Briarcliff Auto Body Shop Fire 11-25-10 Discussion Thread

[TL2L31 8]

If anyone has first hand info on this fire please PM me, Thanks.

[x635 4,066]

My question is for someone in the know, was this building written off due to the intensity of the fire on arrival? Auto Body shops can be dangerous just beyond the chemicals stored there, which run off could create another hazard. Was protecting the exposure the priortity, was foam use, or was the decision made the it was safe enough to make an offensive?

[ENG47INE 17]

My question is for someone in the know, was this building written off due to the intensity of the fire on arrival? Auto Body shops can be dangerous just beyond the chemicals stored there, which run off could create another hazard. Was protecting the exposure the priortity, was foam use, or was the decision made the it was safe enough to make an offensive?

From what it sounded like to me they went defensive right away i could be wrong tho but they had heavy fire through out the building and thru the roof on arrival,

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I can only comment on what I know and saw, .... E119 was out the door pretty quick ( FAST team ) and when I reach Route 9 south bound and as we crossed over the Croton Point Avenue overpass, myself and 2082 could see a large cloud of black smoke off in the distance, so it was burning pretty hot by then...

[MoFire390 118]

being this was a commerical structure with unknow type chemicals inside was b'cliff using foam to help with fire suppression?

[Bnechis 3,961]

being this was a commerical structure with unknow type chemicals inside was b'cliff using foam to help with fire suppression?

What type of foam are you suggesting? A or B

And why is it an unknown type of chemicals?

Doesnt each department know what is used in there district? The law requires that the property owner informs them annually.

Note: The above statement is generic, based on the question, not on the local dept.

[SteveOFD 176]

being this was a commerical structure with unknow type chemicals inside was b'cliff using foam to help with fire suppression?

We (OFD E99) supplied a handline supplying F 500 foam for overhaul. From what I saw after we arrived, there was not much remaining of the building with most of the roof and attic already burned through.

[TL2L31 8]

Thanks to all for the info. My questions were also answered with the pics psoted.

[MoFire390 118]

What type of foam are you suggesting? A or B

And why is it an unknown type of chemicals?

Doesnt each department know what is used in there district? The law requires that the property owner informs them annually.

Note: The above statement is generic, based on the question, not on the local dept.

do you know every chemical that is in the auto body shops in your response area??? how do u know that some of these chemicals dont have a reaction with water?? i dont know any chemicals that are in any body shops in my district. im sure the last thing on a small busniess owners mind is telling someone what chemicals he/she has in their shop. and i was only asking i know a few departments have switched from using straight water to adding foam to the tank to help with the supression efforts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

do you know every chemical that is in the auto body shops in your response area???

While no one can ever be 100%, I beleive we have a very good handle on it. Since we have been agressivly enforcing the code we have only found very small amounts of chemicals that were not in our records, on the 209u or in the permit application. The amount of material that is unknown is less than what is found in almost every residential property (which the fire service has no control over).

how do u know that some of these chemicals dont have a reaction with water??

The know chemicals (by inspection, permit or 209-u) are listed by classification under CIDS and are on our mobile data terminals. Unknown chemicals are always a concern, but it apears to me that if you are not agressivly enforcing the code and determining what is out in your response area then doesnt every call have the potential for this? How is everyone else handling it......throw water at it and find out? because if its not pre identified or placarded (and only products in transite commonly are placarded) it is unknown.

i dont know any chemicals that are in any body shops in my district.

Why not?

This is a major issue that must be addressed!!!!!!

What about the other commercial occupancies?

If you do not know whats in your district you are responding blind and gambling the lives of your responders and the public.

Why does the dept do with the 209-u forms that are sent in? Does anyone in your district enforce the laws? If no one is doing it, then I'd bet there are many locations with chemicals that they should not have or they are being handled incorrectly.

im sure the last thing on a small busniess owners mind is telling someone what chemicals he/she has in their shop.

I'm sure it is, but we have had 100% compliance. Maybe thats because when they fail to comply with NYS law they are advised that they get to see the judge, he can fine them or close them down. Also when they find out that if they read their insurance policy they may find that they have no coverage if they fail to meet code.

and i was only asking i know a few departments have switched from using straight water to adding foam to the tank to help with the supression efforts.

The reason I asked was I have seen depts use class A foam, which has some advantages. I have also seen depts use class B, because of "chemicals" in most cases this is a complete waste of time and money ($125/bucket) within a structure.

[MoFire390 118]

While no one can ever be 100%, I beleive we have a very good handle on it. Since we have been agressivly enforcing the code we have only found very small amounts of chemicals that were not in our records, on the 209u or in the permit application. The amount of material that is unknown is less than what is found in almost every residential property (which the fire service has no control over).

The know chemicals (by inspection, permit or 209-u) are listed by classification under CIDS and are on our mobile data terminals. Unknown chemicals are always a concern, but it apears to me that if you are not agressivly enforcing the code and determining what is out in your response area then doesnt every call have the potential for this? How is everyone else handling it......throw water at it and find out? because if its not pre identified or placarded (and only products in transite commonly are placarded) it is unknown.

Why not?

This is a major issue that must be addressed!!!!!!

What about the other commercial occupancies?

If you do not know whats in your district you are responding blind and gambling the lives of your responders and the public.

Why does the dept do with the 209-u forms that are sent in? Does anyone in your district enforce the laws? If no one is doing it, then I'd bet there are many locations with chemicals that they should not have or they are being handled incorrectly.

I'm sure it is, but we have had 100% compliance. Maybe thats because when they fail to comply with NYS law they are advised that they get to see the judge, he can fine them or close them down. Also when they find out that if they read their insurance policy they may find that they have no coverage if they fail to meet code.

The reason I asked was I have seen depts use class A foam, which has some advantages. I have also seen depts use class B, because of "chemicals" in most cases this is a complete waste of time and money ($125/bucket) within a structure.

all i did was ask a simple quesiton. but as always curiosity killed the cat

[Bnechis 3,961]

all i did was ask a simple quesiton. but as always curiosity killed the cat

and lack of curiosity and knowledge kills fire fighters.

The building and its contents are the enemy

[MoFire390 118]

We (OFD E99) supplied a handline supplying F 500 foam for overhaul. From what I saw after we arrived, there was not much remaining of the building with most of the roof and attic already burned through.

thank you steveofd.

[ny10570 745]

MoFire, don't get defensive. The good Captain is spot on. Even if you don't know the actual chemicals the business stores at the very least you need to familiarize yourself with what they claim to store and what are the common chemicals used in that industry. People lie when they have a reason to. They're usually very open when an agency just wants a list of what hey have on premiss unless they're doing something illicit.

[JM15 386]

I wonder if the Meth lab across town sent in it's 209-u?

[MoFire390 118]

MoFire, don't get defensive. The good Captain is spot on. Even if you don't know the actual chemicals the business stores at the very least you need to familiarize yourself with what they claim to store and what are the common chemicals used in that industry. People lie when they have a reason to. They're usually very open when an agency just wants a list of what hey have on premiss unless they're doing something illicit.

my education of the fire distict that i serve is not what was being asked.....what was being asked was a very simple question for people who were on scene.... could of gone with out someone being a kill joy and ruining the topic part of the reason WHY i STOPPED asking quesitons on this website

[Guest ff101]

I gotta agree mo. While it is important to know what's in your district, you asked a simple question.

Edited November 28, 2010 by ff101

[Bnechis 3,961]

I wonder if the Meth lab across town sent in it's 209-u?

Funny. While a criminal operation is not going to tell local government what its doing. Both the US DEA and the NYS OFPC runs courses that teaches what chemicals and proceses are used and if the members are at the hazmat tech level, they evaluate the chemical properties.

We held this class inhouse this April so our members know what to look for and how we should respond to these locations.

Last month we held a series of drills with NRPD. They set up a scenario with a home lab (this one was for WMD but its basicly the same process). PD & FD worked together to suit up (level A) and investigate what hazards exist. FD members got the opertunity to "walk thru" the crime scene and learn what they should be aware of.

I do not dare to ask what others are doing to prepare, since its pretty clear that we are not interested in protecting ourselves from what should be know hazards in "legal" operations in our own communities.

[Bnechis 3,961]

my education of the fire distict that i serve is not what was being asked.....

Your right I did not ask about your fire district, I 1st asked why and what type of foam would be used. In my experience 90% of firefighters either use foam improperly or dont understand why they are using foam. You answered my question by stating you did not know what chemicals are found in YOUR fire district.

My 2nd question was a general question about how fire fighters gather information about hazards in there district.

what was being asked was a very simple question for people who were on scene.... could of gone with out someone being a kill joy and ruining the topic part of the reason WHY i STOPPED asking quesitons on this website

Yes and I also asked a very simple question for all firefighters.

If you thought my questions was an attack on your department, then you could have simply not answered me. Since I do not know which dept you are with and you did respond that your dept. cant answer the question than I guess party time is over and you and your dept needs to get back to work. I sorry you feel I'm a kill joy and I've ruined the topic for you. My intent is to get others to consider this issue and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. To many firefighters have died or been injured because they do not have information available to them.

There are many "hard" questions that need to be asked in the fire service. This one fire should open the door to asking "how are we doing" and "can we do it better"?

I'm sorry that you feel you are the only one with the RIGHT to ask a question on here. Since you can not answer my general question, then maybe you need to think a little longer about what questions are important in the fire service.

If you can not take the heat (of a simple question) get out of the fire.

Thank you.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I gotta agree mo. While it is important to know what's in your district, you asked a simple question.

being this was a commerical structure with unknow type chemicals inside was b'cliff using foam to help with fire suppression?

do you know every chemical that is in the auto body shops in your response area???

how do u know that some of these chemicals dont have a reaction with water??

By my count it was 3 questions, which were simple for me, but it appears more difficult for others.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think the discussion about what FD's can do to protect themselves and the requirements for reporting hazardous materials in their business is relevant and useful and entirely appropriate for this site.

To call someone a "kill joy" for intelligently discussing the fire service is contrary to the purpose of this forum and an unnecessary attack on someone who has taken the time to contribute. If you don't want to engage in a discussion, don't ask questions. I don't understand why we're killing the proverbial messenger here.

[irishfire2491 24]

If you can not take the heat (of a simple question) get out of the fire.

Thank you.

Mofire I dont think Captain Benchis was trying to bash you or your department in anyway, Every job is a learning experience weather you are there in person or not, Instead of fight against what you believe that it from someone who has experience in the field for many years and as an instructor, Which I have learned alot from and take that information and put it in your back pocket for later useage incase you come in contact with an autobody shop fire. Mofire you are getting heated over a question on EMTBRAVO are you serious what would you do if you were the classroom setting, in the classroom it is alright not to know the answer and say you dont, but no in the field! Take it from someone with experience and learn from them and not fight with the experence.

[wraftery 1,275]

Mofire I dont think Captain Benchis was trying to bash you or your department in anyway, Every job is a learning experience weather you are there in person or not, Instead of fight against what you believe that it from someone who has experience in the field for many years and as an instructor, Which I have learned alot from and take that information and put it in your back pocket for later useage incase you come in contact with an autobody shop fire. Mofire you are getting heated over a question on EMTBRAVO are you serious what would you do if you were the classroom setting, in the classroom it is alright not to know the answer and say you dont, but no in the field! Take it from someone with experience and learn from them and not fight with the experence.

Sorry for jumping in so late in the discussion. but irish fire is right. I was on the job for 34 years and went to schools,seminars, etc. right up to the time I retired. Some of us go to these classes just to get certificates and unfortunately forget the course material in a week or two. On the other hand, you could have irishfire's attitude: Learn it from those who have been there> remember it> and put it in your back pocket because you might need it some time in the future when you least expect it. It should also come out of that back pocket every now and then for a review. Irishfire, Tommy Brennan would be proud of you.

And Barry: Mofire is young. Don't jump on him when he asks a question. All your information is absolutely correct, but as soon as you jumped on his case, you turned him off.

Cids (or whatever you may call buildings' info database) is a very time consuming effort and takes a lot of work by all members of a FD to initiate and then to keep current. Not a knock, but it is something that volunteer FDs just don't have the time or people to devote.

Everyone, paid or vol should find time to do company inspections, at least of your area's target hazards if nothing else. Wouldn't it be nice if your first time in a building is during a company inspection as opposed to 3an on your hands and knees?

And about that back pocket irishfire talked about...It's like a magic pocket. No matter how much "stuff" you put in it, it never gets full.

There...you got my two cents. Take it to heart and it may be worth a lot more to you

[ex-commish 490]

and lack of curiosity and knowledge kills fire fighters.

The building and its contents are the enemy

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DaRock98 76]

Does anyone know what was determined to be the cause of this fire?