Nightmare in Shanghai

[Ga-Lin 86]

Anyone see the pix of Highrise apt fire in Shanghai, China. 42 fatalities over 90 injured. Makes me think of a chimney fire that you can see through, fully involved from top to bottom. Flames visible on multiple floors & from all sides (exposures?)

Http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40196455/displaymode/1247?beginSlide=1from/toolbar

Edited November 15, 2010 by Ga-Lin

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Wow! Impressive fire. What a tragedy with 42 casualties recorded so far. Make you wonder what went wrong and why people could not get out...

[Billy 68]

Wow! That was incredible! Hadn't heard about that. Thanks for posting.

[NJMedic 96]

I'm betting it wasn't sprinkled. I red the buildng was under renovation and was wrapped with a scafolding so I'm also guessing that allowed the fire to auto communication to the higher floors. The pictures actaully remind me of the One Merdian Plaze fire in Philadelphia back in 1991.

[huzzie59 75]

Bamboo scaffolding with a wrap on the outside. Some type of netting/covering.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The dead count is up to 53. Welders held for starting the fire:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_china_fire

"Made in China."

[IzzyEng4 427]

They say they can build a high-rise over there in 90 days, and burn it down in 90 seconds. Look at every building fire, demolition, construction project, ect that has happened over there in the past 5 years. You would think that after all that has happened in China with tragedies like this they would change their building construction and safety standards.

Very unfortunate for the people over there but makes me feel better that I live in this country.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Youtube credit: Berryzpaul

Shows the first due engine, and the first line stretched on the fire. Note the lack of any aerial devices....

[Ga-Lin 86]

Youtube credit: Berryzpaul

Shows the first due engine, and the first line stretched on the fire. Note the lack of any aerial devices....

Wow! Just watched the video. Roaring top to bottom right from the start. I guess having strict building codes is a good thing!

[sfrd18 360]

Anyone see the pix of Highrise apt fire in Shanghai, China. 42 fatalities over 90 injured. Makes me think of a chimney fire that you can see through, fully involved from top to bottom. Flames visible on multiple floors & from all sides (exposures?)

Http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40196455/displaymode/1247?beginSlide=1from/toolbar

Wow, that's too bad. Already 58 people killed and many injured. It's amazing more weren't saved. The building, being almost completely involved, kind of reminds me of the Towering Inferno a little. Also, bamboo scaffolding? Doesn't really sound all that fire-safe.

Youtube credit: Berryzpaul

Shows the first due engine, and the first line stretched on the fire. Note the lack of any aerial devices....

WOW!!! That's shocking!!! Around 15 floors goin' good, and their making an exterior attack from the ground with NO snorkels/ladders on scene yet(or at least none hitting the fire from all sides)?!?!?! If that were say, New York, you'd already have AT LEAST a 2nd Alarm going with at least 5 Ladders on scene by then, with the commanding Division Chief prepared to call in more alarms. Was there a reason that there were so few rigs on scene by this time?

Edited November 21, 2010 by sfrd18

[efdcapt115 1,511]

WOW!!! That's shocking!!! Around 15 floors goin' good, and their making an exterior attack from the ground with NO snorkels/ladders on scene yet(or at least none hitting the fire from all sides)?!?!?! If that were say, New York, you'd already have AT LEAST a 2nd Alarm going with at least 5 Ladders on scene by then, with the commanding Division Chief prepared to call in more alarms. Was there a reason that there were so few rigs on scene by this time?

This is what people in the United States take for granted. While they are busy nit-picking on guys with disability pensions, they NEVER take into account that building codes, and fire protection WAS ALWAYS PROACTIVELY PUSHED BY THE FIRE SERVICE. The hotels we stay in with the sprinkler heads right in the rooms, the design and construction of fire stairwells, you know the drill here.

(PS NOTE: The World Trade Center was exempted from the NYC building code because it was Port Authority property. I think it Chief John O'Hagan who tried to fight them, and told them to build better stairwells, instead of the two sheet-rock thick walls that were used, he called for the NYC standard fire escape stairwells, made out of brick at least. He lost the argument, we saw the results.)

How about the way the fire service responds? Like you pointed out, a couple of lines from the outside. Sure 5 truck companies would have been on scene back home. But those companies would have been inside and up the stairs doing the search.

I read they had over 100 fire trucks on the scene eventually at this fire. But like so many things in China, their first response, when it was most needed was obviously inept and inadequate, and they have 54 bodies to show for it so far.

They arrested the welders; they should arrest the Jackie Chan film admirer who allows them to use bamboo scaffolding. But that's probably a higher up in the communist regime; for the most part they are untouchable.

[sfrd18 360]

How about the way the fire service responds? Like you pointed out, a couple of lines from the outside. Sure 5 truck companies would have been on scene back home. But those companies would have been inside and up the stairs doing the search.

Right! The FDNY would of had ladder companies searching and maybe a few tower ladders hitting the building from the outside closer to the ground. Plus, over here, we would have started an interior attack(why didn't they use the building's standpipe system?), as well as search and rescue.

And, I totally agree with you there. People in this country do take building fire safety codes for granted. Plus, our fire service, as far as (mainly)response times(half of those 100 pieces of fire apparatus should have been on scene long before the video was taken and most of the building was engulfed), amount of fire apparatus on scene, fire attack methods, firefighter safety, search and rescue methods, and even high-rise firefighting in general, is much more evolved and advanced firefighting, as compared to many fire departments in parts of Europe and Asia. Not to say that these departments are still using horse-drawn steam engines, but firefighting in the U.S. is really one of the best firefighting industries in the world.

I guess it also helps in situations like this that our country is a Democracy.

Edited November 21, 2010 by sfrd18

[Ga-Lin 86]

Right! The FDNY would of had ladder companies searching and maybe a few tower ladders hitting the building from the outside closer to the ground. Plus, over here, we would have started an interior attack(why didn't they use the building's standpipe system?), as well as search and rescue.

And, I totally agree with you there. People in this country do take building fire safety codes for granted. Plus, our fire service, as far as (mainly)response times(half of those 100 pieces of fire apparatus should have been on scene long before the video was taken and most of the building was engulfed), amount of fire apparatus on scene, fire attack methods, firefighter safety, search and rescue methods, and even high-rise firefighting in general, is much more evolved and advanced firefighting, as compared to many fire departments in parts of Europe and Asia. Not to say that these departments are still using horse-drawn steam engines, but firefighting in the U.S. is really one of the best firefighting industries in the world.

I guess it also helps in situations like this that our country is a Democracy.

Maybe they didn't even have a standpipe system. They obviously didn't have a sprinkler system.

[sfrd18 360]

Maybe they didn't even have a standpipe system. They obviously didn't have a sprinkler system.

I wouldn't be surprised. If they've got the building encased with bamboo scaffolding, they've probably not taken many fire precautions.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Right! The FDNY would of had ladder companies searching and maybe a few tower ladders hitting the building from the outside closer to the ground.

In general doing both at the same time is a good way to kill firefighters.

Plus, over here, we would have started an interior attack(why didn't they use the building's standpipe system?), as well as search and rescue.

Because FD's in America never just stand outside and shoot water in thru windows? There are millions of large multi dwellings in this country that do not have standpipe systems (over 100 in my city alone). & I have seen many depts that do not have enough interior qualified ff's to perform SAR.

People in this country do take building fire safety codes for granted.

While that is true, you put down other countries, many are much more proactive than we are. Read Fire in America (I and II) we have the worst record of all industrialized nations.

Plus, our fire service, as far as (mainly)response times(half of those 100 pieces of fire apparatus should have been on scene long before the video was taken and most of the building was engulfed), amount of fire apparatus on scene, fire attack methods, firefighter safety, search and rescue methods, and even high-rise firefighting in general, is much more evolved and advanced firefighting, as compared to many fire departments in parts of Europe and Asia. Not to say that these departments are still using horse-drawn steam engines, but firefighting in the U.S. is really one of the best firefighting industries in the world.

Its wonderfull that you feel we are so advanced. Firefighting in most of europe is much more organized, with much better training (particularly in the volunteer sector and in all aspects of command). There equipment is much more advanced, particularly for highrise. And while Shanghai may or may not have a great response, how many rigs in America are properly staffed or can even get out the door? Paging any available driver for the 3rd time........

I guess it also helps in situations like this that our country is a Democracy.

That has very little to do with it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe they didn't even have a standpipe system. They obviously didn't have a sprinkler system.

I wouldn't be surprised. If they've got the building encased with bamboo scaffolding, they've probably not taken many fire precautions.

Yes in America we use metal scaffolds, but standpipes, sprinklers and other fire precaustions are not always used here either: consider Meridan plaza, 1st interstate bank, the World Trade Center, Charrlston, Worchester, Our Lady of Angles, Coconut grove, Iroquios Theater, Triangle Shirt Waist, Deutsche Bank....and the list goes on and on.

And the number one fire killer: the single family home in the US.

We lead the world in fire loss of life and its because we do not fight for fire safety.

[sfrd18 360]

In general doing both at the same time is a good way to kill firefighters.

Because FD's in America never just stand outside and shoot water in thru windows? There are millions of large multi dwellings in this country that do not have standpipe systems (over 100 in my city alone). & I have seen many depts that do not have enough interior qualified ff's to perform SAR.

While that is true, you put down other countries, many are much more proactive than we are. Read Fire in America (I and II) we have the worst record of all industrialized nations.

Its wonderfull that you feel we are so advanced. Firefighting in most of europe is much more organized, with much better training (particularly in the volunteer sector and in all aspects of command). There equipment is much more advanced, particularly for highrise. And while Shanghai may or may not have a great response, how many rigs in America are properly staffed or can even get out the door? Paging any available driver for the 3rd time........

That has very little to do with it.

Obviously, having tower ladders set up with men inside the building doesn't happen at the same time.

And, yes, there are many multiple dwellings in this country that don't have a standpipe set up, but a modern residential high-rise, over 20 stories without one?

And, yes some dept.'s don't have enough qualified interior firefighters(mainly volunteer), but generally paid departments, especially large cities do.

I'm not trying to put down of bash other countries and their firefighting service. I would love to go and travel to other countries and most of all, investigate their firefighting methods, and maybe learn some different ones. And, I realize that our country's reputation for fire damages and loss of life is not great, but not many people, say, staying at a hotel often pay attention to the many fire safety aspects that are designed to keep them safe. Also, when was the last time that there's been a high-rise fire in this country that has claimed the lives of over 50 people in the past 10-15 years(excluding 9/11)? Not that the record's much higher in other countries, but the last major high-rise fires in this country in the past 20 years were the First Interstate Bank Fire in Los Angeles, CA in 1988(which killed one), and Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia, PA in 1991(which killed three firefighters).

I also agree that many European and Asia fire departments are more advanced, including in high-rise firefighting, but a city like Shanghai not having a great response time is not good. Response time in a fire department is crucial in saving lives and protecting property. Seconds can mean the difference between life and death for a fire victim. Yes, it's also true that many fire departments in the U.S. aren't properly staffed. However, staff cutting doesn't help. And mainly, only volunteer or paid-on-call departments have to worry about "getting out the door" or waiting for a driver to arrive. Even the lowest-staffed paid departments have at least one-two firefighters on a rig, including a driver.

[sfrd18 360]

Yes in America we use metal scaffolds, but standpipes, sprinklers and other fire precaustions are not always used here either: consider Meridan plaza, 1st interstate bank, the World Trade Center, Charrlston, Worchester, Our Lady of Angles, Coconut grove, Iroquios Theater, Triangle Shirt Waist, Deutsche Bank....and the list goes on and on.

And the number one fire killer: the single family home in the US.

We lead the world in fire loss of life and its because we do not fight for fire safety.

While it's also true that a single-family house fire is the number one fire killer in the U.S., and we are the leader in the world with loss of life in fire, as far as high-rise firefighting goes, we do have a pretty clean record.

Also, things like sprinklers and standpipes were used in many of these high-rises mentioned, but there were other factors: The One Meridian Plaza Fire of 1991 in Philadelphia's main problems were a failed electrical system and standpipe problems; The First Interstate Bank Fire on 1988 in L.A. had faulty fire alarms and sprinklers; The Triangle Shift Waist Fire of 1911 in New York was caused by little to no fire safety rules/laws for or carried out on buildings, especially high-rises at the time, as well as locked doors to prevent escape for the 146 workers that were killed; And, as for the Deutsche Bank Fire in New York following 9/11, the building was in the process of being dismantled and many fire safety aspects were not functioning or were taken out.

However, I do agree that our country should fight for more and follow the current fire safety/preventions practices/rules and regulations.