Aircraft Emergencies

[wraftery 1,275]

I read the Incident Alert for the recent loss of an engine and checked the flight path. IA says the loss of engine occurred over Phila, yet the pilot opted to continue to his destination at Westchester. I know the plane can operate on one engine but isn't this pilot being a bit reckless by not declaring an emergency and requesting the nearest airport?

The flight tracker says his track was not over Philly but closer to Atlantic City. Is loss of engine that little zig-zag in his track?

I believe he could have (should have) requested a landing at Wilmington, Atlantic city, Philly, McGuire, Newark, Teterboro, JFK, or LGA instead. Is it an emergency if you can pass up that many fields? Or was it an imprudent choice to go on to HPN. A pilot is responsible for the souls aboard but also to the people on the ground who are at risk if engine 2 fails.

OK Pilots out there, what do you think?

[firedude 985]

I read the Incident Alert for the recent loss of an engine and checked the flight path. IA says the loss of engine occurred over Phila, yet the pilot opted to continue to his destination at Westchester. I know the plane can operate on one engine but isn't this pilot being a bit reckless by not declaring an emergency and requesting the nearest airport?

The flight tracker says his track was not over Philly but closer to Atlantic City. Is loss of engine that little zig-zag in his track?

I believe he could have (should have) requested a landing at Wilmington, Atlantic city, Philly, McGuire, Newark, Teterboro, JFK, or LGA instead. Is it an emergency if you can pass up that many fields? Or was it an imprudent choice to go on to HPN. A pilot is responsible for the souls aboard but also to the people on the ground who are at risk if engine 2 fails.

OK Pilots out there, what do you think?

I do not want bias since I wrote the IA. I will try to find a ATC Clip of the audio. On the bottom of the flight tracker page, the graph with the two lines, One is speed, One is Altitude. The abrupt loss of speed, when they went from 425 knots to 220 knots, that is when they lost the engine. They were at 35,000ft when this happened. The zig zag on the map is not representative of the loss of the engine, rather just the planned flight path. If you zoom in, the dotted blue line is the intened flight path, as assigned by ATC. All planes with 2 engines can do fine, with just 1 engine. For this flight, he was probably within guiding distance to HPN. If he choose a closer airport, he would of had to done a rapid descent. Also, keep in mind, this is when atlantic city, newark, LGA and JFK and a lot of others were closed for snow removal.

[aviator70 16]

I do not want bias since I wrote the IA. I will try to find a ATC Clip of the audio. On the bottom of the flight tracker page, the graph with the two lines, One is speed, One is Altitude. The abrupt loss of speed, when they went from 425 knots to 220 knots, that is when they lost the engine. They were at 35,000ft when this happened. The zig zag on the map is not representative of the loss of the engine, rather just the planned flight path. If you zoom in, the dotted blue line is the intened flight path, as assigned by ATC. All planes with 2 engines can do fine, with just 1 engine. For this flight, he was probably within guiding distance to HPN. If he choose a closer airport, he would of had to done a rapid descent. Also, keep in mind, this is when atlantic city, newark, LGA and JFK and a lot of others were closed for snow removal.

As a pilot, I also questioned this. Is it normal, probably not, but there could have been several issues including airport closures, etc....White Plains was open much sooner than most. That aircraft is more then capable, and required to, fly on 1 engine. Is it prudent when you lose 1 to continue on that far, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on a variety of factors.

[JohnnyOV 2]

As a pilot, I also questioned this. Is it normal, probably not, but there could have been several issues including airport closures, etc....White Plains was open much sooner than most. That aircraft is more then capable, and required to, fly on 1 engine. Is it prudent when you lose 1 to continue on that far, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on a variety of factors.

As a pilot myself, from 35,000 feet, a slow, controlled, decent would be much more productive then a quick decent to the nearest airport on one engine. Gives you much more time to plan your options, and more time to figure out what to do in case of another engine failure. Engine failures are a very uncommon occurrence, and the possibility of having 2 engines fail is almost astronomical if you're not running out of fuel.

Out of the 4 standard arrivals for Westchester, the BOUNO Four STAR (standard terminal arrival) would have the aircraft crossing over the first way point over new jersey at 18,000 feet (above sea level) and seems like the most sensible since the rest place the aircraft coming in from the north. I know most of this will be jargon to most of you, but here is the BOUNO Four arrival:

http://204.108.4.16/.../00651BOUNO.PDF

(if that doesn't work - http://www.airnav.com/airport/KHPN - scroll down to STAR Arrivals and its the first one)

He probably chose the ILS runway 34 arrival which would take him off of the BOUNO Four once he arrived at the Deer park VOR which would give him basically a direct shot north to the airport

http://204.108.4.16/...3/00651IL34.PDF

quick sum:

Plane can travel on one engine and preform at a slower speed / reduce handling, but will not fall out of the sky.

189 nm from the first waypoint to the last point, not including the holding pattern.

if the pilot declared an emergency, we would be given priority, and not have to hold, rather be vectored directly to a runway of his choosing if he so chose to do so.

Long 6500 foot runway at Westchester is ideal for an aircraft this size, and you wont be tying up larger commercial aircraft who now have you yield for you in your emergency

More then enough ARFF units for a plane this size

Plane had more of a chance of crashing on decent due to icing, then due to 2nd engine out

Good move by the Pilot in my decision to continue his trip

Edited December 28, 2010 by JohnnyOV

[wraftery 1,275]

As a pilot, I also questioned this. Is it normal, probably not, but there could have been several issues including airport closures, etc....White Plains was open much sooner than most. That aircraft is more then capable, and required to, fly on 1 engine. Is it prudent when you lose 1 to continue on that far, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on a variety of factors.

In marine rules of the road, there is what is called the General Prudential Rule. It means you should do what the prudent person would do. Granted I don't know all the variables in this case and I am not a pilot.

I know the plane can fly on one engine, But should it? It's rare, but an aircraft can be turned into a rock by a well-placed Canada Goose.

We are all in the emergency services business and deal with the rare all the time. How many times have we said "What are the chances of that happening again?"

How not-rare does it have to be before we make a rule?

[helicopper 1,050]

I know the plane can fly on one engine, But should it? It's rare, but an aircraft can be turned into a rock by a well-placed Canada Goose.

We are all in the emergency services business and deal with the rare all the time. How many times have we said "What are the chances of that happening again?"

How not-rare does it have to be before we make a rule?

There are limitations and emergency procedures for each and every aircraft that guide you in situations like this. The loss of one engine, unaccompanied by any other problem (fire, structural damage, etc.) may not even be an "emergency".

Consider that many planes making trans-oceanic flights have only two engines now and they're thousands of miles from an airport, not just 189 miles. If the loss of one engine was a critical consideration they probably wouldn't allow it and would require four engines or something.

We sensationalize these types of events but to the flight crew, this "alert" was little more than a nuisance.

[helicopper 1,050]

I read the Incident Alert for the recent loss of an engine and checked the flight path. IA says the loss of engine occurred over Phila, yet the pilot opted to continue to his destination at Westchester. I know the plane can operate on one engine but isn't this pilot being a bit reckless by not declaring an emergency and requesting the nearest airport?

OK Pilots out there, what do you think?

The pilot is absolutely not being reckless. He's following the flight manual for the aircraft and so long as he is within it's limitations he is absolutely fine. He probably reported his engine out and was given expedited handling to HPN but it may not have constituted an "emergency".

Our version of an emergency and the aviation industry's version of an emergency may not always be the same.

[JohnnyOV 2]

The pilot is absolutely not being reckless. He's following the flight manual for the aircraft and so long as he is within it's limitations he is absolutely fine. He probably reported his engine out and was given expedited handling to HPN but it may not have constituted an "emergency".

Our version of an emergency and the aviation industry's version of an emergency may not always be the same.

No need to tell you, but you are absolutely correct. If having 1 engine out of 2 engines is such an emergency/hazard, then why allow single engine aircraft to fly at all?

37% of aircraft flying are commercial, 37% are general aviation flights, with a vast majority being single engine planes, putting around strictly for the joy of flying. In 2008 there were on average 156,000 recorded flights per day, and on average for every 1 recorded flight with a flight plan, there are approximately 2 flights without a flight plan or a pilot ever contacting an air traffic control center or popping up on radar, so those go unrecorded and are almost impossible to track.

[wraftery 1,275]

Thanks, guys, you answered my questions.

I try to learn something every day. It's NOON and I learned something already.

I don't have to worry about a plane with one engine.

Maybe I'll take a nap.

[JetPhoto 626]

Not knowing much about flying I would think going all the way to Westcheter burned the fuel off instead of having to dump execss fuel (if they had to do something like that)