Response to MVA's

[Remember585 815]

On a related note, it would be really something if we could have better communications. Either centralized communications and/or a true trunked radio system so everyone going to the same job can talk to each other.

We were first to arrive over the scene of an MVA tonight and we notified TWO different dispatch "centers" of the correct location. This information apparently didn't filter out to the majority of responders because I watched many of them going in the wrong direction.

Chris,

Trust me when I tell you this - when your dispatcher calls over to us at 60 with any kind of direction or patient updates, we relay it to responding units. However there are times that we don't get this info until units have committed to a certain response route. And, there's also some that are told the location many times and continue to go the wrong way.

For the record, I have personally experienced similar activities in the other respect - where we update a PD or I listen to a PD getting told exactly where something is and they still don't go the right way. I guess some of us just pick a route and commit to it...

And the ability for all of us to be able to communicate.... at least fire and EMS has the equipment to do it. Some just choose not to.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

We dispatch fire apparatus to all accidents where personal injury takes place, the response level is determined by the EMD. If it's an unknown accident they go cold unless it sounds serious and then it's at the discretion of the call taker to upgrade the response. Different types of accidents get different apparatus, and anything on the highway gets a truck company to block traffic.

Even if the fire department isn't needed to extinguish a fire, extricate a patient or mitigate a spill, they are still very useful for assisting in the movement/treatment of patients and blocking/controlling traffic.

Not sending the fire department to an accident witn injuries sounds like a dangerous practice.

[v85 212]

Helicopper brought up a good point.

Does your agency have the capability for "car-to-car" communications between PD/FD/EMS without having to go through dispatch, or only having to go through one dispatcher?

In my town, two of the fire districts' car 1's are police officers for the town. It is not uncommon, therefore, to hear them provide police information about MVA's to responding officers using their take-home police radios.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

If we are dispatched and the pd advises no or minor injuries, the ambulance will continue. Mainly to complete RMA's and will respond with traffic.

In some cases there are no reported injuries, but fluids on the ground then the rescue rolls with traffic.

Regardless, once we are dispatched we have to complete the NIFRS and the only way to complete it correctly is to make a presence on scene.

[v85 212]

What is NIFRS, is that the FD eqiuvalent to a PCR?

[NWFDMedic 58]

Regardless, once we are dispatched we have to complete the NIFRS and the only way to complete it correctly is to make a presence on scene.

That is incorrect. There is an option on the NFIRS for a canceled call.

[petervonb 9]

Oh for the good old days .... To begin with, back then FD, EMS and PD all had their own phone numbers.

The FD was dispatched by a police agency, and always treated like the poor stepchild by the agency and the dispatchers, who were POs doing penance for some screwup. The EMS was dispatched by a private answering service (we are talking pre-911, of course).

If PD got a call for an accident with injuries, they would dispatch their unit and then call the answering service (AS). AS would tone out the ambulance; the members would get out of bed, get dressed, go to the rig or the scene ... and discover extrication was needed. (Sometimes on-scene PD would come to the same conclusion.) EMS would call AS, who would then call PD dispatch, who would tone out FD for extrication. Imagine how much of the golden hour has already passed by now.

Anyway, FD members would get out of bed, get dressed, go the the rig and drive to the scene to begin extrication. We're into the second half of the hour by now.

If the original caller called AS instead of PD, AS would tone out EMS and advise PD dispatch.

We figured it would be better to have FD and the extrication equipment on scene available for use if needed same time EMS got there, so we set up an arrangement with AS.

If AS got the initial call for an accident involving injury or possible injury, they would dispatch EMS and then call PD (using the FD phone number), identify themselves, and ask PD to dispatch FD. PD dispatch would assume the request had come from EMS via their AS, so they would dispatch FD, and FD would be on the road same time as EMS.

If PD got the initial call, they would call AS and ask them to dispatch EMS. AS would do so and then tell PD to dispatch FD. Same result.

AS was the key here because PD dispatch would not have gone along with the idea of having FD dispatched automatically to a PIAA (personal injury automobile accident) because they would rather have their own guy let them know if FD was needed. If EMS asked for FD, they would go along with it. PD POs at that time were notorious for not trying to find out if there were any injuries.

So the system worked great: FD got dispatched on all PIAAs (and not on PDAAs - Property Damage Automobile Accidents).

PD POs on scene would keep wondering why the FD was arriving. (Some of them took umbrage and tried to stop FD from providing proper scene safety, threatening to arrest them if they closed a lane or the road itself.) Most PIAAs did not involve extrication, but for those that did, FD was cutting 10 - 15 minutes off the golden hour.

One day someone actually told the FD chief what was going on (it had been worked out with an assistant chief because the chief would not have understood what was being attempted or why). Enough positive comment came from this setup and its results that eventually PD dispatch was brought into the loop as well and was given formal instructions to dispatch FD on all PIAAs (needless to say this required OK from Coordinator, who was of the same mentality as the FD Chief and it took a long time for him to be convinced). The PD Communications Supervisor regularly conveniently forgot to make sure his dispatchers followed the new protocol, but eventually he came around too - sort of.

Many of the older POs were never happy, but the newer ones were less into Control Issues and appreciated the traffic help. There were also still POs who would not report an injury because it would screw up traffic - let someone else call for EMS. One time one of those die-hards tried to turn the FD around as it approached a scene with the comment "No injuries, FD not needed - no one is injured". FD continued in anyway and EMS ended up using 5 ambulances to transport something like 11 injured.

Things have improved.

FD response to all PIAAs is one rescue (with 2 sets of jaws and lots of traffic control stuff) followed by a pumper (with another set of jaws), and then a utility truck with more traffic stuff.

We don't use the term "MVA" because it does not distinguish between injury and non-injury.

[ny10570 745]

Back to the original scenario why wouldn't a car into the woods be treated like a pin? How about a roll over or car into a structure?

Unless the FD does EMS runs and there's no obvious pin or fluid spill why take the risk running them? Depts are starting to address commercial alarms with reduced response, why would this be any different?

[aviator70 16]

Dude, I'm only going by what you wrote. You said "all" and went on to talk about the importance of a prompt response for our loved ones so it appeared that you did in fact mean ALL.

I know, I did not say what I meant clearly, my fault. Sorry. I was trying to say something but could not find a way to get across what I wanted to say easily and clearly, and w/o writing a book. My apologies for jumping down you throat. Poor wording on my part.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Unless the FD does EMS runs and there's no obvious pin or fluid spill why take the risk running them? Depts are starting to address commercial alarms with reduced response, why would this be any different?

Because the FD has large nearly immovable objects to place between you and other motorists for your safety. I watched a drunk one night weave through three marked units (lit up)while he gawked the scene only to stop when there was no room for him to get around the engine. He looked completely surprised that he couldn't keep going and even more surprised as he was dragged through the car window and cuffed by multiple officers. The stories of personnel, EMS, FD, and PD being struck at MVA's is endless, and the risk is far greater than a one or two apparatus response if teh FD has any type of responsible driver training program. A few places in MD this might not fit...

[dashield 61]

To give some background information, this thread stems from an incident that happened in Orange County. Basically, a fire department had, as its SOG's not to roll to MVA's unless confirmed entrapment or fire. This area had a report of a car into the woods, but no confirmed entrapment. As per SOG, only PD and EMS were sent. Upon arriving on scene they found a patient (later determined to be DOA) entrapped in the vehicle. This resulted in a delayed dispatch of FD.

I am an Assistant Chief in the above mentioned department... To give a little insight on this post our Department runs an average of 450-500 calls a year (no EMS). As long as I have remembered we only respond to MVA's in which we are requested or if their is a report of entrapment, fire, wires down or other possible need for FD. I would only assume the reason we started this "protocol" was to cut down on calls in which our services are not required.

We do this with CO calls as well.....going back 10-15 years ago when the big headlines in the news were death contributed to Carbon Monoxide every one started (rightfully so) installing CO detectors in there houses). No long after that there was a huge increase of calls for CO detectors sounding, to the point that a night did not go by without getting dispatched to at least 1 CO detector sounding. Naturally, our turnout for these calls started to rapidly decrease. To address this problem a new dispatching protocol was created in which a chief officer would only be dispatched to respond to a report of a CO detector sounding with no one in the residence complaining of any symptoms. If there is a report of symptoms or an automatic CO alarm the entire department is dispatched out. This seems to work good for us and saves the guys from responding to a couple of calls.

With MVA’s our department is predominantly dispatched by the town Police Department so the dispatchers decide based on call information if the FD might be required. So unless they get a report of “serious mva”, entrapment, report of fire or some other unusual circumstance they do not dispatch us. For fluid on the roadway it is in the town code that in order to tow in the town all tow trucks must carry a minimum amount of speedy dry to handle the run of the mill anti-freeze or oil on the roadway. Anything unordinary the FD will respond. From personal experience, as a past police officer in the town (prior to switching careers and going to the FD) the last thing I wanted at an accident scene if they were not required was the fire department. If the FD was needed I would be the first one to call them but if they are not needed at the scene I did not want them there. The town “volunteer” (mostly paid) ambulance corp responds to MVA’s with two ambulances and usually two medic fly cars so on the EMS side of things no help is needed.

I will be the first to admit that their have been sporadic problems in the past when we should have been dispatched but were not (usually it has personnel issue). The protocol that is in place works for us, it might not work for your department but for us it saves us from a couple hundred more calls a year (especially when our services is not required).

[NWFDMedic 58]

Chief, we've beaten this policy to death in our own town, so there's really no reason to beat it here in a public forum. I do have a couple of observations though, strictly related to the procedure, not our town's case or the particular call in question...

First, it is my belief that most county dispatch centers operate to some sort of standard information gathering protocol. There is EMD for medical related incidents but there are also similar protocols for fire and PD. If a call is triaged by a nationally accepted protocol to MVA-Fire Response, is there any liability on the FD or the local PSAP if they decide to follow a different guideline for the dispatch of FD? An associated question for the dispatchers would be if it is appropriate to institute different response protocols for each agency that is dispatched? For EMS, the county uses EMD to prioritize calls and the only deviations were instituted county-wide (i.e. the county's mostly volunteer BLS EMS agencies did not believe seizures should ever be coded P-4).

The second issue is more police related. Back when I worked in an area that had volunteer FD response only upon "confirmed" situation, the PD often took several liberties in order to avoid the FD response. On more than one occasion, I had a PD officer pulling on a door saying "it's not stuck that bad and I don't need the FD here @#$#ing up traffic". When I requested the FD to respond, I was told that the PD wasn't going to allow it. To the LEO's out there (not you chief, as I've worked alongside you for years and know your opinion and experience), is there some type of lack of training or respect for the priorities of PD, FD, and EMS at the scenes of MVA's? I'm not looking for individual cases where agency A did this but rather some suggestions that might help all 3 functions work well together. It seems to me that FD and EMS in most areas seem to drill together (although not enough) to address interagency concerns but the PD is rarely a participant.

[ny10570 745]

Because the FD has large nearly immovable objects to place between you and other motorists for your safety. I watched a drunk one night weave through three marked units (lit up)while he gawked the scene only to stop when there was no room for him to get around the engine. He looked completely surprised that he couldn't keep going and even more surprised as he was dragged through the car window and cuffed by multiple officers. The stories of personnel, EMS, FD, and PD being struck at MVA's is endless, and the risk is far greater than a one or two apparatus response if teh FD has any type of responsible driver training program. A few places in MD this might not fit...

Perfectly good reason to add FD to highway assignments. But on local roads? Do you add FD to any job where the bus will be parked in the street?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Perfectly good reason to add FD to highway assignments. But on local roads? Do you add FD to any job where the bus will be parked in the street?

We do it on all calls. For typical EMS calls we don't see the same "gawkers", traffic is barely inconvenienced, and the crew's time in the street is far less. We do send an engine on all calls in the street, such as fallen in the crosswalk, bicyclists injured in the roadway, etc. We're of course not trying to eliminate calls, being a combo career/POC staffed department, so no one is missing time from work for "needless" calls. Some days are hectic, but most days guys would rather be out doing something than in quarters.

[Atv300 69]

I am just gonna give a short and sweet reply to this. Agreed FD probably dose not have to go to all mva's but here is the deal obvious calls they are needed tools in operation fluids fire hazard ect. But they should there for any time people are working in the roadway a 20plus ton fire truck is a better spot for a stray car then the group of pd and ems.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Atv300

[Guest lad56der]

Anytime the bus is dispatched to a MVA, our engine/rescue is dispatched also.

[milan fire dept probie 2]

In my dept we role an engine, rescue, ambulance, and 1 or 2 utilities....depending on the situation or location the engine and rescue will be returned and the utilities used for traffic control or the rescue with manpower will assist with traffic and/or ems duties.

[mdm911 5]

Mva with injuries - one engine

Mva with serious injury, entrapment, rollover, fire or on arterial/rt 9 - one engine & one truck.

[NWFDMedic 58]

In my dept we role an engine, rescue, ambulance, and 1 or 2 utilities....depending on the situation or location the engine and rescue will be returned and the utilities used for traffic control or the rescue with manpower will assist with traffic and/or ems duties.

How is the old New Windsor R-448 doing up there in Milan?

[Alpinerunner 61]

On a related note, it would be really something if we could have better communications. Either centralized communications and/or a true trunked radio system so everyone going to the same job can talk to each other.

This is very true. We respond to MVAs with possibly injuries reported by the occupant, caller, or PD with an engine, rescue, and ALS bus.

We get a decicated channel for the engine, rescue and EMS, but PD is always separate. Many times they can get on scene first but rarely does disaptch relay their updates to us. However, we do allow PD to cancel everyone if it's clear there are no injuries.

[antiquefirelt 994]

On a related note, it would be really something if we could have better communications. Either centralized communications and/or a true trunked radio system so everyone going to the same job can talk to each other.

Our area has three dedicated mutual aid frequencies that all radios have in them (or are supposed to) aside from each FD's tactical freqs. Two are Fire/EMS channels and one is a LE freq. any can be assigned to any agency or incident by the comm center or upon the IC's request. For the day to day stuff these freqs are not used, and actually getting LE and Fire/EMS on the same is difficult. But, specifically for our dept, we have the PD's primary channel and they have ours, either can directly access each other with no permission from dispatch. We get direct info from LEO's at the scene very frequently, as well as give them info if we're requesting them to a scene where they're not present. Our state has had an interoperable comms plan for many years and all PS radios are supposed to have 5 CONOPS frequencies so that large incidents can be assigned channels that everyone has access to. Our only glitch is in the near future all State Police assets will move to the 700 mhz range, which none of the other dept's in the state are on.

[petervonb 9]

The second issue is more police related. Back when I worked in an area that had volunteer FD response only upon "confirmed" situation, the PD often took several liberties in order to avoid the FD response. On more than one occasion, I had a PD officer pulling on a door saying "it's not stuck that bad and I don't need the FD here @#$#ing up traffic". When I requested the FD to respond, I was told that the PD wasn't going to allow it.

Sounds like some of that crap we had in the "good old days" still goes on. Power trips; Control issues; Inflated egos.