Response to MVA's

[v85 212]

To give some background information, this thread stems from an incident that happened in Orange County. Basically, a fire department had, as its SOG's not to roll to MVA's unless confirmed entrapment or fire. This area had a report of a car into the woods, but no confirmed entrapment. As per SOG, only PD and EMS were sent. Upon arriving on scene they found a patient (later determined to be DOA) entrapped in the vehicle. This resulted in a delayed dispatch of FD.

The discussion is now what the FD's response policy should be for MVA's. Should FD respond on all, or almost all, MVA's, or only on certain ones?( this can also be extended to include EMS, ALS, Medevac's on standby, etc) Personally, I see pros and cons to both sides.

Responding to all MVA's

Pros:

+ Resources are there, or at least closer if needed

+ More experience for members

Cons:

- Increased risk of apparatus accidents

- Burn-out of members (If the tones are dropping 20+ times a day for fender benders with barely a scratch, eventually people will stop responding)

- A "too many cooks spoil the broth" situation on scene

- More apparatus out of service/unavailable for other calls

-Not sustainable in severe weather situations (There is only a fixed amount of apparatus, to say nothing of medevac's or ALS rigs)

Responding to certain MVA's

Pros:

+ Preventing all of the cons listed above

Cons

- Delay in accessing a patient in critical need of care

I personally like the approach the district that I live in FD takes. They will respond to any MVA with reported fire, major fluids leaking, roll-over, ejection, entrapment, car into tree, car into pole, car into water, or head on collision. Dispatch also has the discretion to send them any time they feel an FD response is needed.

The original thread, in case anyone is interested is available here:

http://thewatchdesk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=593371#post593371

What do you think?

[OoO 24]

Coming from an EMS provider's prospective, I find it extremely helpful to have FD on scene, especially on the highway. Backboarding a patient out of a car can be challenging with just 2 people (I know some VACs roll with 4+, but when that's not the case) plus the FD is very helpful for traffic control and ensuring scene safety.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Send them, you can always turn them back. If burn out is a problem then find new/better people. MVAs are one of the best things a department can do to stay visible and proactive in the community.

[38ff 250]

I agree with V85's statement of how his dept runs. If a dept goes out to every fender bender, it's putting alot of apparatus at risk, and will lead to member burnout.

My dept does not run EMS. My dept operates in a similar fashion to V85's. We have a great relationship with the PD, and they (and county dispatch) know when we may be needed, and also when we arent.

[sfrd18 360]

I personally like the approach the district that I live in FD takes. They will respond to any MVA with reported fire, major fluids leaking, roll-over, ejection, entrapment, car into tree, car into pole, car into water, or head on collision. Dispatch also has the discretion to send them any time they feel an FD response is needed.

The original thread, in case anyone is interested is available here:

http://thewatchdesk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=593371#post593371

What do you think?

This is a great discussion topic. It's a sticky question, with many opinions, ideas, views, and experiences linked to it's answer.

In my opinion, I think that the fire department should respond to certain(however most) MVA's in their city/town/district, but not all. I also feel that the decision as to if and or when the fire department should respond should be based on the information acquired and the decisions made by dispatch and or the first arriving emergency units on scene, such as city/state police(I found that the police in my area are usually always dispatched and are also the first to arrive at the scene of an accident, big or small).

If dispatch receives a 9-1-1 call with the informant saying someone rear-ended him/her, and if it's determined that it's minor or a fender-bender, I feel that dispatch should dispatch PD and or EMS first to the scene, prior to the fire department. On any other occasion, whether it be a fire, major fluids leaking, roll-over, ejection, entrapment, car into tree, car into pole, car into building, car into water, or head-on collision reported(as said above), I feel that dispatch should request the fire department to respond, if however, that information can be determined. However, depending on the type of accident, dispatch should determine how many or of what type of fire apparatus to send. For example, if it's a reported fluid leak, the dispatch should be one engine at the least. For an entrapment or any other type of accident where an actual collision or a victim is mentioned, one-two engines and a rescue/squad or any other unit with extrication equipment. I think that a department should have a response protocol for each different type of MVA's, and not just vague and broad minor MVA's and extrications that can be one of many situations. Everything also depends on what type and the number of apparatus a department has(whether it be paid or volunteer), or has available from another department to them, and or if the department operates as the EMS provider, or if it's provided by another, either volunteer or paid ambulance service.

My dept. usually runs an engine and a rescue, or just a rescue on all MVA's, other than fluid spills. On fluid spills and car fires, we usually run an engine, a rescue, or both, depending what the first unit on scene reports. Because our rescue is more like a squad engine(i.e. it has a pump, hose, and engine company equipment on board), it can respond as a rescue, while performing engine company capabilities. For example, say that there's an MVA reported with smoke, or something of that nature. If only our rescue goes for one reason or another, and if there is a car fire, we already have, essentially, an engine on scene. However, most departments around where I live and work operate engines and a straight-forward rescue. This goes especially for cities that don't have squad engines in addition.

Just my $0.02.

Edited December 17, 2010 by sfrd18

[38ff 250]

The above posters comment of "find new or better people", well I find that easy to say, but hard to do.....

Edited December 17, 2010 by 38ff

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The above posters comment of "find new or better people", well I find that easy to say, but hard to do.....

If you can't find community members willing to come out and help out other community members when they are in need then you need to start paying people to help. There is no excuse for PO Smith, Driver Roy and EMT Johnny to be the only ones on a scene because the local fire department is afraid that its members might get burnt out by responding on one more minor MVA.

[v85 212]

For those of you who said that you go on MVA's, I'm just curious in finding out what your department responds with.

The FD in my town responds with 2 engines (the zone engine and the rescue company's engine) and 1 rescue. On a major incident the Fire Police support vehicle(s) also respond. This is in addition to the members that respond in POV's

[antiquefirelt 994]

We staff both the EMS rigs and the fire apparatus so the answer to me is obvious that an apparatus roll every time EMS rolls. We do this to maintain a safe zone for the EMS crew to work. The police in our area are also overtaxed and generally cannot fully manage the traffic and work the accident, thus it is in our best interest to block the travel lane(s) that our crew is in with a substantial object (fire engine). This also provides more hands to board victims or obtain sign offs.

A neighboring FD used to respond only at specific request or when entrapment was noted upon dispatch, for the reasons of "burnout" and unnecessary responses. Now they respond to any MVA with injury and turnouts are no less than every before.

Having been clipped by a passing motorist at an accident with three PD units on scene, I'll always argue that the FD provide a safe working zone. At the rate officers get struck, I can't understand why they tend to be so upset with traffic vs. their and our safety.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Lucky for us, our wonderful police dispatchers send us to only what they feel is necessary.... <br>

[38ff 250]

My dept rolls at a minimum a heavy rescue and engine as per SOP. If the IC wants more, all he needs to do is key the mike.

If the PD or EMS wants us there, we're a radio call away and happy to come.

The excuse for us not to be there is because they didnt feel our presence was required. We've operated this way for a long time, and it works well for the PD, FD, and EMS in our town, as everyone is in agreeance with the plan.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Lucky for us, our wonderful police dispatchers send us to only what they feel is necessary.... <br>

When the above occurs, and injuries are confirmed by the pd, our response is ambulance 1st due , rescue 2nd due and engine third due.

In the event extrication is needed , confirmed by FD the second rescue and ambulance are automatically dispatched.

In the event we are dispatched to fluids, then it is engine and rescue in that order.

In the event we are dispatched to a mva with fire, the engine goes first.

[conman 40]

In my county, dispatch makes pretty much makes the determination on who goes. Most accidents they poll for a police agency. If they feel the need for Fire and EMS then get dispatched with the PD. If it seems minor then they poll of a police agency. If the officer on scene feels the need for Fire and EMS then they have them dispatched. As for my department, we fun a rescue pumper and a BLS ambulance with a mutal aid ALS ambulance from Mobile Life. If we need assistance we request a rescue pumper from one of our neighboring departments.

[helicopper 1,050]

If the PD or EMS wants us there, we're a radio call away and happy to come.

That's a good attitude. Now let's put the shoe on the other foot... You are dispatched and PD gets there and confirms that it's a minor fender bender with no injuries.

Do you continue to respond or go back to quarters and whatever you were doing before the call?

We have in our area some sections of roadway with a dual response so you get 2E and 1L from EACH direction. Sometimes the northbound apparatus will stop in the left lane and cross three lanes of traffic to access a scene on the southbound side or vice versa. In the rare instance that 4E and 2L are required that's nice but 99% of the time most of it is not required.

I know there are many departments who don't think the police are "qualified" or "authorized" to cancel an FD response but sometimes its just a little bit crazy.

[38ff 250]

If we are dispatched, we will come. If the PD gets there first and it's minor and dispatch tells us so, we would slow down our response. We wont return to quarters unless told by the FD IC on scene, or we get there and evaluate. We trust our PD agencies, but belive in the "trust, but verify" motto.

[huzzie59 75]

That's a good attitude. Now let's put the shoe on the other foot... You are dispatched and PD gets there and confirms that it's a minor fender bender with no injuries.

Do you continue to respond or go back to quarters and whatever you were doing before the call?

We have in our area some sections of roadway with a dual response so you get 2E and 1L from EACH direction. Sometimes the northbound apparatus will stop in the left lane and cross three lanes of traffic to access a scene on the southbound side or vice versa. In the rare instance that 4E and 2L are required that's nice but 99% of the time most of it is not required.

I know there are many departments who don't think the police are "qualified" or "authorized" to cancel an FD response but sometimes its just a little bit crazy.

Most of our departments still send the full box assignment when the police call back and tell us the automatic alarms is food on the stove. Why would we go back when there really is an accident?

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

Where I live, which is pretty far away from everyone else on this forum, County 911 always tones out FD for all MVA's, whether its a Code 2 (MVA w/o injuries) or Code 4 (MVA w/ injuries). On Code 2's FD responds for traffic control without lights or sirens. On Code 4's EMS and FD respond. At my FD when we get paged out for a Code 2 we send our utility truck for TC and for a Code 4 we send a rescue (1st) and usually engine depending on how many people show up. Just a little info on how things go down here.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Portsmouth OH Fire Buff

[aviator70 16]

They should roll to all auto accidents. The taxpayers pay for the service, and are entitled to it, and until it is known for fact they are not needed, they should be on the way, I think the post above is very well put on how they are dispatched, using various levels of seriousness to tone out what kind of response it should be. Would you want your loved one to die because the FD did not roll because somebody who may have no professional knowledge or expertise or who did not report that there was an injury involved and there was a delay in the response???? Yes, there is risk, there is risk in everything we all do, you can help reduce risk, but never eliminate it. I also understand the money and manpowe issues, and certainly sympathize with all, but, this is what some of us volunteer or are paid to do.

[helicopper 1,050]

If we are dispatched, we will come. If the PD gets there first and it's minor and dispatch tells us so, we would slow down our response. We wont return to quarters unless told by the FD IC on scene, or we get there and evaluate. We trust our PD agencies, but belive in the "trust, but verify" motto.

Most of our departments still send the full box assignment when the police call back and tell us the automatic alarms is food on the stove. Why would we go back when there really is an accident?

Herein lies one of the fundamental issues with the way we all operate. If the FD isn't on scene yet, the PD is the IC and the general consensus is (from this and other threads) that this IC can't cancel resources that aren't needed. Only the FD can cancel FD resources, right? You'll trust us when we say the fire is fully involved but if we say it is unfounded, you're still coming?

As for the food on stove example, I am only referring to car accidents - not fire calls - because there is definite merit to having the FD investigate a call where there was a fire or smoke condition. As for the accident, if there is no injury, just property damage, why wouldn't you go back?

They should roll to all auto accidents. The taxpayers pay for the service, and are entitled to it, and until it is known for fact they are not needed, they should be on the way, I think the post above is very well put on how they are dispatched, using various levels of seriousness to tone out what kind of response it should be. Would you want your loved one to die because the FD did not roll because somebody who may have no professional knowledge or expertise or who did not report that there was an injury involved and there was a delay in the response???? Yes, there is risk, there is risk in everything we all do, you can help reduce risk, but never eliminate it. I also understand the money and manpowe issues, and certainly sympathize with all, but, this is what some of us volunteer or are paid to do.

All auto accidents? Seriously? If the FD responded to all auto accidents they'd need a lot more companies because they'd all be committed to those responses all day long. On an average rainy day there may be 20 accidents in a given shift (sometimes way more) but only a fraction of them involve injuries. Using your rationale we should replace every HELP truck with an ambulance because the taxpayers are entitled to an EMS response to every accident. That just doesn't make sense. Almost every dispatch agency I'm aware of will err on the side of caution and assign EMS/FD based on the number of calls or information received but to send them on everything just doesn't make sense.

I don't want anyone to die because of an inappropriate response but if we're going to start banging that drum we should focus on making sure every response is timely and with a professional and well-trained crew.

[FFBlaser 24]

Every MVA is different... and can be a little more tricky then the eye...

I usually respond on all MVA's and if PD says that it's minor I will still continue non-expedited.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Herein lies one of the fundamental issues with the way we all operate. If the FD isn't on scene yet, the PD is the IC and the general consensus is (from this and other threads) that this IC can't cancel resources that aren't needed. Only the FD can cancel FD resources, right? You'll trust us when we say the fire is fully involved but if we say it is unfounded, you're still coming?

Lets flip this around. We respond FD & EMS to a skilled nursing facility (read gods waiting room) for an abdominal pain. We arrive 2 minutes ahead of ALS and find a patient with minor complaint. We perform a primary & are in the middle of the secondary assessment when ALS arrives. They complete the assessment and release FD. On the way out of the building we encounter the PD sector officer walking in. Advise him of the situation and that we are not needed. He continues toward the patient and I ask: "why" is PD needed on this? While I was no longer IC (turned that over to EMS). The response was PD needs to investigate every call to confirm that no crime was committed. Why in your senario is it ok for PD to make a determnation but in mine FD can not? Does PD need to respond to every FD call?

[aviator70 16]

Herein lies one of the fundamental issues with the way we all operate. If the FD isn't on scene yet, the PD is the IC and the general consensus is (from this and other threads) that this IC can't cancel resources that aren't needed. Only the FD can cancel FD resources, right? You'll trust us when we say the fire is fully involved but if we say it is unfounded, you're still coming?

As for the food on stove example, I am only referring to car accidents - not fire calls - because there is definite merit to having the FD investigate a call where there was a fire or smoke condition. As for the accident, if there is no injury, just property damage, why wouldn't you go back?

All auto accidents? Seriously? If the FD responded to all auto accidents they'd need a lot more companies because they'd all be committed to those responses all day long. On an average rainy day there may be 20 accidents in a given shift (sometimes way more) but only a fraction of them involve injuries. Using your rationale we should replace every HELP truck with an ambulance because the taxpayers are entitled to an EMS response to every accident. That just doesn't make sense. Almost every dispatch agency I'm aware of will err on the side of caution and assign EMS/FD based on the number of calls or information received but to send them on everything just doesn't make sense.

I don't want anyone to die because of an inappropriate response but if we're going to start banging that drum we should focus on making sure every response is timely and with a professional and well-trained crew.

I did not mean every auto accident literally! Come on now, lets have common sense prevail here. If it is an obvious fender bender, then of course I would not think the FD would respond. Dispatchers can get a good sense of the situation in the phone calls and number of phone calls. But if there is doubt, send them.

[kurt 5]

In dutchess county the fire dept is dispatched to all mva with injury and if the caller isn't sure if anyone is hurt they send everyone until fire gets on scene and say other wise keep in mind we all still have a duty to act my dept responds to a lot of accident on parkway and a lot of times people driving by call these in so we don't know to we get there my dept respond 1 engine 1 rescue 1 brush truck for traffic 1 pick up truck support vehicle for traffic and 1 ambulance and a medic is dispatched on all priority calls 1 calls

[INIT915 1,119]

Lets flip this around. We respond FD & EMS to a skilled nursing facility (read gods waiting room) for an abdominal pain. We arrive 2 minutes ahead of ALS and find a patient with minor complaint. We perform a primary & are in the middle of the secondary assessment when ALS arrives. They complete the assessment and release FD. On the way out of the building we encounter the PD sector officer walking in. Advise him of the situation and that we are not needed. He continues toward the patient and I ask: "why" is PD needed on this? While I was no longer IC (turned that over to EMS). The response was PD needs to investigate every call to confirm that no crime was committed. Why in your senario is it ok for PD to make a determnation but in mine FD can not? Does PD need to respond to every FD call?

In that scenario, if the PO actually said that, he is, in no uncertain terms, an idiot. I guarantee the only reason he continued on, was to get a name and DOB (and any other information required by his agency) in order to close out a report. And no, PD does not need to respond to EVERY EMS call.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We have the "no one turns us around but us" policy. It's not a slap int he face to our PD, but basically an acknowledgement that they are there for other reasons than we are. We slow our response, even call off multiple units, but one bus always continues if injuries were reported at any point. This does a few things: one it absolves the city of liability incurred when a non-EMS provider(LEO) agrees with a victims' self-assessment and is wrong about their medical needs; and two, we're been called countless times to "PD Only" accidents where the LEO is onscene for 20 minutes and suddenly the pain sets in and EMS is called. Of course we do not have 4 units responding or even multiple houses, so mass confusion at the scene is very rare. We don't give criminal advice, LEO's don't give medical advice, and everyone is capable of reporting fire or smoke showing. And we do not respond to all MVA's by any stretch, PD handles probably 60% without us, we only respond when injuries are reported or fire/fluids/etc. are an issue.

Edited December 18, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[Goose 188]

We have the "no one turns us around but us" policy. It's not a slap int he face to our PD, but basically an acknowledgement that they are there for other reasons than we are. We slow our response, even call off multiple units, but one bus always continues if injuries were reported at any point. This does a few things: one it absolves the city of liability incurred when a non-EMS provider(LEO) agrees with a victims' self-assessment and is wrong about their medical needs; and two, we're been called countless times to "PD Only" accidents where the LEO is onscene for 20 minutes and suddenly the pain sets in and EMS is called. Of course we do not have 4 units responding or even multiple houses, so mass confusion at the scene is very rare. We don't give criminal advice, LEO's don't give medical advice, and everyone is capable of reporting fire or smoke showing. And we do not respond to all MVA's by any stretch, PD handles probably 60% without us, we only respond when injuries are reported or fire/fluids/etc. are an issue.

Sounds like a pretty good way of working things to me.

[helicopper 1,050]

Lets flip this around. We respond FD & EMS to a skilled nursing facility (read gods waiting room) for an abdominal pain. We arrive 2 minutes ahead of ALS and find a patient with minor complaint. We perform a primary & are in the middle of the secondary assessment when ALS arrives. They complete the assessment and release FD. On the way out of the building we encounter the PD sector officer walking in. Advise him of the situation and that we are not needed. He continues toward the patient and I ask: "why" is PD needed on this? While I was no longer IC (turned that over to EMS). The response was PD needs to investigate every call to confirm that no crime was committed. Why in your senario is it ok for PD to make a determnation but in mine FD can not? Does PD need to respond to every FD call?

Some jurisdictions require the PD to complete a report on aided cases so there will be times that happens. Sometimes they'll go to the hosptial after transport is completed to get the info for their report. If you canceled the PD prior to their arrival, they should be able to disregard as well.

I'm not saying its OK for PD to cancel FD but not the reverse. Quite the contrary, I think if resources aren't needed they should go home. I fail to understand the A can cancel me but not B. But that's just me, I guess.

[helicopper 1,050]

I did not mean every auto accident literally! Come on now, lets have common sense prevail here. If it is an obvious fender bender, then of course I would not think the FD would respond. Dispatchers can get a good sense of the situation in the phone calls and number of phone calls. But if there is doubt, send them.

Dude, I'm only going by what you wrote. You said "all" and went on to talk about the importance of a prompt response for our loved ones so it appeared that you did in fact mean ALL.

[helicopper 1,050]

On a related note, it would be really something if we could have better communications. Either centralized communications and/or a true trunked radio system so everyone going to the same job can talk to each other.

We were first to arrive over the scene of an MVA tonight and we notified TWO different dispatch "centers" of the correct location. This information apparently didn't filter out to the majority of responders because I watched many of them going in the wrong direction.

Information on the conditions at the scene were related by two different resources but there were still gaps/delays in the transmission of that information. This isn't the fault of any one dispatch "center" but rather one of the pitfalls we face in our area with so many different dispatchers, radio frequencies, and fiefdoms.

It would have been really something to get assigned to the accident group in a trunked system and have all four of the involved PD's, all the FD's and EMS agencies on the same communications net so all this information was relayed in a timely fashion. Apparatus wouldn't have to fight its way through stopped traffic or drive in the wrong direction away from the accident scene if we could all talk to each other.

But this will probably never happen during my career, hell it won't happen in my LIFETIME.

/rant

[Remember585 815]

This is a good topic, and one that always brings about some personal feelings.

In our community, we dispatch our Rescue and the First Due Engine to all MVAs along with EMS. If it is on Route 9 with reported / confirmed entrapment, it gets 2 Engines and the Rescue (To assist with road closing and keep POVs off of the highway). When the Rescue is OOS, the extrication tools usually go to E119, so in those scenarios you would have EMS and 2 Engines.

I won't go in to case histories or anything in the past about why we made this change. In a nutshell, it is done for these reasons;

1. The caller to 911 commonly will call in an accident while still driving by it. If you blow past an accident at 70 MPH it's hard to see how many patients there are, if anyone is trapped, if fluids are leaking out and so on.

2. The three emergency service branches going to MVAs have to be on the same page with a good working relationship. PD almost always gets to MVAs first and may determine that none of us are needed. If that is the case, a Chief generally verifies this and reports to the scene to confirm it. And many of those times, we hold the FD apparatus in quarters, and will relay what we have to EMS.

3. We cover the Village of Croton which is patrolled by the Croton PD. I would say that 99.5% of the time they are on scene at an MVA before we are. However, in the Fire Protection Districts within the Town of Cortlandt we cover, it isn't uncommon to await State or County Police for long periods of time. More often than not we do arrive at an MVA before they do, and again, we conduct a size-up and determine what resources are or aren't needed.

4. As a dispatcher, I can't tell you how many times I have been told "it looks really bad" and it isn't. I've also been told how it looks "pretty minor" only to have an arriving unit show up and start screaming for EMS to expedite, send us a chopper, etc. Perception of what has happened by Joe Public is never as good as that of a first responder (PD, FD or EMS).

5. If dispatch receives a call for an MVA with possible or unknown injuries in a roadway, especially highways, they should send everyone. If it is reported as a minor no injury accident, especially in parking lots, then I don't see the harm in sending the sector car. In these cases if someone "needs" (read: looking to sue someone) EMS, then they can call upon it.

As far as the discussion whether PD even needs to go to every fire or EMS call - I'm not about to get into that subject.