Asbury Park 3rd Alarm Flashover

[NJMedic 96]

Photos taken by the local media outlet of flashover conditions in a second story apartment over a commerical outlet. Firefighter Jason Fazio of the Asbury Park Fire Departmnt , seriously burned in a midmorning fire on Main Street, was in critical condition at the St. Barnabas Burn Center in Livingston Monday afternoon. Firefighter Fazio was caught in the flashover and dove out the second floor.

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=B3&Dato=20110110&Kategori=MULTIMEDIA02&Lopenr=101100801&Ref=PH

[Alpinerunner 61]

Very scary! The pics that the magazine got are very impressive and telling of the progression of the fire. Speedy recovery to the injured FF.

[TSull 33]

I do not know what Asbury Parks SOGs are so my question is a general one: was there a charged hoseline in place, opposite of the window that the brother on the portable is venting and did he communicate with the FFs on the inside that he was taken the glass? I hope the FF who sustained burns and injuries makes a full recovery.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I do not know what Asbury Parks SOGs are so my question is a general one: was there a charged hoseline in place, opposite of the window that the brother on the portable is venting and did he communicate with the FFs on the inside that he was taken the glass? I hope the FF who sustained burns and injuries makes a full recovery.

Agreed, but rather then us question whether there was one in place since we cannot see what was occurring inside, we should let the investigation determine that.

Regardless of what happened with these brothers, we should remind everyone that for venting, you must communicate with the engine company and IC to request that ventilation begin and notify its about to occur. This is operational procedures taught at the lowest level of any firefighting class. Windows generally shouldn't be taken without a charged hose line in place and ready for water to flow. As seen here, the moment the windows were vented, the smoke when from gray, low density/wispy under no pressure to thick, black smoke under a lot of pressure, then flashed almost instantaneously.

Along those lines as well, we must also make sure that ventilation is occurring in the right place. Vertical ventilation should occur directly above the seat of the fire as possible, and horizontal should generally only be used in rooms currently involved in fire. Doing anything besides that runs the risk of pulling the heat and flames to the new vent hole and spreading the fire.

Edited January 12, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[IzzyEng4 427]

What is the composition of the Asbury Park FD? Staffing, number of apparatus, ect. Also besides Neptune FD, who else do they work mutual aid with? Just curious, I don't know the city.

Speedy recovery to the brother that was injured.

[TSull 33]

Agreed, but rather then us question whether there was one in place since we cannot see what was occurring inside, we should let the investigation determine that.

Regardless of what happened with these brothers, we should remind everyone that for venting, you must communicate with the engine company and IC to request that ventilation begin. This is operational procedures taught at the lowest level of any firefighting class. At no point should a roof be cut or windows taken without a charged hose line in place and ready for water to flow. As seen here, the moment the windows were vented, the smoke when from gray, low density/wispy under no pressure to thick, black smoke under a lot of pressure, then flashed almost instantaneously.

Along those lines as well, we must also make sure that ventilation is occurring in the right place. Vertical ventilation should occur directly above the seat of the fire as possible, and horizontal should only be used in rooms involved in fire. Doing anything besides that runs the risk of pulling the heat and flames to the new vent hole and spreading the fire.

The FF on the portable appears to have vented the correct window, my question was about communication with those on the inside. As far as vertical ventilation, get it done and let me know what you did. "Nothing shall deter the roofman from completing his assigned task." For horizontal ventilation, ask/communicate before venting so that if the line is not in place/ready to go or a primary search is being done in that room/area, I can tell you to hold off on venting

[FFLieu 70]

What is the composition of the Asbury Park FD? Staffing, number of apparatus, ect. Also besides Neptune FD, who else do they work mutual aid with? Just curious, I don't know the city.

Speedy recovery to the brother that was injured.

Asbury Park is a career department that usually runs M/A with Neptune Twp. and City, Avon, Ocean Twp., and Bradley Beach, due to their close proximity. It's one of the few career departments in Monmouth County (I believe the only other ones are at Ft. Monmouth and Naval Weapons Station Earle). I'm not too sure about staffing since I lived on the other side of the County and rarely had any occasion to be in Asbury, but I don't think they have any more than 30 or so FFs.

[NJMedic 96]

Asbury Park puts 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 2 BLS ambulances, and a Battalion Chief on the road from one very old firehouse in the middle of the City. They have in their fleet 4 engines, 1 TDA Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue and the two ambulances. They have rough 55 firefighters. The City spent an influx of money on the department a couple of years ago in which they acquired the rescue from South Wall, NJ; a TDA ladder from Balto County and three brand new Smeal/KME engines. The one engine in the photos is one of their newer ones. Medics are provide by a regional service called MONOC. From the photos I see a IAFF decal on the Mack Arielscope so I'm guessing they picked that up along the way as a spare ladder. I'm preety sure the Mack was formerly operated by the Freewood Acres Fire Company in Howell Twp, another Monmouth County company, a 1971 model that was originally operated by Jericho on Long Island and Brick, NJ before Freewood Acres ran it.

The City is right on the oceanfront and has seen better days. Shootings and stabbings are not uncommon and their ambulances run all day in the summer.

Edited January 12, 2011 by NJMedic

[JFLYNN 681]

Agreed, but rather then us question whether there was one in place since we cannot see what was occurring inside, we should let the investigation determine that.

Regardless of what happened with these brothers, we should remind everyone that for venting, you must communicate with the engine company and IC to request that ventilation begin. This is operational procedures taught at the lowest level of any firefighting class. At no point should a roof be cut or windows taken without a charged hose line in place and ready for water to flow. As seen here, the moment the windows were vented, the smoke when from gray, low density/wispy under no pressure to thick, black smoke under a lot of pressure, then flashed almost instantaneously.

Along those lines as well, we must also make sure that ventilation is occurring in the right place. Vertical ventilation should occur directly above the seat of the fire as possible, and horizontal should only be used in rooms involved in fire. Doing anything besides that runs the risk of pulling the heat and flames to the new vent hole and spreading the fire.

I am not commenting on or critiquing the Asbury park fire since we do not know with certainty what actually happened yet. However...you are completely wrong regarding vertical ventilation...this should be accomplished as rapidly as possible regardless of hoseline positioning with one or two specific, rare exceptions which I will not go into here...PLEASE, do not make posts about such a critical life or death subject in such a self confident, matter of fact manner unless you know what you are talking about.....we have such limited fire duty these days and there are those who will apply what they learn on this forum on the fireground...

As far as your comments regarding horizontal ventilation, your guidelines are overly simplistic, and again, may cause more harm than good to those reading this if they decide to take it as gospel....when I have time I will post some correct information on horizontal ventilation unless (hopefully) someone beats me to it....

Please don't take this personal...I'm sure you mean well, but when such clearly incorrect information is posted about what is such a basic and important procedure on the fireground, it is essential that it be rebutted as quickly as possible and the correct information put forward...

[Anesti 329]

Asbury Park puts 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 2 BLS ambulances, and a Battalion Chief on the road from one very old firehouse in the middle of the City. They have in their fleet 4 engines, 1 TDA Ladder, 1 Heavy Rescue and the two ambulances. They have rough 55 firefighters. The City spent an influx of money on the department a couple of years ago in which they acquired the rescue from South Wall, NJ; a TDA ladder from Balto County and three brand new Smeal/KME engines. The one engine in the photos is one of their newer ones. Medics are provide by a regional service called MONOC. From the photos I see a IAFF decal on the Mack Arielscope so I'm guessing they picked that up along the way as a spare ladder. I'm preety sure the Mack was formerly operated by the Freewood Acres Fire Company in Howell Twp, another Monmouth County company, a 1971 model that was originally operated by Jericho on Long Island and Brick, NJ before Freewood Acres ran it.

The City is right on the oceanfront and has seen better days. Shootings and stabbings are not uncommon and their ambulances run all day in the summer.

1 engine,1 truck, and 1 battalion, so are the other 3 engines and ladder company just reserve/spare??

[JohnnyOV 2]

The FF on the portable appears to have vented the correct window, my question was about communication with those on the inside. As far as vertical ventilation, get it done and let me know what you did. "Nothing shall deter the roofman from completing his assigned task." For horizontal ventilation, ask/communicate before venting so that if the line is not in place/ready to go or a primary search is being done in that room/area, I can tell you to hold off on venting

I completely agree... it was just a reminder for those who like to go and break every window in the building "because they can"

[JohnnyOV 2]

I am not commenting on or critiquing the Asbury park fire since we do not know with certainty what actually happened yet. However...you are completely wrong regarding vertical ventilation...this should be accomplished as rapidly as possible regardless of hoseline positioning with one or two specific, rare exceptions which I will not go into here...PLEASE, do not make posts about such a critical life or death subject in such a self confident, matter of fact manner unless you know what you are talking about.....we have such limited fire duty these days and there are those who will apply what they learn on this forum on the fireground...

Please don't take this personal...I'm sure you mean well, but when such clearly incorrect information is posted about what is such a basic and important procedure on the fireground, it is essential that it be rebutted as quickly as possible and the correct information put forward...

I agree with you that vertical ventilation should never be held up for any reason, that too is an essential lesson taught in truck company classes. It was a grammatical / writing mistake and I didn't proof read my post before I replied and did not realize my mistake until this morning. Again, my apologies, and I'll hold off on posting next time until I have more time to re-read my post.

I've edited my post in question as of this point

Edited January 12, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[NJMedic 96]

1 engine,1 truck, and 1 battalion, so are the other 3 engines and ladder company just reserve/spare??

I guess so. I've never seen APFD operate at a fire. Perhaps they have recall for off suty firefighters when they get a decent job.

[JFLYNN 681]

I agree with you that vertical ventilation should never be held up for any reason, that too is an essential lesson taught in truck company classes. It was a grammatical / writing mistake and I didn't proof read my post before I replied and did not realize my mistake until this morning. Again, my apologies, and I'll hold off on posting next time until I have more time to re-read my post.

I've edited my post in question as of this point

Thanks!

[firecapt32 282]

Firefighter Fazio is in St Barnabas Burn Center. I have had the pleasurer to tour the facility and can assure all of yopu that it is one of the finest burn centers in the northeast. He is in good hands and hopfully he can have a speedy recovery.

Walter

BurnCare..Eveywhere Foundation inc.

[Guest jcnyc]

That brother should have been taking those window guards not the window. These guys that operate with no staffing should have someone on the inside with a rock to vent the window from the inside, that guy would have done a big help getting the line in place! How about moving that engine out of the way of the front of the building too. short building but still!

[16fire5 693]

It's obvious from the posts that there are different feelings out there on ventilation. There are very few if any always and nevers in the fire service. For a laundry list of reasons vertical ventilation early is real good. Now the always above the fire is nice but there are times when it's not doable like when it's sagging under your boots.

Now for the coordination of horizontal ventilation we allow the 1st truck officer to coordinate/control. I see a few benifits to this and for the most part has and does work very well for us. First it eliminates the IC as a middle man in the conversation between inside and outside. Most importantly the 1st ladder company officer is in the apartment and knows conditions best i.e. heat, fire location, life hazard, ect. One thing is for sure fires reach flashover much faster than they did before so the stakes are higher. Generally I hold off taking the rest of the windows in the apartment until the water is there. But that is a general statement I think ventilation is one of the hardest things to fully grasp and experience is key. It's a topic in the fire service that would be real hard to teach from a book. There are times when I would vent additional windows besides the fire room but it would be for a victim I was looking for and it would be a calculated risk. Lets face it if we are told a victim is a certin room and it is next to the fire, VESing it in an attempt to save a life is in my book a good move but risky. As the chief brought up fire duty is way down so the only way to learn is pay attention at every fire you go to. Regardless of you position find out from the OV what they did and how it worked.

Also in refernece to the fire that started this thread it's quite apparant that there was an understaffed first alarm which probably left jobs undone in a timely manner.

[TSull 33]

That brother should have been taking those window guards not the window. These guys that operate with no staffing should have someone on the inside with a rock to vent the window from the inside, that guy would have done a big help getting the line in place! How about moving that engine out of the way of the front of the building too. short building but still!

A rock? A BFR or a SFR? ( A "Big F'ing Rock" or a "Small F'ing Rock") Which pocket is that carried in? In a smoke filled room, what are your chances of actually hitting the glass? With thermalpane windows (that haligans bounce off of sometimes) how big of a rock will be needed to actually break the glass? Who carries the BFR/SFR? The nozzleman? The Officer? Are the rocks department issue or do the members have to acquire their own BFR/SFR? (At least they could write that off on taxes!) Let's assume that you are inside the fire apartment, deploy your BFR, successfully vent the window, but your BFR sails through the air striking an old lady or cop in the street. Are you and the city liable for the injuries sustained by the actions of the rapid deployment of your BFR? I wonder why FF's of yesteryear actually took time to develope the responsibilities of the outside vent position when all they had to do was throw rocks to get the job done?

[16fire5 693]

A rock? A BFR or a SFR? ( A "Big F'ing Rock" or a "Small F'ing Rock") Which pocket is that carried in? In a smoke filled room, what are your chances of actually hitting the glass? With thermalpane windows (that haligans bounce off of sometimes) how big of a rock will be needed to actually break the glass? Who carries the BFR/SFR? The nozzleman? The Officer? Are the rocks department issue or do the members have to acquire their own BFR/SFR? (At least they could write that off on taxes!) Let's assume that you are inside the fire apartment, deploy your BFR, successfully vent the window, but your BFR sails through the air striking an old lady or cop in the street. Are you and the city liable for the injuries sustained by the actions of the rapid deployment of your BFR? I wonder why FF's of yesteryear actually took time to develope the responsibilities of the outside vent position when all they had to do was throw rocks to get the job done?

Atleast we only throw the can out the window once in our career.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A rock? A BFR or a SFR? ( A "Big F'ing Rock" or a "Small F'ing Rock") Which pocket is that carried in? In a smoke filled room, what are your chances of actually hitting the glass? With thermalpane windows (that haligans bounce off of sometimes) how big of a rock will be needed to actually break the glass? Who carries the BFR/SFR? The nozzleman? The Officer? Are the rocks department issue or do the members have to acquire their own BFR/SFR? (At least they could write that off on taxes!) Let's assume that you are inside the fire apartment, deploy your BFR, successfully vent the window, but your BFR sails through the air striking an old lady or cop in the street. Are you and the city liable for the injuries sustained by the actions of the rapid deployment of your BFR? I wonder why FF's of yesteryear actually took time to develope the responsibilities of the outside vent position when all they had to do was throw rocks to get the job done?

I think you are correct, the officer would usually carry the BFR or SFR. Although depending on the size of it is usually just called the TIC after it breaks/malfunctions/runs out of batteries on the inside. joke.

Edited January 15, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[Guest jcnyc]

Atleast we only throw the can out the window once in our career.

I smell a hilton story here! Maybe Pee Wee knows, or maybe it is his story!