What Happened To Scene Size-Up?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

FIRST OFF: THIS IS NOT MEANT TO "BASH" ANY DEPARTMENTS! THIS IS JUST FUEL FOR THOUGHT/DISCUSSION.

I have been noticing myself getting quite frustrated lately while listening to different frequencies because I have noticed that a lot of the time (not all of the time), the first on scene Chief or Officer (paid or volunteer) does not give a scene size-up. Whether the call be for a residential alarm, reported smoke from the structure, possible fire of some sort, mva, rescue, etc scene size-ups can be very useful. It does not take more than a few seconds to tell dispatch or incoming units what you have been presented with and observed upon arrival. You can inform responders of building type (construction, stories, etc), exposure issues, visible smoke condition, etc. Giving responders the heads up can lead to a safer scene in general. It is always nice to not be caught of guard.

Now I know that at least on person will say, "You should know the building type or exposure issues for every house or building in your response area." All I can say is, chances are, there is not a single person who knows the construction type and exposures problems for every building in his or her district. Even if you do know everything about every building or house in your response area, I am sure that you would not object to a size-up or reminder. After all, even the best members, or the most senior members, or the members with the biggest ego's make mistakes and can confuse an address.

Just this weekend alone, I heard several departments get called to fires, mva's, or smoke from a structure call. I can count on three fingers how times the first on scene personnel gave a size-up that could be deemed useful by responding personal. I do not consider the common "On-scene, smoke showing, will be out investigating," a useful scene size-up. Especially if the dispatch information was for smoke from a structure. Wouldn't it be a good idea to let dispatch and incoming personnel know where the smoke is showing from (A, B, C, D sides, roof, basement, etc)?

As far as MVA's or PIAA's, scene size-ups can be VERY important. The first on-scene Chief or Officer can easily get on the radio and say, "On-scene...we have a 3 car mva w/ the occupants still inside of two vehicle, 3 walking wounded, one car overturned into ditch with all occupants out, there visible fire at this time. I will advise on extrication and additional equipment/manpower needs." This may not be a good scene size-up and may also be too wordy or lengthy. However, If I heard this while responding, I would know exactly the scene that I was responding to. Scene size-ups for MVA's and PIAA's can be given by either first on-scene FD or EMS personnel (or both). A secondary report could be given after contacting the patients that briefly describes the injuries. (Ie: "One female complaining of neck & back pain who is 9 months pregnant, two males with lacerations, one to the forehead and one to the abdomen, etc"

Has it been proven that size-ups are a waste of time or not useful?

Have first on-scene personnel become so busy that the 10 seconds needed for a "good" scene size-up no longer exist? Have new protocols been put into effect that keep these first on-scene personnel busy from the start?

Thank you to the Chief's and Officer's who consistently provide incoming personnel with detailed and useful scene size-ups!

Happy Monday!

FINALLY: This thread is not meant to bash any departments, it is simply a general observation and I feel is a thread worthy questions or topic of discussion.

Edited December 6, 2010 by PFDRes47cue

[JohnnyOV 2]

This is something we will be drilling on and attempting to enhance in our department in the near future. Our goal is to completely eliminate the "unit on location / unit on location with nothing showing" and thats it transmission.

I along with pretty much everyone else would love to hear a full size up from the first arriving unit, however, a simple size up on arrival, and a detailed size up later on, if necessary, into the incident is the most appropriate form. This clears up air time for units signing on, calling on location, and other radio transmissions important to the function of the fire ground operation and pre-arrival assignment planning. Additionally, the simple size up also gives you generally a good idea of what type of building you'll be dealing with based on the location of the alarm. I know in my district, anything off of Gambelli Dr. we'll be dealing with multi million dollar McMansions, and anything off Yorkhill Rd / Hawthorne Dr be 2 story, wood frame, split level homes. Knowing your district is key to getting a fuzzy idea of what you might be shown at the time of dispatch.

I'll use my department as an example:

On dispatch to a residential alarm:

"Engine 273 is on location, establishing command. 2 story, wood frame single dwelling. Nothing showing at this time, out investigating."

"Engine 273 to 60-Control, burnt food on the stove, all units can return."

On dispatch to a MVA:

"Rescue 16 is on location establishing command one car over turned in the southbound lane, we'll be out investigating"

"Rescue 16 on an update, we have one car overturned, 1 patient pinned in the vehicle. Extrication will be commencing at this time, have EMS stage IFO the accident scene, have Engine 270 park behind the rescue and bring their portable unit and large spreaders to the drivers side of the involved car."

"Rescue 16 One (insert gender here) patient has been extricated at this time, in care of EMS, and will be transported ALS to the Medical Center"

On dispatch to a fire:

"Engine 271 is on location establishing command, give me my 10-75 assignment, I have fire showing on the first floor of a 2 story wood frame companies going to work."

"Car 2531 to 60-control, I am on location and assuming command. I have fire in a 2 story, 50x 20, occupied single family dwelling on the first floor, AB corner. Two 1.75 L/S/O, water is being place on the fire at this time, truck companies are preforming primary searches and opening up at this time. Have EMS stage at the corner of Kensington and Wellington and walk their equipment down."

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The first two posts in this thread are great. If I had any more rep points left for the day, I'd be using them on both (but my heart got to me and I used them in the condolences thread for Chief Rush, and I think some in the Harley photo thread).

First on scene size-ups are a necessity. The first on scene report could give an incoming truck company a heads up as to how the apparatus needs to approach the structure (different street or direction). It could give an engine company information about where to pick up a hydrant. Where victims are hanging from windows. The list goes on and on.

The only defense I would offer for those that fail to give one initially is the following;

1. Understaffed apparatus rolling in, and the member/s on that rig just have too much going on in their thought process to be complete in offering info over the radio.

2. There are times when being first on the scene and observing the situation dictates to you that those few seconds might make the difference in making a grab, or getting a start on a fire before it gets beyond control. Sometimes literally ten or fifteen seconds spent on the radio might mean the difference between "another ten seconds and that lady would have jumped" or "another half a minute without water and that fire would have taken hold of the entire second floor."

You all know what I'm talking about.

If the first unit doesn't give that size-up, assume they are going to work so quickly they do not have the time to give the size-up. Therefore the command vehicle or second apparatus on scene needs to pick that up, and be sure to relay the pertinent facts asap.

Both of the first two posts here are really very good. Nice job fellas.

[kurt 5]

First on scene size ups are important to let everyone know what's going on and they can plan there attack also on that is if updates come as people are responding know what's up use my dept as example is last week we received call for brush fire on tsp and county updated asst chief and no one caught the update and calling asst chief on our private channel he didn't answer back and some people didn't know if they should respond or not respond its would be nice to know what's going on and never heard chief call on scene later found out the update was from pd saying no fire farmer putting lime down in a field

[JohnnyOV 2]

The only defense I would offer for those that fail to give one initially is the following;

1. Understaffed apparatus rolling in, and the member/s on that rig just have too much going on in their thought process to be complete in offering info over the radio.

2. There are times when being first on the scene and observing the situation dictates to you that those few seconds might make the difference in making a grab, or getting a start on a fire before it gets beyond control. Sometimes literally ten or fifteen seconds spent on the radio might mean the difference between "another ten seconds and that lady would have jumped" or "another half a minute without water and that fire would have taken hold of the entire second floor."

You all know what I'm talking about.

Thanks Capt for the honorary rep points

1. I'm not sure I'm understanding the last part of your comment, but if I'm reading it as "they are too overwhelmed with their though process to be able to present a clear and concise statement over the radio about the presenting conditions," then they have no use sitting in the front of the rig... in either seat.

2. Would you recommend in this situation of a victim presenting a jumping hazard, rather then giving a building size up, simply state "Engine X, I'm on location with victims jumping, give me my 10-75" That alone, in my eyes pretty much gives an entire summary that something major is going on.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thanks Capt for the honorary rep points

1. I'm not sure I'm understanding the last part of your comment, but if I'm reading it as "they are too overwhelmed with their though process to be able to present a clear and concise statement over the radio about the presenting conditions," then they have no use sitting in the front of the rig... in either seat.

2. Would you recommend in this situation of a victim presenting a jumping hazard, rather then giving a building size up, simply state "Engine X, I'm on location with victims jumping, give me my 10-75" That alone, in my eyes pretty much gives an entire summary that something major is going on.

Well, you are using the word "they" when referring to the first rig. What if it's "he"? As in a solo rig rolling up. This still happens all too frequently in both career/volunteer/combo systems.

In number 2, I'd say sometimes the only thing the member/s is/are going to get off on the radio is "Engine X 10-84, we got jumpers....." And yes, that would indicate to the rest of the units rolling in, something major is going down. (oh boy, just realized the pun in that).

[Dinosaur 844]

Scene size-ups have to be done and with the exception that efd points out there's no excuse for not doing them.

Dispatch should prompt people to give them. If a unit calls on but doesn't offer a size-up with the next 60 seconds, the dispatcher should ask for it. Dispatchers aren't parrots. They can use their brains a little bit too.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The first two posts in this thread are great. If I had any more rep points left for the day, I'd be using them on both (but my heart got to me and I used them in the condolences thread for Chief Rush, and I think some in the Harley photo thread).

First on scene size-ups are a necessity. The first on scene report could give an incoming truck company a heads up as to how the apparatus needs to approach the structure (different street or direction). It could give an engine company information about where to pick up a hydrant. Where victims are hanging from windows. The list goes on and on.

The only defense I would offer for those that fail to give one initially is the following;

1. Understaffed apparatus rolling in, and the member/s on that rig just have too much going on in their thought process to be complete in offering info over the radio.

2. There are times when being first on the scene and observing the situation dictates to you that those few seconds might make the difference in making a grab, or getting a start on a fire before it gets beyond control. Sometimes literally ten or fifteen seconds spent on the radio might mean the difference between "another ten seconds and that lady would have jumped" or "another half a minute without water and that fire would have taken hold of the entire second floor."

You all know what I'm talking about.

If the first unit doesn't give that size-up, assume they are going to work so quickly they do not have the time to give the size-up. Therefore the command vehicle or second apparatus on scene needs to pick that up, and be sure to relay the pertinent facts asap.

Both of the first two posts here are really very good. Nice job fellas.

Thanks Capt for the honorary rep points

1. I'm not sure I'm understanding the last part of your comment, but if I'm reading it as "they are too overwhelmed with their though process to be able to present a clear and concise statement over the radio about the presenting conditions," then they have no use sitting in the front of the rig... in either seat.

2. Would you recommend in this situation of a victim presenting a jumping hazard, rather then giving a building size up, simply state "Engine X, I'm on location with victims jumping, give me my 10-75" That alone, in my eyes pretty much gives an entire summary that something major is going on.

Well, you are using the word "they" when referring to the first rig. What if it's "he"? As in a solo rig rolling up. This still happens all too frequently in both career/volunteer/combo systems.

In number 2, I'd say sometimes the only thing the member/s is/are going to get off on the radio is "Engine X 10-84, we got jumpers....." And yes, that would indicate to the rest of the units rolling in, something major is going down. (oh boy, just realized the pun in that).

As far as a rig rolling up with a single person aboard (paid or volunteer), yes this does happen to frequently. However, this person can still do stuff and provide a decent scene size-up. For example, the FD that I ride with while up at school is volunteer with 4 paid drivers. One driver is working at all times. When a village call comes in (different protocol for town calls...), the paid driver rolls the rig by himself (unless someone else happens to be at the station) right when the call comes in. When the driver gets on scene, whether it is a working fire, school alarm, residential alarm, CO alarm, MVA, etc they give a size-up. When we have fires in the village, the paid driver will give a size-up upon arrival, and then hit a hydrant and stretch a primary and back up line while members respond to the scene or to get another engine, rescue, or ladder. This shows that is is possible to do things when the situation calls for it and still provide a size-up. One reason why these size-ups are important is because Chief's (and members) hear this and then Chief's can call for 2nd or 3rd assignments prior to arriving on scene.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

As far as a rig rolling up with a single person aboard (paid or volunteer), yes this does happen to frequently. However, this person can still do stuff and provide a decent scene size-up. For example, the FD that I ride with while up at school is volunteer with 4 paid drivers. One driver is working at all times. When a village call comes in (different protocol for town calls...), the paid driver rolls the rig by himself (unless someone else happens to be at the station) right when the call comes in. When the driver gets on scene, whether it is a working fire, school alarm, residential alarm, CO alarm, MVA, etc they give a size-up. When we have fires in the village, the paid driver will give a size-up upon arrival, and then hit a hydrant and stretch a primary and back up line while members respond to the scene or to get another engine, rescue, or ladder. This shows that is is possible to do things when the situation calls for it and still provide a size-up. One reason why these size-ups are important is because Chief's (and members) hear this and then Chief's can call for 2nd or 3rd assignments prior to arriving on scene.

You guys are all right. I was just picking out a couple of things and saying the possibility of an "incomplete size-up" does still exist. But really it's all just semantics. I agree with your posts, and don't have any argument against them. Was just trying to point out the possibility of the "what-ifs" but it's a weak argument I'm making here, so I'm dropping it, and going with your original thoughts and statements "Scene size-up by the first unit is an absolute neccesity, and should be done at all times."

The end.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

You guys are all right. I was just picking out a couple of things and saying the possibility of an "incomplete size-up" does still exist. But really it's all just semantics. I agree with your posts, and don't have any argument against them. Was just trying to point out the possibility of the "what-ifs" but it's a weak argument I'm making here, so I'm dropping it, and going with your original thoughts and statements "Scene size-up by the first unit is an absolute neccesity, and should be done at all times."

The end.

Sorry Capt... I was not trying to argue your point or be disrespectful. I was just saying it is possible...I am aware that every situation and incident is very different and each one presents its own problems. So of course, there are times when it is best to delay the size-up or give a brief incomplete one. I'm just speaking as if the situation allows the opportunity. In other words, it is unacceptable for a Chief or Officer to roll up on scene, and not give a size-up because he had a hot coffee to finish or needs to check EMTBravo on his/her phone.

Edited December 6, 2010 by PFDRes47cue

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Sorry Capt... I was not trying to argue your point or be disrespectful. I was just saying it is possible...I am aware that every situation and incident is very different and each one presents its own problems. So of course, there are times when it is best to delay the size-up or give a brief incomplete one. I'm just speaking as if the situation allows the opportunity. In other words, it is unacceptable for a Chief or Officer to roll up on scene, and not give a size-up because he had a hot coffee to finish or needs to check EMTBravo on his/her phone.

LOL@the chief's coffee & emtbravo check

[TimesUp 148]

If done correctly a report from the first due is a great help. Then there's the " Eng, xx 10-84 nothing showing" only to followed up 4 minutes later by" Eng.xx to dispatch heavy smoke on the 6th floor". If you can and there is some important information that will help incoming companys then it should be relayed. This goes for special instructions as well. I've seen it when relaying a lot of ordinary information leads to confusion and only ties up the radio. Giving special instructions for things that are automatically done anyway is one thing I would say is ordinary. You might have a different idea of ordinary. Or this might not happen where you work. S.O.P's come into play when relaying "special instructions"

[jack10562 414]

We're gonna release a new APP for your smart-phones to instantly upload your IA to EMTBravo,

You all should be able to post within seconds of arrival on scene. It will accept incident photos, too !!!

But wait, There's more!!!! No more calling in "on Location" to your dispatch, they'll see the IA and know you're there!

(umm, yeah,,,right)

[Remember585 815]

Great topic!

In addition to the lack of initial size-ups, there's been a drought when it comes to progress reports as well. One incident I listened to recenty, the FD was on scene for roughly one hour, and I never heard anything. As a dispatcher, we like to know what's happening, and the info that the IC can relay can be entered into your event's comments in case you ever need to refer to them on a report.

As a Chief, I try to give a brief report on arrival, and provide updates as necessary. Last week, while waiting for several hours for a certain utility company to show up to an incident, I made requests every 20-30 minutes to have on record for the whereabouts of this utility. The 60 Control dispatchers were good about entering this info which came in handy when I completed the report.

I've also been a big fan of the size-ups and progress reports so your responding members know what's going on, whether they need to go to the scene or crew a rig, etc.

Hopefully this discussion prompts some more Incident Commanders to speak up and let people know what's going on.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Great topic!

In addition to the lack of initial size-ups, there's been a drought when it comes to progress reports as well. One incident I listened to recenty, the FD was on scene for roughly one hour, and I never heard anything. As a dispatcher, we like to know what's happening, and the info that the IC can relay can be entered into your event's comments in case you ever need to refer to them on a report.

John, you bring up a very important point and perfect expansion of the topic. As most of us are aware, in the FDNY, the IC is required to provide the dispatch center with regular progress reports. It's not uncommon to hear the city dispatcher calling the IC, or in many cases on multi-alarm incidents the MCP stating, " a progress report is due."

This is extremely important. The disptacher reminds the IC or MCP of the duration of the incident or fire. We all know how important this information is with regard to an interior attack, and how long structural components can reasonably be expected to last. In other words, the longer the duration, and with the regular updates being called for and required, it's a constant reminder to the IC as to how long the troops have been operating interior, and serves as a reminder as to when the "safe point" is passing for keeping the members within the structure, or gauging the time they should be pulled out, and exterior operations commenced.

I see absolutely no reason why 60-Control cannot enact a system and require Incident Commanders to provide those progress reports, and Control can be providing the IC with those regular reminders as to the length of time members have been inside, and length of uncontrolled burn time.

This is an item that 60-Control can be pro-active with. they can make it their policy that "this is the way it's going to be." That would require every department using 60-Control for dispatch to get on board. There shouldn't be an IC in the County that would be against a pro-active movement by the dispatch center that's going to send them 10 minute reminders for how long that fire is burning; and in ordinary and frame construction if that fire is burning out of control for more than 20 minutes, those firefighters should be getting pulled out. A smart IC would welcome this additional help from 60-Control.

[PEMO3 523]

Capt you are 100% correct. Initial size up and timely progress reports are paramount to a successful operation. They do multiple things. First they keep your units abreast of what is going on at the incident and the potential for escalation (or de-escalation). Secondly, they allow for the timely detail of the incident to be memorialized by your dispatch center. Third, they prompt the I/C to think through the incident and not create a tunnel vision effect as a proper size up encompasses the incident, exposures, need for addition resources, etc. These initial size up and progress reports can and should be used by both EMS and FD to keep dispatchers, incoming units and other resources aware of the status of your incident.

Edited December 7, 2010 by PEMO3

[mllax14 18]

Two pretty good articles about size ups and calm communications on the fire ground.

My link

My link

[16fire5 693]

John, you bring up a very important point and perfect expansion of the topic. As most of us are aware, in the FDNY, the IC is required to provide the dispatch center with regular progress reports. It's not uncommon to hear the city dispatcher calling the IC, or in many cases on multi-alarm incidents the MCP stating, " a progress report is due."

This is extremely important. The disptacher reminds the IC or MCP of the duration of the incident or fire. We all know how important this information is with regard to an interior attack, and how long structural components can reasonably be expected to last. In other words, the longer the duration, and with the regular updates being called for and required, it's a constant reminder to the IC as to how long the troops have been operating interior, and serves as a reminder as to when the "safe point" is passing for keeping the members within the structure, or gauging the time they should be pulled out, and exterior operations commenced.

I see absolutely no reason why 60-Control cannot enact a system and require Incident Commanders to provide those progress reports, and Control can be providing the IC with those regular reminders as to the length of time members have been inside, and length of uncontrolled burn time.

This is an item that 60-Control can be pro-active with. they can make it their policy that "this is the way it's going to be." That would require every department using 60-Control for dispatch to get on board. There shouldn't be an IC in the County that would be against a pro-active movement by the dispatch center that's going to send them 10 minute reminders for how long that fire is burning; and in ordinary and frame construction if that fire is burning out of control for more than 20 minutes, those firefighters should be getting pulled out. A smart IC would welcome this additional help from 60-Control.

Just a little background on the progress reports. They are for the staff monitoring the box and they do listen. The only part for the dispatcher is the status Doubtful, PWH, UC. That's why once the chief of department is on scene progress reports are no required anymore. My only thought on this is why require the IC to give a progress report to the county dispatcher when the dispatcher has no power to do anything with the info? See the FDNY dispatcher performs the reloacations based on the fire status. 60 control can't relocate companies without request/permission correct?

Don't get me wrong I'm not against size-up or progress reports but I think they should have meaning or a reason. If it's a single unit response no progress report is required. I also agree with the shorter the better. For instance if the chief of your volunteer department is first on scene why should he announce that he's command? Everyone should know this. Again progress reports are good but we're not doing them for the scanner buffs or the press.

[PEMO3 523]

For instance if the chief of your volunteer department is first on scene why should he announce that he's command? Everyone should know this. Again progress reports are good but we're not doing them for the scanner buffs or the press.

You are 100% correct about 60 Control waiting for the IC to make the call on back fills, relocations, mutual aid units, etc but progress reports do a lot more than provide info for "scanner buffs" and the media in this type of environment. Progress reports allow surrounding departments to have a heads up on a job heading south so they can prepare especially if they are regularly 2nd or 3rd due for a particular district or call type. It allows 60 Control the ability to have a clear picture of what is going on in the field beyond the initial call, remember it is a partnership out there, you rely on them for info and they rely on you for the same.

As far as announcing who is in command, many departments have more than one chief and they sometimes respond together to calls. While logic would say the senior chief (xxx1) is the IC he/she may decide that this is the perfect job to let an assistant (xxx2 or 3) get their feet wet and be IC while they step back and are there to assist as needed.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Just a little background on the progress reports. They are for the staff monitoring the box and they do listen. The only part for the dispatcher is the status Doubtful, PWH, UC. That's why once the chief of department is on scene progress reports are no required anymore. My only thought on this is why require the IC to give a progress report to the county dispatcher when the dispatcher has no power to do anything with the info? See the FDNY dispatcher performs the reloacations based on the fire status. 60 control can't relocate companies without request/permission correct?

Don't get me wrong I'm not against size-up or progress reports but I think they should have meaning or a reason. If it's a single unit response no progress report is required. I also agree with the shorter the better. For instance if the chief of your volunteer department is first on scene why should he announce that he's command? Everyone should know this. Again progress reports are good but we're not doing them for the scanner buffs or the press.

Hey you got promoted? Congrats Brother.

I think the most important reminder the dispatcher can give IC's in Westchester, is fire duration reminders. Okay, they're for your staff chief's to listen too. But in many of the smaller less manned departments in Westchester, be they career or volunteer, the IC frequently, by necessity, ends up with more than his hands full. The fire duration reminder is in fact what I consider to be the most important information coming from dispatch to an IC. As Joe pointed out, the fact that the county is all divided up into different departments, that may be needed, they'd like to have a heads up, and Control as well, as to what the progress is. The lack of uniformity in the outer Counties surrounding NYC is truly antiquated.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We have found that unless the IC announces he/she is the IC, the dispatcher will call the highest ranking officer they've heard on the air. With the establishment of a "named command" on the radio, the dispatcher reverts to calling "command" vs. unit numbers. This allows the COD or other officers to pass command or not take command with no confusion.

Of course as we should all know, not taking command or passing it to a junior officer does not absolve you of responsibility. This is one of the issues I take with the outcome of the Lairdsville training fatalities, in that senior officers at the incident who should have known better and taken responsibility were not held to the higher standard that should apply. But that's a totally different argument for another day.

As for size-up, our FD requires them for anything short of medical calls (which do get "progress reports"). We have taken the construction type out, in favor of a more concise, corrected location, relative occupancy size and type, visible conditions, needs and establishment of command type initial report. We found that using some common sense also was in order. Now, instead of a "large non-combustible mercantile occupancy" we just say "Home Depot".

[wraftery 1,275]

We should differentiate between an on arrival report and a size-up.

On Arrival Report= a brief description of "Watcha Got"

Size-up= A full assessment of the situation (not a radio broadcast) used to formulate your Incident Action Plan. She Was A Tall Cow.

And progress reports should be required by all Chiefs of Dept. They not only inform the Chief, but they give a heads up to

the next-up companies should the situation escalate.

They also remind the IC of how long he's been there, and forces him to evaluata his plan, his progress, or lack thereof

[antiquefirelt 994]

We should differentiate between an on arrival report and a size-up.

On Arrival Report= a brief description of "Watcha Got"

Size-up= A full assessment of the situation (not a radio broadcast) used to formulate your Incident Action Plan. She Was A Tall Cow.

And progress reports should be required by all Chiefs of Dept. They not only inform the Chief, but they give a heads up to

the next-up companies should the situation escalate.

They also remind the IC of how long he's been there, and forces him to evaluata his plan, his progress, or lack thereof

Can't disagree anywhere except to note that the implication of this thread was that the missing size-up was more of an initial report. It's awful hard to determine the arriving personnel have not done a size-up to formulate a plan.

[wraftery 1,275]

Can't disagree anywhere except to note that the implication of this thread was that the missing size-up was more of an initial report. It's awful hard to determine the arriving personnel have not done a size-up to formulate a plan.

I know,but threads tend to change directions 10 times. They rarely end up on the subject they started on, so I just threw this out there.

[JM15 386]

Don't get me wrong I'm not against size-up or progress reports but I think they should have meaning or a reason. If it's a single unit response no progress report is required. I also agree with the shorter the better. For instance if the chief of your volunteer department is first on scene why should he announce that he's command? Everyone should know this. Again progress reports are good but we're not doing them for the scanner buffs or the press.

Even if no one is listening I feel that they do serve a purpose. It is a chance to re-evaluate the overall plan and tactics for mitigation. 45 Minutes into a fire in a two story single family dwelling and you don't have a handle on the fire makes you think about additional resources or how you can change the tactics to be more effective.

[firemoose827 324]

In my area, mostly rural, initial size-ups and progress reports should be a must. There are too many incidents that have some departments responding from long distances and could take 10 to 15 minutes to arrive on scene in this rural area. Progress reports could advise them to "Dial down" the response to avoid careless accidents in bad weather. They can also help the responding firefighters prepare, both mentally and physically for what they may need to do once they arrive.

I for one never liked to be riding on the engine or rescue to a mutual aid call and not know what is going on because there is just no reports at all, and no size-up. Id like to know what Im grabbing when I get off the rig, what tools, fans, salvage covers, saw, ladders...what do they need us to do????

The other big problem is arriving on scene and having no clue who the IC is and what they want you to do because there is no clear designation and there are white and red hats running all around the scene...but thats another topic all together!

I myself will be giving clear and concise scene size-ups and progress reports until the incident is under control.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In my area, mostly rural, initial size-ups and progress reports should be a must. There are too many incidents that have some departments responding from long distances and could take 10 to 15 minutes to arrive on scene in this rural area. Progress reports could advise them to "Dial down" the response to avoid careless accidents in bad weather. They can also help the responding firefighters prepare, both mentally and physically for what they may need to do once they arrive.

I don't think the rural, suburban or urban really should make a difference, as the benefits of an initial conditions report can be realized in any setting. What I hate hearing is the Holy Shiite! tell them to expedite calls on the radio! We get these from M/A FD's, EMS unit and PD a few times a year, and the response I give is always, "We're already travelling as fast as is safely possible". Point being as much as the initial report can help slow units down, the screaming banshee chief's tend to send many into adrenaline overload, and who can blame them when their chief is setting that example.

Progress reports really depend on what you're looking to get out of them. We likes them to document certain benchmarks, but given the small size of our FD, they serve little purpose otherwise as if the incident is much as all (working fire) a full recall has happened and crews are listening to the tactical frequency. On the other hand, requiring the progress reports does force the IC to review benchmarks and to put an actual time frame on the operation. I know firsthand how fast time goes by at a working fire, I'm often amazed out how much time has passed when we're cleaning up and some says the time.

[firemoose827 324]

I don't think the rural, suburban or urban really should make a difference, as the benefits of an initial conditions report can be realized in any setting. What I hate hearing is the Holy Shiite! tell them to expedite calls on the radio! We get these from M/A FD's, EMS unit and PD a few times a year, and the response I give is always, "We're already travelling as fast as is safely possible". Point being as much as the initial report can help slow units down, the screaming banshee chief's tend to send many into adrenaline overload, and who can blame them when their chief is setting that example.

Progress reports really depend on what you're looking to get out of them. We likes them to document certain benchmarks, but given the small size of our FD, they serve little purpose otherwise as if the incident is much as all (working fire) a full recall has happened and crews are listening to the tactical frequency. On the other hand, requiring the progress reports does force the IC to review benchmarks and to put an actual time frame on the operation. I know firsthand how fast time goes by at a working fire, I'm often amazed out how much time has passed when we're cleaning up and some says the time.

Thats one of my favorites as well, like they expect an extra nitro boost from the engine if they say "Expedite" or there will be a sudden change in traffic patterns that allow units to respond faster. But you still hear it all the time, lol.

What I meant to say by using the "Rural" reference, and anyone who responds in a rural setting will agree with me, it takes a longer time to get members from home to station, than station to scene with response times of up to 15-20 minutes total from home to scene. Im lucky enough to live only 30 seconds from our station and usualy am the first one there. But there are some that live 4-5 minutes away from station. We have one dept in our county that covers multiple small hamlets and towns with response times of up to 20 minutes from their station. Mostly farms and large properties, but if we get a large barn fire in one of these areas it could take the first engine 15-20 minutes to get on scene let alone get water on the fire. But yet hardly a handful of the officers use size-up reports at all, they call on scene and you hear nothing else from them. It makes you wonder sometimes if there is even any officer on scene at all. Good points though, it realy shouldnt matter if its rural or urban, there should always be ongoing sizeups and progress reports given.

[antiquefirelt 994]

What I meant to say by using the "Rural" reference, and anyone who responds in a rural setting will agree with me, it takes a longer time to get members from home to station, than station to scene with response times of up to 15-20 minutes total from home to scene.

I understand the rural issue as our combo FD is still in a fairly rural area in the grand scheme of the U.S. We have outlying areas that the response time is over 12 minutes for the staffed apparatus, where the local M/A VFD responds and arrives first due for us. Our personnel are all subject to recall and due to woefully inadequate staffing, all first alarms require off duty personnel and call members respond from anywhere. My response time from home is 14 minutes (soon to be 7!). My point was just as you noted again, regardless of geography, we can all benefit from more information before arrival as opposed too less.

[wraftery 1,275]

You may like Nitrous Oxide to make your car go fast.

It's just Laughing Gas to me.