NY County Releases all FD Response Times to Public

[paro22 1]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45279147/Onondaga-County-Fire-Department-Response-Times

http://www.9wsyr.com/media/lib/17/d/e/2/de2f16bc-4a4e-4586-bd3b-97fcb994bffb/Agency_Response_Time_Report_November_2010_v2.pdf

In my home county (Onondaga), the new county executive has pledged to make ‘taxpayer services’ more transparent to the public, and recently released the average response times for all 53 fire departmtents in the county. (Background: Onondaga County is located in Central NY and has a population of about 450,000. Its makeup is primarily suburban, with some pretty rural areas. Its main city is Syracuse, which boasts an ISO Class 1 FD – the rest of the county is 100% volunteer, with the exception of about 4 ‘combination’ departments)

The average response times ranged from 3:57 (Syracuse Fire Department) to 15:48 (a rural volunteer Department), and it has caused a lot of discussion amongst the public and amongst the fire departments themselves.

Do any Counties down here make any of this information public? Do any of the volunteer (or paid) FF’s know their department’s average response time? (I didn’t)

Whether you agree or disagree with releasing this data, it definitely highlights some of the issues that many counties and fire departments are facing with regard to maintaining effective, volunteer-based FD’s…

Edited December 24, 2010 by paro22

[ems-buff 81]

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

The average response times ranged from 3:57 (Syracuse Fire Department) to 15:48 (a rural volunteer Department), and it has caused a lot of discussion amongst the public and amongst the fire departments themselves.

Do any Counties down here make any of this information public? Do any of the volunteer (or paid) FF’s know their department’s average response time? (I didn’t)

Well depending on where the call is, seems to dictate how long it will take to get to a scene. 15:48 ( rounding off to 16 minutes) seems to be excessvie don't you think. How spaced out is the coverage area of this "department" is. I'm sure if someone wants information on that, couldn't they just foil request respond times?

In the many departments I am a member of, and work for. I can say respone times on average are between 4-8 minutes.

Is there a National reqiured respond time, that all departments have to meet? I thought I read that somewhere..

[JohnnyOV 2]

  On 12/24/2010 at 3:16 PM, ems-buff said:

Is there a National reqiured respond time, that all departments have to meet? I thought I read that somewhere..

IIRC, the national standard is either 7-8 minutes 90% of the time

[helicopper 1,050]

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

Whether you agree or disagree with releasing this data, it definitely highlights some of the issues that many counties and fire departments are facing with regard to maintaining effective, volunteer-based FD’s…

It's public information and there's probably no way to keep it from being released. If you don't like the numbers, there's only one thing to do - improve them.

[smwells 7]

These numbers should be accessible to the public.

The numbers can be made to sound as good or bad as someone wants, but without the full picture of how these were generated they dont mean much.

A good example in EMS:

Does the response time stop at 1st medically trained person arriving (ALS flycar, CFR, EMT in POV with gear), or does it stop when an ambulance arrives?

Depending on the answer, the response time can be skewed by a significant amount yet the patient is getting treated (Which is our goal) and the need to expidite transport is mitigated. In many cases ambulances can be told to 'slow down' once the patient has been evaluated, reducing the risk to the responding crew and the public at large.

A number that does not get mentioned much in stats is 'on scene' time. If the patient is prepped for transport prior to ambulance arrival, this time is dimished greatly, in turn getting the patient to a facility quicker (Again, how the numbers are generated).

[grumpyff 1,159]

  On 12/24/2010 at 3:16 PM, ems-buff said:

Well depending on where the call is, seems to dictate how long it will take to get to a scene. 15:48 ( rounding off to 16 minutes) seems to be excessvie don't you think. How spaced out is the coverage area of this "department" is. I'm sure if someone wants information on that, couldn't they just foil request respond times?

In the many departments I am a member of, and work for. I can say respone times on average are between 4-8 minutes.

Is there a National reqiured respond time, that all departments have to meet? I thought I read that somewhere..

16 minutes does sound excessive, but take at closer look at it. Figure 5 minutes from alarm dispatch for the volunteers to get a crew to the house and respond with an apparatus, with 10 minute driving time. Sure you could make it better, paid crews in house, more firehouses, but at what point is it economically unfeasible for the area you are serving? 16 minutes for a volunteer department in a rural setting isn't that bad, in a suburban/urban area it would be a nightmare. I would love to see what some of the times in Westchester/Putnam look like.

[Bnechis 3,961]

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

In my home county (Onondaga), the new county executive has pledged to make ‘taxpayer services’ more transparent to the public, and recently released the average response times for all 53 fire departmtents in the county.

Good for the County Exec. As more info is available to the public, the better we can justify our operation or request additional resources.

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

The average response times ranged from 3:57 (Syracuse Fire Department) to 15:48 (a rural volunteer Department), and it has caused a lot of discussion amongst the public and amongst the fire departments themselves.

That discusion is critical to service improvment. The problem is the info released is not enough to make for good discusion.

What is need is the following times:

Processing time (time to answer 911, transfer & or dispatch) + Turnout Time (time from dispatch till apparatus is on the road) + Response time (drive time) = total response time.

In addition the response time needs to indicate how many trained responders arrived with the 1st unit (and its onscene time) plus the total number of responders and apparatus that arrived in the remaining initial response and there onscene time.

Examples of why this is needed:

Your 1st due engine arrives with 1 FF in 4 minutes, but the remaining 3ff's take 15 minutes.

2 eng and a ladder arrive in 7 minutes with 4FF's

30 trained members arrive in 10 minutes, with long drive distances.

With just a list of total times how can anyone figure out if the problem is not enough members, not enough who can get the rigs or long distances because of rural area.

If a VFD with a single station "in town" but 20-50 road miles to cover in the outlying area maintains an intown response under 6 minutes, but outlying takes 20 minutes. This depts doing very well, but it may not look it.

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

Do any Counties down here make any of this information public? Do any of the volunteer (or paid) FF’s know their department’s average response time? (I didn’t)

They should, maybe that would force some depts to get their heads out of the sand. Since most depts do not accuratly document the times (as listed above) most do not know. Also average times are not considered the standard, fractile times are. The problem with an average time is if your average is 4 minutes that sounds very good, but that could mean on your last 20 calls; 19 took 3 minutes and 1 took 25, now if all the 3 minute calls were for automatic alarms and the 25 minute one was for a child trapped, you see why averages dont tell the real picture.

  On 12/24/2010 at 4:19 AM, paro22 said:

Whether you agree or disagree with releasing this data, it definitely highlights some of the issues that many counties and fire departments are facing with regard to maintaining effective, volunteer-based FD’s…

Its a great start. If you are afraid of the public knowing this info, then you are no longer serving the public. They have a right to know.

[Bnechis 3,961]

  On 12/24/2010 at 3:52 PM, JohnnyOV said:

the national standard is either 7-8 minutes 90% of the time

The national standard for EMS is BLS onscene in 4 minutes and ALS in 8 90% of the time. That includes the ambulance in 8 (so in systems with ALS flycar or medic/engine) either BLS transport is 4 minutes & 8 minutes for the flycar or 4 minutes for ALS and 8 for transport. This is based on AHA, American Amb. Assoc and NFPA standards.

For Fire calls the standard is 1st due engine (with 3ff's/1off) in 4 minutes and the remainder of the 1st alarm assignment in 8 minutes (minimum of 16 firefighters & officers). This based on NFPA. ISO while not using time, they use response distances (and calculate the response time based on it). If you cant meet the times (which they also consider if members are inhouse or not) then you need to double the number of responders.

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

Response times for career fire is covered by NFPA 1710 as stated in another comment thread above.

Volunteer is NFPA 1720 which is to assemble a 4 person team within 10 minutes on-scene 90% of the time. NFPA 1720 allows for your further or once-in-awhile short staffing for up to 10%.

We have to recognize that taxpayers are no longer willing to pay for for these standards and you can address that by a public meeting and state the facts, including costs and losses that will come from not being able to meet these standards. If your in the few fortunate places that the residents say raise taxes to pay for it, than God Bless you. I doubt many, if any, can say raise taxes any longer.

[Bnechis 3,961]

  On 12/26/2010 at 5:30 AM, TFD141@aol.com said:

Volunteer is NFPA 1720 which is to assemble a 4 person team within 10 minutes on-scene 90% of the time. NFPA 1720 allows for your further or once-in-awhile short staffing for up to 10%.

Yes the NFPA 1720 standard allows for only 4 members in 10 minutes. To bad the Law in NYS requires more personnel than 1720 if you plan on entering the structure (29cfr1910.134). And based on the 10 minutes, many depts in this article do not even meet this. Is it that 1720 allows less members or more time 10% of the time? And that does not change the AHA standard for EMS and they nor grandma cares if the crew is paid or volunteer when grandpa is on the floor.

  On 12/26/2010 at 5:30 AM, TFD141@aol.com said:

We have to recognize that taxpayers are no longer willing to pay for for these standards and you can address that by a public meeting and state the facts, including costs and losses that will come from not being able to meet these standards. If your in the few fortunate places that the residents say raise taxes to pay for it, than God Bless you. I doubt many, if any, can say raise taxes any longer.

1st depts need to be honest about what they actually provide. Response time is 1 thing, trained members who show up at calls is another. Their are still many depts that claim to have 100's of members, but cant get 4 to show up. There are combo depts. that run with substandard number of career because the community still thinks the vols. show up when they have not in years.

If people understood whats provided and what it costs you'd have a better shot at it. Particularly when you can show what the other costs of fire protection are (particularly insurance costs).