they went to a place of higher learning.

Sorry, but your counter argument is flawed too.

A college education in many occupations does equate to being "better". Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant & Engineer are a few that come to mind right away.

You are right that a college education may not make someone a "better" firefighter or company officer no matter how long they spend in school. However, the converse can also be true. Some people, no matter how great a firefighter/company officer or how long as one will automatically make them a "better" Fire Chief. They may be prepared to lead a scene or be able to make other operational type decisions, but 20+ years on the front lines may not prepare them for the rest of the job, like preparing budgets, directly dealing with city officials, writing grant proposals, preparing and delivering presentations to acquire additional or protect current department resources,etc.

I think there's a legitimate argument for a Fire Chief to have some degree of college level education.

[PEMO3 523]

Unfortunately there are many out there that are book smart and street illiterate. While I will be the first to say there is a lot of plus behind a college education and/or degree it should not be the only measure of a true manager. We have all seen the book smart "leader" with the personal skills of recluse who couldn't motivate a dog to go for a walk let alone a work force.

Edited January 16, 2011 by PEMO3

[DDixie 12]

Sorry, but this argument is flawed.

Going to college doesnt equate to being better.

A tart is a tart, know matter how many years they went to a place of higher learning.

Case in point right here: A higher level education may not make you a better firefighter or department chief, however it will better

prepare you for the requirements of your job. I'm only picking on (replied to) this entry because it emphasizes my point. A college education

better refines one's ability to communicate properly. It enables a person think from many different viewpoints that are gathered by having participated

in a college learning environment and the core classes it mandates. For example below:

"Sorry, but this argument is flawed. Going to college doesn't equate to being better than anyone else. A tart is a tart regardless of

the number of years a person went to a place of higher learning." (there is a difference).

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think there's a legitimate argument for a Fire Chief to have some degree of college level education.

My thoughts on this is that the City/Municipality or otherwise should test, interview and determine what it is they want and not necessarily use the sheepskin as a way of determining qualification. For example, a large metro area Fire Chief most likely will spend far less time on the fireground and much more time in meetings, budget hearings, and personnel issues. Whereas a smaller FD, may require the Fire Chief be the IC at most structure fires. Of course many Chief can do both well, but probably not as many as there are FD"s needing Chief's.

Does a college degree automatically make you a better public speaker? No. Are you better at math than people without a degree? Not all. Very often the degree indicates a well rounded candidate, but often we need more acute knowledge. So while I'm by no means against higher education, I do feel candidates should be hired based on the abilities/skills they can prove, not those pieces of paper that say we spent a lot of money and achieved a minimum score. Let's not forget so many near illiterate sports figures have degrees!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Case in point right here: It enables a person think from many different viewpoints that are gathered by having participated

in a college learning environment and the core classes it mandates.

Nice post. Let's rename this thread Proper Grammatical Phrasing. Now you get a red check mark for the above quoted sentence. You left out a "to, too or two" Sorry, but your perfect 4.0 GPA has just been affected. j/k

I respect college edumucated folk. My sis and brother-in-law both hold Phd's. Heck, she did two years in China and speaks Mandarin. She'd be a great FD liaison, or a cop in a Chinatown community. But they both teach in Seattle.

Let's just say the skills you need; like how to properly phrase a sentence are grade level skills, no? High school used to prepare people for this world. Now it's just a launching pad for the next level. I think computers have leveled the playing field for "no-degree'ers" a bit...lol

A Good Chief, if he or she happens to be college educated as well, good for them. But "Good Chiefing" skills cannot be taught in my opinion. Budgeting, yes. Public Speaking? We get it at Flips. Tactical Considerations for a fire ground chief, yes. But in the end you either got it, or you don't. And a "good senior firefighter" could tell you in two seconds if his/her Chief is worth their salt.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

It's more than just "one".

There are many graduates of that course out there.

I hope you don't mind me asking if someone can expand a bit about this course. How is it being used; to bypass civil service rules? No names needed, just an explanation of what the hell is going on with this thing. Don't tell me, let me guess......it's run by Rural Metro.....

Edit: GRAMMAR

Edited January 16, 2011 by efdcapt115

[helicopper 1,050]

Perhaps in the fire service higher education doesn't benefit you on the street but in law enforcement and EMS it certainly does. It affords you a better insight into the job you're doing and people you're interacting with - at fires interaction with people is limited, you're battling an entirely different animal. It's another level of experience and does help "round out the person".

I agree with those who say a degree shouldn't be the sole determining factor in evaluating a candidate but if you can take someone with street experience and a degree, isn't that a benefit? Likewise, selection of a candidate shouldn't be solely a popularity contest. There should be some minimum requirements for any person who will lead a department (large or small, paid or volunteer).

I've watched people struggle through a budget hearing because they were out of their element and who suffers when the CEO falls down on the job? EVERYONE! Instead of making a compelling argument, interacting with people effectively, and using facts to promote their position this person got defensive, emotional and fell back on the "we're the _______ service, you should do this for us argument. Hardly swayed the voters in the room or the elected officials to whom they were lobbying.

You can't become an entry level police officer without two years of college today, why isn't there the same requirement for the CEO of the department (police, fire, or EMS)?

[hudson144 150]

PS: If somebody is getting bounced from an assignment and it feels like "retaliation", make sure it's well documented, then grieve it.

Keeping records by documenting is the step in the right direction,if its not documented then it didn't happen! Filing Harassment charges within the guidelines of the dept you work for is also important but depending what goes on in CITY HALL can be a waste of time. From my experience I would file charges with the EEOC and within 2-3 weeks they will be at CITY HALL and they will conduct the investigation needed.If they feel that you were discriminated against then a "Right To Sue" letter will be issued. After you recieve the letter then you can present it to a Lawyer and decide which route to go.In a recent article "RETALIATION LAWSUITS" are the most common workplace charges these days. Its a shame that here in the Fire Service some so called leaders feel that they CAN DO what they want and are untouchable. They are not above the law so protect yourself and do what is needed to be done! If you Grieve it through the union be aware that the Union Bosses might not be on your page! Edited January 16, 2011 by hudson144

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think you're aware, civil service has come up with a way for people that do work like firefighting to prove they're competent to be promoted and lead. It's called the focused "competitive exam."

Perhaps in the fire service higher education doesn't benefit you on the street but in law enforcement and EMS it certainly does.....I agree with those who say a degree shouldn't be the sole determining factor in evaluating a candidate but if you can take someone with street experience and a degree, isn't that a benefit? There should be some minimum requirements for any person who will lead a department (large or small, paid or volunteer).......You can't become an entry level police officer without two years of college today, why isn't there the same requirement for the CEO of the department (police, fire, or EMS)?

George, Civil service testing is one way of testing/ranking candidates, but it is far from perfect. But whats to say that educational requirements should not be use along with that testing. Many depts require EMT or Paramedic certification or other training to be eligable for advancement. And most promotional exams require time in grade prior to testing. There are many fine fire ground officers, and firefighters, lts, capts, all learn through experience as they move up the ranks. But Chris is correct that the administrative positions also need experience and in most depts. there is no training progam for that. But a degree does provide the HR, Budget, Legal, planning and other managment background that is needed to administer a modern fire department.

In municipal government most fire depts and police depts. had salary parity 20 years ago. then for a number of reasons police depts pulled ahead. All required some college prior to taking the civil service exam. Sargents or lt's need a BA and Capts need a masters.

Is managing a fire dept that much simpler than a police dept.? I don't think so.

[firefighter36 52]

While college degrees and coursework may not provide an individual directly with job skills, they do provide workers with critical thinking and communication skills that are useful in any line of employment, especially in ours. As public and political pressure increases, we need leaders, who can represent our services accurately, and use critical thinking and communication to get the job done. Also, it is worth mentioning that a great deal of NYS and NFA training classes also count for college credit...

Edited January 17, 2011 by mbendel36

[hudson144 150]

Recently I took a step to file charges against the Fire chief in Mount Vernon for "Work Place Retaliation". The Human Resource Division in City Hall has recieved paperwork in a complaint form as required by the City Of Mount Vernon Harassement Policy. Charges have also been filed with the EEOC and from what I have heard have been recieved in Mount Vernon City Hall. Being involved with "Protected Activity" with the City any form of retaliation should not be permitted according to law. I will keep you all posted on upcoming issues. As always thank you for the support! jjc

[efdcapt115 1,511]

George, Civil service testing is one way of testing/ranking candidates, but it is far from perfect. But whats to say that educational requirements should not be use along with that testing. Many depts require EMT or Paramedic certification or other training to be eligable for advancement. And most promotional exams require time in grade prior to testing. There are many fine fire ground officers, and firefighters, lts, capts, all learn through experience as they move up the ranks. But Chris is correct that the administrative positions also need experience and in most depts. there is no training progam for that. But a degree does provide the HR, Budget, Legal, planning and other managment background that is needed to administer a modern fire department.

In municipal government most fire depts and police depts. had salary parity 20 years ago. then for a number of reasons police depts pulled ahead. All required some college prior to taking the civil service exam. Sargents or lt's need a BA and Capts need a masters.

Is managing a fire dept that much simpler than a police dept.? I don't think so.

"Sure thing...college boy..."

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Recently I took a step to file charges against the Fire chief in Mount Vernon for "Work Place Retaliation". The Human Resource Division in City Hall has recieved paperwork in a complaint form as required by the City Of Mount Vernon Harassement Policy. Charges have also been filed with the EEOC and from what I have heard have been recieved in Mount Vernon City Hall. Being involved with "Protected Activity" with the City any form of retaliation should not be permitted according to law. I will keep you all posted on upcoming issues. As always thank you for the support! jjc

As always best of luck with that J. May JUSTICE prevail.

[Bnechis 3,961]

"Sure thing...college boy..."

George, the University says the title is “Professor”....please get with the program.

[hudson144 150]

City Had until 3/14 to reply to the EEOC charges that I submitted back in January, after we recieve and review ,then we rebuttle the reply and we hope to get a "Right to Sue" letter then take the next step. retaliation is against the law and should not be tolerated.