The storm and the chaos

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Who's been following along with the chatter coming from NYC in the aftermath of the storm? Major delays in EMS, word is 1,300 EMS runs on backlog. Reports of an engine company having to sit on an EMS run for 10 hours due to no buses being available. All kinds of rumors; CFR companies work a cpr call for 20 minutes, if they don't get a medic or a bus, they can discontinue.....transporting patients in patrol cars, battalion cars, even private vehicles. Some outer boroughs' roadways haven't seen plows since the storm started. Abandoned public buses and private vehicles blocking streets. The latest rumor has mutual aid ambulances coming over from New Jersey, so EMS can try and get caught up on the runs. Anybody seen anything online to confirm this rumor about the NJ ambulances? Plus they've got a 5th going in Queens; rigs can't get in to the fire scene due to blocked and unplowed streets, and a 3rd in the Bronx, similar conditions. It's a nightmare!

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/27/fdny-reports-911-backlog-of-1300-calls/

[Goose 188]

I heard something along those lines...they were getting BLS buses from jersey which were to stage at the holland tunnel. Had a few friends working on the bus last night...and i heard it was horrendous

[NJMedic 96]

Four BLS Strike Teams were staging at the Holland Tunnel entrance for further deployment to Brooklyn ans Queens. One NJ EMT will split off from the NJ ambulance and ride with an FDNY EMT in a FDNY bus while the NJ Bus will be staffed with a NJ EMT and a FDNY EMT. First operational period ends at 0900 tomorrow when another 12 hours period will start. Latest intell sts FDNY is backlogged 20000 EMS jobs. Pervious records was 600 js delayed during the 2003 blackout also that last time NJ responded across the river.

[newsbuff 286]

Latest intell sts FDNY is backlogged 20000 EMS jobs. Pervious records was 600 js delayed during the 2003 blackout also that last time NJ responded across the river.

20,000 or 2000.....

[NJMedic 96]

Sorry, 2000 (hyperactive fingers)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Marcia Kramer gets under Bloomturd's skin:

2 video reports in the link, the 1st is MK exposing the mayor's false claims that "all is well", the second gives a good glimpse at the atrocious conditions on the roadways:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/category/video-on-demand-news/?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=5418096&flvUri&partnerclipid

Thanks NJ Medic for the info about the mutal-aid.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Four BLS Strike Teams were staging at the Holland Tunnel entrance for further deployment to Brooklyn ans Queens. One NJ EMT will split off from the NJ ambulance and ride with an FDNY EMT in a FDNY bus while the NJ Bus will be staffed with a NJ EMT and a FDNY EMT. First operational period ends at 0900 tomorrow when another 12 hours period will start. Latest intell sts FDNY is backlogged 20000 EMS jobs. Pervious records was 600 js delayed during the 2003 blackout also that last time NJ responded across the river.

How many units in a strike team?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

NY946

EMS agencies in upstate NY are being contacted to send any resources they can for 12, 24 or 36 hour shifts in the city starting tomorrow at 0600. Albany, Greene and Rensselaer counties are sending a number of rigs already.

(from another emergency services website)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Updated info:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/27/nyc-faced-with-tough-questions-about-blizzard-response/

Includes these little tid-bits:

~The mutual-aid ambulance count from NJ is 20 to Brooklyn, 20 to Queens, plus apparently more units responding from upstate NY.

~Monday afternoon, there was a three-hour wait to get an ambulance to critical calls!

~lower priority EMS calls were said to have been held up for nearly 12 hours

~at one point 120 ambulances were stuck in the snow

~snow problems and the need to respond to CFR runs gave the FDNY a 60 percent availability to respond to fires

I don't know how the membership here feels about this (hopefully some of you will post your thoughts), but frankly I'm disgusted and honestly fearful right now. I have elderly relatives in the Bronx, and it means a restless night for me having to worry if God forbid one of them needs immediate critical care, they'll more than likely not survive the night.

The mayor, having looked at vital emergency services (and that includes Sanitation) through his bean counting machine, and deciding that city residents could live with things like closed fire companies, the coming rolling brown-outs of supposedly 20 companies at night (all while his pet project "citytime" has ballooned from an estimated cost of 60 million dollars to 800 million dollars) has definitely lost touch with the common working class people of the outer boroughs. Through this debacle, we'll see what the final tally ends up being in lost lives.

The city chose not to declare a snow emergency, which would have banned cars from the streets. Take a look at the results of that decision. why wouldn't they call for a snow emergency? It would cost money.

That's the problem when you have a billionaire businessman try and run public/emergency services like a "business." F****D up priorities, and when a big problem like this storm shows up, it costs the little people, not in his billionaire pocketbook, but in human lives lost. Let's all pray it isn't that many.

[OoO 24]

Any westchester units helping out?

[ny10570 745]

At its peak there were over 1200 jobs backlogged in the system. As of 10pm still "several hundred".

Nearly all backlogged calls in Brooklyn and Queens. As of 8pm Manhattan had cleared and at some point this evening Bronx cleared their board.

I have heard 20 ambulances from Jersey total and 20 each to Brooklyn and Queens. Not sure yet which is accurate.

As of Midnight 97 ambulances were stuck, some for hours. Sanitation still has primary roads that are not fully cleared due to stuck cars, trucks, and buses(mta not EMS).

Total for 12/27 was 6,247 jobs in the system. Figure 1,000 were for stuck ambulances and that puts us a full 2,000 above a busy day this time of year. In the summer when additional units are regularly addded to the system we do as many as 4,000. The system simply imploded under the strain. A 60% increase in call volume would hurt on a normal day. This has just been too much compounded with delayed action from the department and flat out inaction by the city.

I put as much stock in the CFR 10hr asthma story as I believe Sanitation isn't clearing streets as part of a job action. First, CFRs are not assigned to low priority jobs, only life threatening medical jobs. While these were also holding for up to an hour in several cases there's no way it'd go 10hrs unnoticed especially with a CFR on scene calling for ETAs from EMS. I think the longest a call sat waiting was around 12 hours and it was a low priority sick in Brooklyn. Second firefighters are not dumb. If they had someone who is really sick they're not going to just stare at them and keep changing O2 tanks for hours on end.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ny10570

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The situation in NYC is pretty disgusting. It once again shows a city that is not prepared for some things. There are major cities around this country that experience this amount of snow frequently. Moral of the story is the tri-state area needs to learn how to properly remove snow and make streets as safe as hey can be during sh** weather

[grumpyff 1,159]

Its more people need to learn to stay home and out of the way. I lost track of the number of cars just abandoned in the middle of the road because the driver got stuck, including one black car left sideways in the middle of Morris Park Ave. Subways were full of morons who acted like this storm was a surprise that came out of nowhere and then expected PD and EMS to take them home. Granted some of the calls were real, like the subway worker who fell down a flight of stairs while shoveling snow and twisted her knee so that her lower leg was behind her. After waiting with her two hours her leg was numb and she couldn't walk. Others like a child with a fever don't need 911, the parents just didn't want to be out in the snow.just plain stupid when they complained about the wait and just walked off.

Edited December 28, 2010 by grumpyff

[NJMedic 96]

How many units in a strike team?

5 Five V

[kurt 5]

This seems to happen every snow storm they get there is always something that goes wrong in the city I heard on the news that they were pulling pd off patrol to drive snow plows its just crazy they had plenty of notice about this storm don't know if any body seen the press conference with the mayor but to me he mad it sound like it was no big deal well wake up and smell the coffee this was a very bad thing trains buses werer not in operations and the mayor stood there and told people to get out and about no stay the hell home so people can do there job and it doesn't help when plow comes threw and people throw snow back in the road

[NJMedic 96]

NJ's goal was to send 20 (only 20, not forty) to K and Q for a 12 hour period beginning at 2100hrs last night and another 20 for 0900 this morning. I don't think the 20 mark was meet as some areas have their own problems.

[ny10570 745]

Correct, it was 20 from NJ.

People forget, parts of Brooklyn and Queens got nearly 3 feet of snow. This is one of the biggest storms to wallop NYC. In 96 when they got 20 inches over 12 hours the national guard was brought in to help get to calls and some calls still weren't answered 24hrs later. This time not even a snow emergency from the city that would have banned unnecessary cars from the streets. Instead as I write this there are still cars abandoned in the street.

NYCs snow removal plan is very structured and does not take into account differences in snow accumulation. They cannot afford to be able to clear the streets 24hrs after a 3 foot dump like Syracuse and Buffalo can. The city is just too tightly packed and congested. Declaring an emergency and enforcing vehicle bans once the severity of the storm was obvious would have helped. EMS initiating a recall starting with the overnight tour sunday into Monday would have allowed them to get ahead of the staffing shortage the crippled us that morning. We have no ability to free vehicles stuck in snow besides waiting for sanitation and when they're struggling to keep the primary roadways open we're not a priority no matter what the OEM director says.

There's definitely room for improvement, but that much snow plus 911 abuse will always crush the system.

[ny10570 745]

I take back waht I said about the 10 hour cfr run. It was Eng 289 in Queens. Sat on scene 10 hours with a few O2 drops by the truck before the battalion finally came and took the patient.

[grumpyff 1,159]

All around general stupidity. From the genius Deputy Inspector in the NYPD Transit HQ that came up with the brilliant idea to have transit districts not field RMP's during the storm, and instead take the subway. That great idea worked on paper until the subways stopped running before the worst of the storm hit. I don't think I saw one RMP in the Bronx that had chains put on. The shops were closed, tire shops on the street were not sure about putting the cable chains on the new hybrids, or in my commands case, a new van, but the chains in our locker didn't fit this size tire. MTA Bus was equally unprepared, with numerous buses with no chains. The accordion style buses fared the worst, often taking on a jack knifed appearance and getting stuck in snow banks. I did see several NYC Sanitation trucks driving around Boston Road in the Gun Hill Area, one problem though, the plow doesn't work when kept in the raised position. Mid town Manhattan did look nice and clean this morning so that Bloomburg could go see his Broadway shows, while a good portion of the Bronx has yet to a single plow on the side roads.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Compressed audio from the 5th.

youtube credit:firefighterdispatch

[helicopper 1,050]

I take back waht I said about the 10 hour cfr run. It was Eng 289 in Queens. Sat on scene 10 hours with a few O2 drops by the truck before the battalion finally came and took the patient.

It took them 10 hours to come up with the idea of transporting by alternate means?

[helicopper 1,050]

There's no single culprit in this nightmare but one great lesson learned is you can't ignore the forecasts and "hope" for the best. The northeast does this time and time again in winter and summer (tropical storms) and while usually they get away with it, this time the City took it on the chin.

Let's sum up the causal factors:

1. Political apathy
2. Downsizing of emergency services
3. Failure to mobilize additional resources based on forecast
4. Heavier than forecast snow fall and blizzard conditions
5. 911 Abuse
6. Failure to pre-plan and have additional resources ready with chains, etc.
7. Not considering contingencies (like MTA shut-down)
8. No declaration of a snow emergency
9. Public stupidity (being on the road for no good reason)
10. Inadequate Sanitation resources for storm of this size
11. City infrastructure doesn't make snow removal easy
12. Continuing to operate "as normal" despite the storm (continuing to take low priority jobs and assign CFR companies reducing the fire suppression strength)
13. Political apathy

I think 1 and 13 sum up the majority of these pretty well.

[wraftery 1,275]

All around general stupidity. From the genius Deputy Inspector in the NYPD Transit HQ that came up with the brilliant idea to have transit districts not field RMP's during the storm, and instead take the subway. That great idea worked on paper until the subways stopped running before the worst of the storm hit. I don't think I saw one RMP in the Bronx that had chains put on. The shops were closed, tire shops on the street were not sure about putting the cable chains on the new hybrids, or in my commands case, a new van, but the chains in our locker didn't fit this size tire. MTA Bus was equally unprepared, with numerous buses with no chains. The accordion style buses fared the worst, often taking on a jack knifed appearance and getting stuck in snow banks. I did see several NYC Sanitation trucks driving around Boston Road in the Gun Hill Area, one problem though, the plow doesn't work when kept in the raised position. Mid town Manhattan did look nice and clean this morning so that Bloomburg could go see his Broadway shows, while a good portion of the Bronx has yet to a single plow on the side roads.

Old USN proverb: The Six P's

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

Application: Buy car, Try Chains

[FDNY 10-75 640]

The upstate Ambulances being sent (info) is correct, Catskill, Coxsackie and Greenport sent buses early this AM, they toned out all the Rensselaer County Coordinators to send rigs last night too, not sure if anyone did.

[x635 4,066]

NYCs snow removal plan is very structured and does not take into account differences in snow accumulation. They cannot afford to be able to clear the streets 24hrs after a 3 foot dump like Syracuse and Buffalo can. The city is just too tightly packed and congested. .

It's suprising that NYC Sanitation is not more on top of this. I know conditions are difficult, but if you look at the resources they have available, I think it comes down to planning, control, and priorities. I remember one year when Times Square got heavy snow on New Years Eve, yet it was removed within several hours.

Most of their fleet of garbage trucks are equipped with plows. They have numerous additional vehicles (all of them with the orange paint scheme), such as plow/sanders, front end loaders, jet snow melters, etc dedicated especially for snow removal. They also have numerous heavy wreckers which can be used to dislodge vehicles. They could also have a plan with the hundreds of contractors with front end loaders and dump trucks to clear major routes. As far as the plows that are traveling without plowing, there is equipment blowing hydraulic lines, etc...and NYC, of course, has cut back as part of it's budget the amount of mechanics and other resources designed to handle this.

Also, NYC*DOT has a large amount of dump trucks, some with plows, and payloaders.

http://www.x635photos.com/thumbnails-2.html

I'm also suprised that FDNY doesn't keep a stable of 4x4 ambulances.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

It's suprising that NYC Sanitation is not more on top of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt_r-jO3lKE&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s

youtube credit and color commentary: JCK42

You really need to have the volume on for this video (I don't think the title of the video is very nice) but you have to hear the noise from the payloader making contact with the SUV....

[x635 4,066]

That video was featured nationally on NBC's "The Today Show" this morning. I'm sure there will be a flood of similar videos.

[NJMedic 96]

Keep in mind the the San Men lost 400 positions over the last year. Some media (and other insiders in NYC I know) are suggesting the guys aren't going the next mile as they once would. On the other hand I have seen videos of City plows spinning their wheels. Basically anything to make Bloomy look bad.

[ny10570 745]

NYC has something like 20,000 lane miles and less than 3,000 sanitation plows, sanders and loaders and another 100 some odd DOT trucks. They are woefully equipped for a job of this magnitude, but how do you economically maintain a force capable of handling something big? Recent cuts I'm sure hurt but wouldn't have turned this into a win.

When even the plows are getting stuck, what do you do? Saw it myself, several garbage trucks buried.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ny10570

[x635 4,066]

NYC is a unique animal. But there are other cities that get socked. Maybe they should look at cities like Toronto and Chicago (I don't know how well either does, though).

Also, in all the footage I've seen down here, it seems many city vehicles that should have chains don't. Why is this? Seems like they should add to the spec of all ambulances, police cars, plows, etc 2 sets of snow chains.

NYC being parylyzed like this is not good, though. They have plans for everything else, now they need to make sure something like this doesn't happen again or at least they are trained, equipped, and prepared for it.

And how are essential hospital and other personel getting to work?