Yorktown moves ahead with Kitchawan firehouse

[x635 4,066]

Yorktown moves ahead with Kitchawan firehouse despite past defeats

By Brian J. Howard • bjhoward@lohud.com • November 1, 2010

YORKTOWN — With the money in hand and no need for voter approval, officials are proceeding with plans for a Kitchawan firehouse.

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.lohud.com/article/20101101/NEWS02/11010327/Yorktown-moves-ahead-with-Kitchawan-firehouse-despite-past-defeats

[jack10562 414]

Yorktown residents have spoken three times already, each time saying NO to building a firehouse there, and now we find out the commissioners go ahead and "hide" the money to make it happen. (in plain sight, as it turns out)

They could have easily contracted with Millwood for coverage if the need was so pressing, and put the rest of the money to good use elsewhere. Or imagine this: they could have even given it back to the Yorktown taxpayers!

[Bnechis 3,961]

"YORKTOWN — With the money in hand and no need for voter approval, officials are proceeding with plans for a Kitchawan firehouse........After the last of three bond issues was rejected by voters in three years, officials vowed to set the money aside and pay for the project outright......"The plan is to basically ignore what three permissive referendums told them was the taxpayers' intent," said Brian Carroll of Old Kitchawan Road. "They are unwilling to listen to the reality that generally people really don't want this.""<<

Almost every political ad over the past month (local, regional state & national) have discused the spending of taxpayers money.

>> "Fire Chief Martin McGannon said the area has grown since the firehouse was first proposed but is only accessible to volunteers by Route 100 and the Taconic Parkway..... "The need's always been there, and it's actually increased," McGannon said. He said the unmanned house would allow him to station apparatus there." <<

How is an unmanned house going to protect the public? Does YFD have volunteers who live nearby? When the bond issue 1st came up, I remember reading that they had no volunteers there and they would have to respond in private vehicles (down the TSP) to get to the station to respond.

>> "Opposition quickly sprang up among neighbors who questioned the need, citing neighboring Millwood's Route 134 firehouse and the potential to share coverage with that district......The fire district has long argued that its mutual aid agreement with Millwood does not relieve it of primary responsibility for protecting southern Yorktown." <<

While it may not relieve them, it could give them the 1st due engine and YFD sends the rest from the existing fire stations. Most of the contry understands "closest available units" but in Westchester we only understand spend more tax money.

[mfc2257 464]

The Yorktown Fire District's southern lines are drawn in a manor that do not protect the citizens within its boundaries. I don't know many who will argue that Yorktown is a bad fire department. On the contrary, every time I've worked with them I've thought that they are professional, extremely well trained, and well staffed. At the same time, no one can argue that the membership base for the YFD is located north of the reservoir. There are areas of the district that are less than a mile from either of the Millwood stations where Millwood's membership is strong and able to respond within a timely manor. There are several areas that come to mind like the area of Shinglehouse Road in front of IBM where the YFD district begins, it's a mile from Millwood Station 1 and saturated with Millwood firefighters. On the other hand you can place a YFD substation on Rt134 a similar distance away that is in an area void of YFD firefighters. So maybe they'll get one or two members that live close, but by 2 in 2 out standards that apparatus will be useless until the remainder of their members arrive from north of the reservoir.

The answer here is to share a little more and spend a little less.

Yes as the lines are drawn, it is Yorktown's responsibility to provide protection to the ares south of the reservoir. Apparatus located in the vicinity without an abundance to staff that apparatus in a timely manor does not satisfy that responsibility. I would argue that responding from YFD HQ with a full crew that will be completely dressed and packed up when they arrive is more efficient than members driving their POV the same distance to arrive at a station and still have to don their PPV and respond in apparatus to the scene.

For many years MFC has indicated that they would respond to incidents on a dual response basis south of the reservoirs in conjunction with YFD. This same method works very well for Briarcliff and Millwood on the TSP south of Rt 100 where both are dispatched and those who are in need of aid receive it in a timely manor. I'm sure a similar arrangement can be worked out between MFC and YFD and even include a "mutual aid member" status for any YFD members who are in the area when a call comes in to respond on/with Millwood apparatus.

Edited November 1, 2010 by mfc2257

[DMA327 12]

I love the fact that in todays society, fire departments around Westchester County and most other towns and villages proclaim that their members are volunteering their time for the good of their communties. Yet some departments still tend to put up a needless firehouse a couple miles away from another fire departments firehouse!

This is such an utter waste of taxpayer dollars! For once I'd love to see a fire department swallow their pride, re-draw their boundaries, and let whomever is closest take the job in. Why spend millions of dollars on an un-needed facility when you can just re-draw the district lines or have a mutual aid plan in place to provide the best coverage of a certain area for the good of civilions!!! I can't even recall how many times I've heard certain fire departments get sent to fires when there was a neighboring company full of firemen just waiting for their pagers to go off at their firehouse literally BLOCKS AWAY!

This may be one of the most absurd stories I've heard in quite some time. "We can't let them take our fire"...give me a ******** break people!

[helicopper 1,050]

What is the legality of a government entity doing something that has been voted down by the taxpayers? Can a government entity "horde" funds to do a project without taxpayer approval? I thought every government entity had to have a zero budget balance at the end of their fiscal year (notwithstanding contingency funds).

[PC_420 28]

What is the legality of a government entity doing something that has been voted down by the taxpayers? Can a government entity "horde" funds to do a project without taxpayer approval? I thought every government entity had to have a zero budget balance at the end of their fiscal year (notwithstanding contingency funds).

Seth,

It all matters on whether or not Yorktown is a 'Fire District' or 'Fire Protection District'. In a Fire District the fire department is a government entity and be accountable for all their funds to the people of said district. In a Fire Protection District the fire department is technically a private corporation that is contracted by the government to provide fire protection and is provided funds by the government but those funds become the property of the corporation and as long as fire and rescue services are completed there isn't much that can be done besides canceling the contract and finding another whole entity to provide those services.

But in my opinion, I believe it is highly irresponsible for the fire department to disregard the obvious will of the people and build the new firehouse, no matter which funds they now use.

[JohnnyOV 2]

The vote that went out and was shot down many years ago was on whether or not the District should go out to bond on the money for the firehouse. The bond was shot down, not the firehouse itself.

The commissioners then chose to set aside money each year, rather then go out to bond, in a Sta 3 Reserve Fund, as a direct line item on the budget. The budget is public and legal notices are put out each month in newspapers that the readings will occur. This was not hidden or pork barreled anywhere, and can also be found on the Engine Co. Website here http://www.yorktownfire.org/content/ourdistrict/ .

Edited November 2, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[dadbo46 50]

Perception is worse than the truth.

[x635 4,066]

Seth,

helicopper is not me.

x635 is me.

[x635 4,066]

I'm asking this because I've lived in Texas for 3+ years now and I am out of the loop..

Has this area grown in population? Does this affect ISO?

Yorktown is a great department and is financially strong, but maybe there is other reasons to build this firehouse? Is this close to any large body of water where their dive team could be located? Could Yorktown VAC station a ambulance there if needed? Could Yorktown use this station to place equipment that crowds the firehouse and they are running out of space? Would they have enough space to train there? Is this the primary area where they need the tanker? Are they worried about Millwood not getting out and them becoming responsible should something that's not in writing happen?

Just some thoughts and questions.

[Healz 30]

Wow! Petty politicians stealing public funds for pet projects.

HOW NOVEL

[PC_420 28]

helicopper is not me.

x635 is me.

Ha, I knew that too, my bad

[mfc2257 464]

Wow! Petty politicians stealing public funds for pet projects.

HOW NOVEL

I would err on the side of caution here with regard to whether or not their is theft. I have reviewed the publicly available budget information going back several years, and in plain sight as a line item, the funds are listed each year with a very conspicuous title "Station 3 Construction Reserve". The district has essentially squirreled away spare change over the years so that they wouldn't have to get a vote from the taxpayers.

The point that the district seems to be missing is that the money started in the pockets of the taxpayers. It didn't arrive under the Christmas tree every year as a $75,000 Home Depot gift card from Saint Nick. This is simply a case of smoke and mirrors..... The taxpayers said no when it went to referendum so the district made it a budget item. The only difference here is that instead of paying $75,000 a year in debt service and principal reduction on a note authorized by the tax payers, they use a $75,000 budget surplus to pre-fund the liability.... BUT it still comes from the taxpayer. If the taxpayers said no then each property owner should receive a pro rata reduction in property taxes for the amounts set aside by the district.

Again, this is not a rant against the firefighters of the Yorktown Fire Department. I will be the first to say that for the better part of a decade, I couldn't stand most of the commissioners of the Millwood Fire District. They made poor decision after poor decision with negative taxpayer sentiment growing with each ill conceived move. There is plenty to be learned from what has gone on with Millwood's attempt to build a new headquarters over the past 15 years. But those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.....

I digress........

[Remember585 815]

It didn't arrive under the Christmas tree every year as a $75,000 Home Depot gift card from Saint Nick.

So are you saying this $75,000 Home Depot card does exist? I want one, now!

Yorktown didn't hide their intention to go ahead with Station #3, nor did they hide the money to do it. As for the intent of building this station, I've always felt that nobody knows a fire department better than that fire department. If Yorktown feels this is a necessary item, that's their decision.

[ajsbear 11]

For once I'd love to see a fire department swallow their pride, re-draw their boundaries, and let whomever is closest take the job in. Why spend millions of dollars on an un-needed facility when you can just re-draw the district lines or have a mutual aid plan in place to provide the best coverage of a certain area for the good of civilions!!! I can't even recall how many times I've heard certain fire departments get sent to fires when there was a neighboring company full of firemen just waiting for their pagers to go off at their firehouse literally BLOCKS AWAY!

Maybe it is time to look at some of the district boundaries. I remember seeing on LI where there was a fire in the Nassau County 8th pct. Levittown FD was next door but Bethpage was 1st due. LFD was called on MA.

There are many instances where the 1st due is no where near the closest company. It may be that it is time to revisit and redraw the lines to give the people better responses. But before that happens everyone has to check their ego's and think of it as best for the tax payer and not the fire company.

Won't happen in this lifetime I'm afraid.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Maybe it is time to look at some of the district boundaries. I remember seeing on LI where there was a fire in the Nassau County 8th pct. Levittown FD was next door but Bethpage was 1st due. LFD was called on MA.

There are many instances where the 1st due is no where near the closest company. It may be that it is time to revisit and redraw the lines to give the people better responses. But before that happens everyone has to check their ego's and think of it as best for the tax payer and not the fire company.

Won't happen in this lifetime I'm afraid.

The Long Island situation was maybe 25 or 30 years ago. The 2 fire Depts in question now have an automatic mutual aid in thier procedures for these areas now. The dept. that covers the area is alerted as well as the nearest station for the other district on the same tone out. Levittown FD was formed in 1950, thus their area was "plucked" from exsisting dept.s areas and a very odd district map was created. Levittown has this automatic tone out with Bethpage and East Meadow fire districts, and they have it in turn with levittown.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I have reviewed the publicly available budget information going back several years, and in plain sight as a line item, the funds are listed each year with a very conspicuous title "Station 3 Construction Reserve". The district has essentially squirreled away spare change over the years so that they wouldn't have to get a vote from the taxpayers........ they use a $75,000 budget surplus to pre-fund the liability.... BUT it still comes from the taxpayer. If the taxpayers said no then each property owner should receive a pro rata reduction in property taxes for the amounts set aside by the district.

Since it was budgeted, it was not "squirreled away spare change" or a "surplus"! It means they raised the tax rate by an additional $75,000 each year above and beyond what was needed to operate the department.

While it was clearly in the budget, those taxpayers who voted down the idea could have seen it, but, since they asked for $2 million ten years ago, they may have rightly figured it would take 26 years to save enough money (without inflation) based on that this still would not be an issue till 2030.

I wonder how much building you get these days for $600,000?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Since it was budgeted, it was not "squirreled away spare change" or a "surplus"! It means they raised the tax rate by an additional $75,000 each year above and beyond what was needed to operate the department.

While it was clearly in the budget, those taxpayers who voted down the idea could have seen it, but, since they asked for $2 million ten years ago, they may have rightly figured it would take 26 years to save enough money (without inflation) based on that this still would not be an issue till 2030.

I wonder how much building you get these days for $600,000?

Honestly a lot less than you would think. The private arm of the County owned Muscoot Farm (friends of Muscoot) erected what would be a steel, 4 apparatus bay (2 facing one way, 2 facing the other) barn on their property in less than a week for less than $30,000.

While it does not have a paved floor or much insulation, it was erected cheaply and quickly. If all you have to do is build on a kitchen, meeting room, office and a training room, you are essentially building a house. While a house may cost $750,000, it does not cost that much to build, especially if you are building it as a private organization and not a government municipality.

Edited November 3, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Bnechis 3,961]

As for the intent of building this station, I've always felt that nobody knows a fire department better than that fire department. If Yorktown feels this is a necessary item, that's their decision.

Thats one of the reasons Westchester is #1 in tax's. One of the reason for 58 FD's, 30+ PD's, 30+ EMS agencies, & more rigs than FDNY, because each department knows better. (not to mention how many schools and politicians).

So when a Westchester FD buys a rig thats to heavy to legaly drive on the bridges in their town, that shows that nobody knows better than them. or when they buy a rig that the members can't drive because its to big or too big for the house. Or in one case came with the wrong motor and drive train (they figured it out a year later why it would not perform). There are so many examples that we can go on forever.

If the depts know what is best, why do so few meet minimum standards? Why this year has PESH writting over 35 violations on just 3 Westchester Fire Departments (their maybe more, but I know of these).

When new safety standards come out everyone complains, but most came out after the fire service refused to protect its members and the stats showed it was needed.

How many depts have enough manpower? What are depts doing about it? Either they know its a problem and they are working on it or they are hoping it will solve it self (thats not knowing what your dept needs, better than anyone else).

It apears that yorktown taxpayers felt it was not needed.

I have worked with many depts over the years, training, teaching, assisting with policies, writing spec's, and grants etc. and very few depts know what they need.....they know what they want.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Honestly a lot more than you would think. The private arm of the County owned Muscoot Farm (friends of Muscoot) erected what would be a steel, 4 apparatus bay (2 facing one way, 2 facing the other) barn on their property in less than a week for less than $30,000.

While it does not have a paved floor or much insulation, it was erected cheaply and quickly. If all you have to do is build on a kitchen, meeting room, office and a training room, you are essentially building a house. While a house may cost $750,000, it does not cost that much to build, especially if you are building it as a private organization and not a government municipality.

A fire District is a "government municipality" subject to the Wicks Law and a "Barn" and A fire House are governed very diferently in the NYSUFP&BC (building code).

[x635 4,066]

Nobody cares about Fire Districts's or Commisioners except if you're in the fire service. The voter turnout to a general fire district election is probaly measly.

For example, and I'm only basing this on what I knew at the time. This department had Commsioners, most of them 70+ years in age, and several were retired from the career side. No one except the Commisioners friends turned out in these races, and many have been on the board for numerous years. There hasn't really even been anyone to run against them, and I wonder who will replace them, because the general public of this district really doesn't care if there fire district taxes increase.

Who's responsible if Millwood can't get out and it's Yorktown's first due, and I hope this never happens, someone perishes in a fire? Who would be responsible? I know there's drama in Millwood, who can't even get their headquarters redone because they went about it the wrong way. They should have just saved and built a firehouse.

What about ISO ratings? How will this affect that, and maybe lower home insurance premiums.

Yorktown is a great department and is financially strong and prudent as proven by this, but maybe there is other reasons to build this firehouse? Is this close to any large body of water where their dive team could be located? Could Yorktown VAC eventually station a ambulance there if needed? Could Yorktown use this station to place equipment that crowds the firehouse and they are running out of space? Would they have enough space to train there? Is this the primary area where they need the tanker?

There has been a Millwood/Yorktown Dual Response plan in place being "negotiated" for years now. This is an example of taxpayers who don't really care what's happening, and a board of commisioners WHO DO!

And look at Fairview. They have outgrown two of their firehouses to the point where they are obsolete basically, have a needed first out rescue that runs numerous calls for around 15 years now, has over 150,000 miles on it, and 60% of their district is non-taxable. When they went for bond, the voters all popped up out of nowhere to shoot this down. Even after Fairview tried everything to educate the voters why these changes are needed. What are they supposed to do? Given the laws that don't work, sometimes you HAVE to use creative funding.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A fire District is a "government municipality" subject to the Wicks Law and a "Barn" and A fire House are governed very diferently in the NYSUFP&BC (building code).

It is only subject to Wicks Law if the cost of the project exceeds $1,500,000 according to the NYSOGS 2009 revision. (Attached)

Additionally, can you be specific, including the statute, where the NYSUFP&BC discusses the requiremnts for a fire house and what is included?

If the residents of Yorktown approved the FD budget in an open process, even by electing commissioners, then they also approved the planned spending programs by supporting either the plan or the candidate. Therefore they have no one to blame but themselves and their own voter ignorance. If they were really this concerned then they should have been more involved.

Wicks Law.pdf

Edited November 3, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Bnechis 3,961]

Who's responsible if Millwood can't get out and it's Yorktown's first due, and I hope this never happens, someone perishes in a fire? Who would be responsible?

Who is responsible anytime a 1st due rig does not arrive (lack of personnel, breakdown, down treee, etc.)? 2nd due rigs cover. On the same note: who is responsible when it takes 30 minutes & 3 tone outs to get a response? This is a common occurance, but very rare to hear of litigation.

Would Millwood agree to cover if they knew they likely could not get out? I dont think they would.

I know there's drama in Millwood, who can't even get their headquarters redone because they went about it the wrong way. They should have just saved and built a firehouse.

If memory serves, the taxpayers in Millwood were much more engaged in stopping the bond and then electing commissioners who would work to stop this.

What about ISO ratings? How will this affect that, and maybe lower home insurance premiums.

It may but, only in that section (south of the resevoir) and the same lowering would be done with auto aid. Auto aid would acually improve it more since you would be increasing the total number of available firefighters.

Again the question needs to be asked who will staff this station? Are there volunteers that live in that area or must they drive past the other stations in POV's to get there?

Yorktown is a great department and is financially strong and prudent as proven by this, but maybe there is other reasons to build this firehouse? Is this close to any large body of water where their dive team could be located? Could Yorktown VAC eventually station a ambulance there if needed? Could Yorktown use this station to place equipment that crowds the firehouse and they are running out of space? Would they have enough space to train there? Is this the primary area where they need the tanker?

There could be, but that was not what they tried to sell it during the bond votes.

Would the dive team have to drive past the water to get to there equipment?

The Fire District is not responsible for supplying the VAC with space.

Unmanned storage buildings that are remote from the fire station(s) result in equipment that is not maintained and members that are not familure with it.

If a tanker is needed, is personnel available at this location?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Additionally, can you be specific, including the statute, where the NYSUFP&BC discusses the requiremnts for a fire house and what is included?

The entire code discusses the construction of all buildings in NYS except "agricultural" buildings which are generally considered to be exempt. In addition to structural requirements, there are new sismic standards, new electrical requirements, new energy savings, ventilation, exits, bathroom facilities, handicap access, etc.

If the residents of Yorktown approved the FD budget in an open process, even by electing commissioners, then they also approved the planned spending programs by supporting either the plan or the candidate. Therefore they have no one to blame but themselves and their own voter ignorance. If they were really this concerned then they should have been more involved.

If you believe this you should be ok with the following because America voted in the people who have proposed #1 and passed everyone after that:

1)H.R. 4646 - "Debt Free America Act." Here is how it would work, If you deposit $5,000.00 into your checking account or savings account the bank has to take out 1% or $50.00 of that money and send it to Washington. Then, any checks or cash you take out of your bank they will deduct 1% from what is still in the bank and send it to Washington. Total put in the Bank $5,000.00. $100.00 of that you give to Washington. This bill, spells it out that everyone will pay the Government 1% of their gross income. The vote is due by Dec 23 (before the Dems lose control of the house.

Jan. 1, 2011

2)Expiration of 2001 and 2003 Tax Relief

3)Personal income tax rates will rise 4-5%

4)Itemized deductions and personal exemptions will be phase out, which has the same mathematical effect as highermarginal tax rates of 3 - 5%.

5)Higher taxes on marriage and family:

- The "marriage penalty" will return from the first dollar of income.

- The child tax credit will be cut in half from $1000 to $500 per child.

- The standard deduction will no longer be doubled for married couples relative to the single level.

- The dependent care and adoption tax credits will be cut.

- The return of the Death Tax.

6)The capital gains tax will rise from 15% this year to 20% in 2011.

7)The dividends tax will rise from 15% this year to 39.6% in 2011.

8)These rates will rise another 3.8 percent in 2013.

9)Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or healthreimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

10)The HSA (Health Savings Account) Withdrawal Tax doubles from 10% to 20%

11) The Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) and Employer Tax Hikes

12)Tax Benefits for Education and Teaching Reduced:

The deduction for tuition and fees will not be available. Tax credits for education will be limited. Teachers will no longer be able to deduct classroom expenses. Coverdell Education Savings Accounts will be cut. The student loan interest deduction will be disallowed for hundreds of thousands of families.

13)Charitable Contributions from IRAs no longer allowed.

The residents of The United States approved the above budget in an open process, by electing senators & congress members, then they also approved the planned spending programs by supporting either the plan or the candidate. Therefore they have no one to blame but themselves and their own voter ignorance. If we were really this concerned then we should have been more involved.

[INIT915 1,119]

While I have nothing to do with Yorktown (except driving thru it every now and again), there are a few points to be made.

As mentioned, it would be fairly libelous to call this action a larceny, as, has been pointed out, the declination of the original bond proposal are non-binding on the Commissioners ultimate decision to pursue the project.

And has also been pointed out, there is a remedy for unhappy constituents. Vote out incumbent Commissioners. But, as has also already been pointed out. No one is interested in participating in elections for Commissioners. Voter apathy is frequently a problem, especially in Fire District races.

On on a separate note, many of the items list as being passed by Congress where not "passed", they are merely expiring with sunset provisions. A subtle, but distinct difference.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The entire code discusses the construction of all buildings in NYS except "agricultural" buildings which are generally considered to be exempt. In addition to structural requirements, there are new sismic standards, new electrical requirements, new energy savings, ventilation, exits, bathroom facilities, handicap access, etc.

If you believe this you should be ok with the following because America voted in the people who have proposed #1 and passed everyone after that:

1)H.R. 4646 - "Debt Free America Act." Here is how it would work, If you deposit $5,000.00 into your checking account or savings account the bank has to take out 1% or $50.00 of that money and send it to Washington. Then, any checks or cash you take out of your bank they will deduct 1% from what is still in the bank and send it to Washington. Total put in the Bank $5,000.00. $100.00 of that you give to Washington. This bill, spells it out that everyone will pay the Government 1% of their gross income. The vote is due by Dec 23 (before the Dems lose control of the house.

Jan. 1, 2011

2)Expiration of 2001 and 2003 Tax Relief

3)Personal income tax rates will rise 4-5%

4)Itemized deductions and personal exemptions will be phase out, which has the same mathematical effect as highermarginal tax rates of 3 - 5%.

5)Higher taxes on marriage and family:

- The "marriage penalty" will return from the first dollar of income.

- The child tax credit will be cut in half from $1000 to $500 per child.

- The standard deduction will no longer be doubled for married couples relative to the single level.

- The dependent care and adoption tax credits will be cut.

- The return of the Death Tax.

6)The capital gains tax will rise from 15% this year to 20% in 2011.

7)The dividends tax will rise from 15% this year to 39.6% in 2011.

8)These rates will rise another 3.8 percent in 2013.

9)Americans will no longer be able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or healthreimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin).

10)The HSA (Health Savings Account) Withdrawal Tax doubles from 10% to 20%

11) The Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) and Employer Tax Hikes

12)Tax Benefits for Education and Teaching Reduced:

The deduction for tuition and fees will not be available. Tax credits for education will be limited. Teachers will no longer be able to deduct classroom expenses. Coverdell Education Savings Accounts will be cut. The student loan interest deduction will be disallowed for hundreds of thousands of families.

13)Charitable Contributions from IRAs no longer allowed.

The residents of The United States approved the above budget in an open process, by electing senators & congress members, then they also approved the planned spending programs by supporting either the plan or the candidate. Therefore they have no one to blame but themselves and their own voter ignorance. If we were really this concerned then we should have been more involved.

While I do not agree with the legislation, we have no one to blame but ourselves because our inaction, ignorance and inattention caused this problem. The politicians who passes this are merely a tool of the people they represent, it is on the people to communicate what they want, not the politician dictating it. Three words, transparency, responsibility and effectiveness, those three words sum up my thoughts well; if the processes is transparent then it is our responsibility as citizens and tax payers to maintain its effectiveness by using the transparency to hold the politicians accountable to the publics will and desires. The Yorktown process was apparently transparent, if the public is really this caring then they should have been more responsible to stay on top of the process as a whole. It is the tragedy of a society when everyone thinks its not their problem and some one else will solve it until it actually comes up and burns them.

Is it possible for you to address my main point of my previous point and that was the application of the Wick Law in its current revision as it applies to the situation in Yorktown?

Edited November 4, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Bnechis 3,961]

On on a separate note, many of the items list as being passed by Congress where not "passed", they are merely expiring with sunset provisions. A subtle, but distinct difference.

Good point, thanks

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is it possible for you to address my main point of my previous point and that was the application of the Wick Law in its current revision as it applies to the situation in Yorktown?

Nothing to address, if the amounts do not meet the requirements.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Nothing to address, if the amounts do not meet the requirements.

Got it, thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Stay safe and have a good night.