ISO Rating And Apparatus

[Bnechis 3,961]

Not many depts. in Westchester have spare rigs....

Thats because we have too many depts covering a single engine company size district with 3-4 engines. ISO requires spare engines and trucks, but we cant afford them, which is ironnic because we have about 100 rigs more than needed to max out the points

Edited November 22, 2010 by x635
Split From Larchmont Spare Engine Thread

[INIT915 1,119]

Thats because we have too many depts covering a single engine company size district with 3-4 engines. ISO requires spare engines and trucks, but we cant afford them, which is ironnic because we have about 100 rigs more than needed to max out the points

BNechis, while I completely agree with your point, unreservedly, I wonder does ISO take into account this scenario:

An agency has 3-4 "active", "front-line" engines and no spares, while, it would be required to have maybe 2-3 engines and 1 spare?

I mean in reality, either way you have a total of 4 engines, no? Have ISO ever addressed this?

This is obviously no defense to not have a spare, but third-grade math, tells us either way, we are ending up with 4 engines.

[mfc2257 464]

BNechis, while I completely agree with your point, unreservedly, I wonder does ISO take into account this scenario:

An agency has 3-4 "active", "front-line" engines and no spares, while, it would be required to have maybe 2-3 engines and 1 spare?

I mean in reality, either way you have a total of 4 engines, no? Have ISO ever addressed this?

This is obviously no defense to not have a spare, but third-grade math, tells us either way, we are ending up with 4 engines.

The NY metro area and Westchester in particular in one of the most excessively supplied area with regard to apparatus. Just about any department in Westchester north of White Plains (with maybe the exception of North White Plains, Pocantico, and Archville) has more apparatus then they know what to do with. Several engines, a quint, and engine-tanker sit in many districts. On any given fire very few apparatus are actually used. They bring one or two members to the job and sit idle for hours.

As usual I don't like to pick on other departments because I know people get their panties in a wad, so I'll single out my old department....

With two Class A pumpers, a Class A Pumper Tanker, a Quint, and a 750gpm Mini Attack with 1000ft of ldh and enough discharges to flow well over 1000gpm with a good supply, there is no reason why Millwood couldn't strip a pumper of any essential equipment (hurst tools, TIC, etc) and loan it out. They would still be left with four front line pumping apparatus and a heavy squad...... Plus the obvious mutual aid that is going to called regardless.

I've been active with several non-NY area departments that borrow/lend apparatus several times a year. It's not like it's your family minivan.... It's a firetruck, it's insured, so is the department borrowing it.....

Edited November 21, 2010 by mfc2257

[Bnechis 3,961]

BNechis, while I completely agree with your point, unreservedly, I wonder does ISO take into account this scenario:

An agency has 3-4 "active", "front-line" engines and no spares, while, it would be required to have maybe 2-3 engines and 1 spare? I mean in reality, either way you have a total of 4 engines, no? Have ISO ever addressed this? This is obviously no defense to not have a spare, but third-grade math, tells us either way, we are ending up with 4 engines.

They have, They list the number of apparatus needed for a community (based on pump capacity) in most cases its 3 engines (plus a spare). Now where it gets interesting is if you have 3 depts., who each cover 3 square miles from 1 station, and a pump capacity need of 3,500gpm they each need 3 engines & a spare or 12 engines. If the 3 depts merge they will still need 3 engines to cover the pump capacity and 1 spare. So the same rating for engines is given to the one dept with 4 engines as the 3 departments with 12 engines. At the current cost of fully equipped engines at about $750,000 thats a savings of $6 million in rolling stock, plus reduction in fuel, maintenance, insurance and the space needed to house them.

Now lets look at ladder companies in the same 3 departments. Depending on the size (hight &/or needed fire flow) of the buildings in each of the 3 districts will determine if they need a ladder company or a "service" company (ISO will credit a properly equipped rescue as a service company when an ariel ladder is not needed). Each of the 3 depts needs either a ladder or a service company and each also needs a spare ladder or a service company. Since almost every dept in Westchester has a ladder, thats 6 ladder companies (most also own a rescue) needed. Now most depts do not own a spare ladder, so they have too many engines and not enough trucks. The ISO requirement for this community is 1 ladder and 1 spare a savings of 4 equipped ladders or a savings of about $4 million plus the other savings.

Why are taxes so high in Westchester compared to other parts of the country? The above example shows how we over spend in the fire service, think of how we do the same in schools and other services.

[1075thebox 1]

So if a Department has 1 Ladder and 1 Rescue (properly outfitted) than they meet that expectation of ISO, right?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Could a properly equipped Rescue-Engine or Quint be counted as a ladder and engine spare for ISO.

Edited November 21, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Bnechis 3,961]

So if a Department has 1 Ladder and 1 Rescue (properly outfitted) than they meet that expectation of ISO, right?

Only if they are not required to have a ladder.

If required to have a ladder (any combo of: 5 or more buildings 5 stories tall &/or requiring 3,500gpm fire flow) then you also need a spare. For larger depts, you need atleast 1 spare for every 7 units (of a type).

So if the ladder is required the rescue may count partually as a spare. You will lose about 50% for not having the arial and loss more points if you dont carry a full compliment of ground ladders (I've never seen a rescue that even carrys 1/2 of whats required).

[Bnechis 3,961]

Could a properly equipped Rescue-Engine or Quint be counted as a ladder and engine spare for ISO.

Not likely.

A properly equipped quint gets counted as either an engine and 1/2 a truck or a truck and 1/2 an engine (dept tells inspector which). I have yet to see a quint that can carry all of the equipment required to be "properly equipped". Either its short of hose, short of ladders or both (and always short of all the other little items). The rescue engine, generally does even worst.

Adding a quint to you fleet may help your rating (i.e replacing 2 ladders with 2 quints = 2 ladders + 1 engine [each is 1/2 ). But replacing and engine and a truck with one (to "save" money) hurts your rating. I watched one dept convince the "board" that merging the engine & ladder with a new quint would save $500,000. There ISO rate changed and it will now cost the property owners about $7,000,000 in increase premiums (over 12 years) to save $500,000.

[BFD1054 1,552]

They have, They list the number of apparatus needed for a community (based on pump capacity) in most cases its 3 engines (plus a spare). Now where it gets interesting is if you have 3 depts., who each cover 3 square miles from 1 station, and a pump capacity need of 3,500gpm they each need 3 engines & a spare or 12 engines. If the 3 depts merge they will still need 3 engines to cover the pump capacity and 1 spare. So the same rating for engines is given to the one dept with 4 engines as the 3 departments with 12 engines. At the current cost of fully equipped engines at about $750,000 thats a savings of $6 million in rolling stock, plus reduction in fuel, maintenance, insurance and the space needed to house them.

Now lets look at ladder companies in the same 3 departments. Depending on the size (hight &/or needed fire flow) of the buildings in each of the 3 districts will determine if they need a ladder company or a "service" company (ISO will credit a properly equipped rescue as a service company when an ariel ladder is not needed). Each of the 3 depts needs either a ladder or a service company and each also needs a spare ladder or a service company. Since almost every dept in Westchester has a ladder, thats 6 ladder companies (most also own a rescue) needed. Now most depts do not own a spare ladder, so they have too many engines and not enough trucks. The ISO requirement for this community is 1 ladder and 1 spare a savings of 4 equipped ladders or a savings of about $4 million plus the other savings.

Why are taxes so high in Westchester compared to other parts of the country? The above example shows how we over spend in the fire service, think of how we do the same in schools and other services.

Barry, thanks for all of your informative posts. You have always been the go-to guy when it comes down to it.

One word here: CONSOLIDATION! Barry, i think even you could/would agree with me on this lol.

Edited November 21, 2010 by BFD1054

[x635 4,066]

One of the big things about having ISO rating down here....having a proper hydrant system with good pressure!

[helicopper 1,050]

Adding a quint to you fleet may help your rating (i.e replacing 2 ladders with 2 quints = 2 ladders + 1 engine [each is 1/2 ). But replacing and engine and a truck with one (to "save" money) hurts your rating. I watched one dept convince the "board" that merging the engine & ladder with a new quint would save $500,000. There ISO rate changed and it will now cost the property owners about $7,000,000 in increase premiums (over 12 years) to save $500,000.

Is this theoretically $7M or actually $7M? How much did their ISO rating change that it impacted their residents so much? If they were a 4 and went to 5 or 6, that's the same grouping so where is this impact? Didn't we talk about ratings being banded in another thread and learn that ISO 1-3 and ISO 4-7 were the groupings most used?

Much attention is paid to this and I wholeheartedly agree that it is important but I just wonder if insurance companies are actually banging their customers over the head like this or if it is a potential increase that most don't see.

All this attention being paid to the rolling stock but if 10 pieces of apparatus get to a job with 1-2 guys on them, you're still short of the 36+1 you need, right?

[Bnechis 3,961]

One of the big things about having ISO rating down here....having a proper hydrant system with good pressure!

The municipal water system is worth 40% of the total rating. The FD is 50% and communications is 10%.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is this theoretically $7M or actually $7M? How much did their ISO rating change that it impacted their residents so much?

It was only theoreticall because they decided to not replace the engine & truck with a quint. They bought a quint and kept the old engine.

If they were a 4 and went to 5 or 6, that's the same grouping so where is this impact? Didn't we talk about ratings being banded in another thread and learn that ISO 1-3 and ISO 4-7 were the groupings most used?

Its only banded for residential in NYS. The bands are 1-3=A, 4-6=B, & 7-10=C. In NYS 239 depts are A, 1,417 are B's and 868 are C's

Commercial every number counts. And in this case they were a low 5 and the change would have moved tham to a high 7

Much attention is paid to this and I wholeheartedly agree that it is important but I just wonder if insurance companies are actually banging their customers over the head like this or if it is a potential increase that most don't see.

They do pay attention, but most home owners do not notice because whats an additional cpl of hundreed. But add that up over the 10-15 year rating period and add up that money for every property in a community we are talking millions being spent.

When the ISO rating improves its common to see insurance sales people move into an area and offer discounts to "steal" new customers.

All this attention being paid to the rolling stock but if 10 pieces of apparatus get to a job with 1-2 guys on them, you're still short of the 36+1 you need, right?

Correct. The apparatus is just one aspect, the personnel is worth a lot more points. Now lets consider how the personnel in my example work out.

if each of those 3 depts. maintaned 2 engines and a ladder they still need 36+1 members on every fire call. Thats 111 firefighters but if each dept. runs an engine, 1 runs a ladder and 1 a rescue. Thats 5 rigs for a fire call, if each rig ran with aproximatly 7 members you'd be golden. Thats one dept running 7+1 and the other two running 14 each. Wow many depts can actually manage this.

[sfrd18 360]

The municipal water system is worth 40% of the total rating. The FD is 50% and communications is 10%.

In the FD section, what are some of the main points that the ISO looks for when rating a department?

[Bnechis 3,961]

In the FD section, what are some of the main points that the ISO looks for when rating a department?

Personnel (onduty and oncall)

Training

Apparatus including spares- all including minimum equipment and testing (pumps, hose and ladders)

Station locations (distance to calls)

Prefire planning

In depts without municipal water (hydrants) they evaluate the FD's ability o maove water (but only if the FD requestes it) Otherwise they are automatically rated a 9 (on a scale of 1-10)

[INIT915 1,119]

Barry:

Is there a publicly accessible website to visit bto learn the ISO status where we live?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry:

Is there a publicly accessible website to visit bto learn the ISO status where we live?

No, ISO sells the ratings to the insurance companies. They notify the mayor & fire chief as o what the local dept is rated. It is also on most insurance policies, however it is coded as part of a 4 or 5 number system, which tells the agent, the building construction, sprinklers and FD rating.

[abaduck 123]

Personnel (onduty and oncall)

Training

Apparatus including spares- all including minimum equipment and testing (pumps, hose and ladders)

Station locations (distance to calls)

Prefire planning

In depts without municipal water (hydrants) they evaluate the FD's ability o maove water (but only if the FD requestes it) Otherwise they are automatically rated a 9 (on a scale of 1-10)

Barry, a question for you (just out of curiosity; no axe to grind here) - there seems to be one very important item missing from this list: mutual aid.

Whether two or more adjoining departments are formally consolidated, or whether they just have a mutual aid plan in place seems fairly moot to me; what matters is the quality, quantity, and timeliness of the TOTAL response when called upon to mitigate a serious incident. How does ISO weigh that into the assessment?

Clearly it's one thing if we're looking at Middle of Nowhere FD where the nearest MA is an hour away; they HAVE to be self-sufficient, and their ISO rating will stand or fall entirely on their own performance on the factors you list above. But if you're a department in a dense suburb (which much of lower Westchester is), the fact that you have, say, three other departments within a couple of miles ready, willing and able to respond should have a very significant impact on your rating. Whether you're one consolidated department or three independent departments, the resources are still there...

Edited November 22, 2010 by abaduck

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Barry, a question for you (just out of curiosity; no axe to grind here) - there seems to be one very important item missing from this list: mutual aid.

Whether two or more adjoining departments are formally consolidated, or whether they just have a mutual aid plan in place seems fairly moot to me; what matters is the quality, quantity, and timeliness of the TOTAL response when called upon to mitigate a serious incident. How does ISO weigh that into the assessment?

Clearly it's one thing if we're looking at Middle of Nowhere FD where the nearest MA is an hour away; they HAVE to be self-sufficient, and their ISO rating will stand or fall entirely on their own performance on the factors you list above. But if you're a department in a dense suburb (which much of lower Westchester is), the fact that you have, say, three other departments within a couple of miles ready, willing and able to respond should have a very significant impact on your rating. Whether you're one consolidated department or three independent departments, the resources are still there...

here is link from ISO dealing with M/A.

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3008.html

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry, a question for you (just out of curiosity; no axe to grind here) - there seems to be one very important item missing from this list: mutual aid.

here is link from ISO dealing with M/A.

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3008.html

ISO does not recognize mutual aid. Maybe because their is no garuntee that it will even be called or called in a timely manor. They recognize automatic, which will respond everytime.

While this is better, each dept is still basicly rated as stand alone for the apparatus. if you take the extra step you save 10 million.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Bnechis

[PEMO3 523]

Barry, it seems you are really up on the ISO info, I have one question. Would an agreement with another district to "share a spare" cover a district as meeting the spare apparatus requirement?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry, it seems you are really up on the ISO info, I have one question. Would an agreement with another district to "share a spare" cover a district as meeting the spare apparatus requirement?

Generally Yes. I suggested this to one town that had 4 or 5 ladders (different fire depts), that whoever was getting a new one, make that the spare for the town and let everyone chip in for maintaining it.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Some good info here. We just had our state's ISO rater (Maine, we have just one guy)at our county Chief's meeting. A few highlights:

*Mutual aid doesn't count if it isn't automatic.

*Automatic aid doesn't count if you don't document joint training/drills.

*You can use auto-aid FD's during your rural water proofing, but it only counts for the FD being tested, the aiding FD's get no credit and cannot use that test for their FD's (yes, sadly that was asked)

*Sharing apparatus doesn't count in most cases, due to distances and staffing concerns, except in the "spare" category.

*Spares can be shared if all FD's have access and trained personnel. In our area a shared spare aerial seems to be a great option.

*many of the equivalency items don't make sense? A TIC isn't on the list, but can be used to replace a cutting torch. Maybe it's because Larry Stevens called TIC's "lasers" for years?

Edited November 23, 2010 by antiquefirelt