Is there an FDNY EMS Hiring Freeze?

[wiscems 23]

I am having trouble making sense of the current hiring freeze. Does this whole racially unfair test hiring freeze apply to EMS as well or just to FF? Is there some other hiring freeze I am unaware of?

[ny10570 745]

Only Fire. While EMS is still hiring (only agency still expanding), they are fast coming up on their allotted head count. Few PD classes, no fire classes and a generally poorer job market has slowed the severe staffing losses to a trickle.

[wiscems 23]

Only Fire. While EMS is still hiring (only agency still expanding), they are fast coming up on their allotted head count. Few PD classes, no fire classes and a generally poorer job market has slowed the severe staffing losses to a trickle.

Thanks for the reply. So is it safe to assume that once FD starts hiring again, people will start "promoting" to FF and create more openings once again in EMS?

[Rescue97 6]

Thanks for the reply. So is it safe to assume that once FD starts hiring again, people will start "promoting" to FF and create more openings once again in EMS?

EMS is the real money maker for the fire department with just a pick up to the hospital will run you 600 dollars and a cardiac arrest is close to 5000. Now they "share" this money with fire because its under one department thats why they were able to save those houses from closing some years ago. The fire department is starting to relize this and are trying to put out more units and run down the voluntary hospital units. Good luck bro.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Thanks for the reply. So is it safe to assume that once FD starts hiring again, people will start "promoting" to FF and create more openings once again in EMS?

They do not generally promote all that many people to Fireman. In the past they have even pulled the promotion back because they needed the EMT's on the street. EMS is ALWAYS in need of quality EMT's, so I would assume it's a good place for someone who's into the job.

Response to the above poster; They have not expanded ambulance tours (believe me I wish they would, I've waited up to 20 minutes with a low priority patient when EMS is backed up). They have in fact cut ALS tours in the past couple of years to save money. EMS could make money in theory, BUT it doesn't always work out that way. The largest patrons of EMS are in the poorest of area's. Generally bad patients, not personally, but from a medical condition standpoint. Not much for preventative care and they are often in poor health. There are many contributing factors, but a lack of insurance is a big part of that. Who's paying the city? A lot of the time the answer is, no one.

An actual break-down of the numbers would be interesting. How much of the operating costs are actually recouped. I'd be shocked if it turned any profit at all. That's not supposed to be the point anyway. It's public safety, that's what we pay taxes for.

Edited October 29, 2010 by M' Ave

[ny10570 745]

I hate dragging. Up. Old posts, but m'ave had a better handle on EMS than most my co-workers.

We don't even come close to covering our payroll expenses let alone our operation and capital budget. Several years ago the union looked at the numbers and found they could turn an opkerational profit if they ran all the ALS tours city wide. Since then the system has expanded significantly without a similar rise in collections, so it looks like the days of running a surplus are gone until they start telling patients no.

[Guest NYCNYC]

Do you need to be an EMT already to be hired as FDNY EMS? They don't train?

[ny10570 745]

Gotta be an EMT first. They put you through a refresher then training on FDNY EMS ops, HazMat ops, EVOC, etc. They do run their own in house Paramedic program but you have to do a year as an EMT first.

Edited January 24, 2011 by ny10570

[x635 4,066]

If Paramedics are being promoted to firefighters, why not take advantage of that skillset, and run ALS or ALS Assesment Engines?

Also, is FDNY still running 8 hour tours exclusively? And what is the starting pay for a EMT and a Paramedic?

[ny10570 745]

Because that takes jobs away from FDNY EMS. If you're going to just have the Fire medics just to assessment and initial intervention, how much can you afford to pay them since you still have to have the ALS ambulance come and continue care?

EMS is still running 8 hour tours. A 12 hour program in Brooklyn wound up in a flaming pile of wreckage.

Starting pay for EMTs is 31,931 and paramedic is 43,690

EMS Pay Chart

[x635 4,066]

Because that takes jobs away from FDNY EMS. If you're going to just have the Fire medics just to assessment and initial intervention, how much can you afford to pay them since you still have to have the ALS ambulance come and continue care?

You are right, just why let a Paramedic's valuable training and skills go to waste, especially if it is a "fire service based" EMS agency?

Why did the 12 hour shift trial go so badly? Do the EMS personel prefer the 8's?

[M' Ave 1,466]

If Paramedics are being promoted to firefighters, why not take advantage of that skillset, and run ALS or ALS Assesment Engines?

Also, is FDNY still running 8 hour tours exclusively? And what is the starting pay for a EMT and a Paramedic?

I have never heard of a Medic being promoted to Fireman. Not to detract from EMT status, but the time and commitment needed to become a medic far exceeds that of EMT. This is just an observation, but I find that people who put in the time and energy to spend nearly a year in the medic training program are headed for a career as a medic and not interested in moving out of EMS. I'm sure there has been a medic that made that move, but I've never heard of one. I've worked with plenty of former EMTs.

As for running ALS engines, yikes....I wouldn't say that too loud around a room full of engine men. That's liable to start a fight!

In all seriousness, they city has a lot of ALS units (not enough but...) and engines are busy enough with EMS comprising 20-40 percent of run totals. I don't think they need to take on the extra runs, never mind having more companys out of service for fire duty.

[JM15 386]

Any word on when they are having another test? I know EMS had one a couple of months ago.

[ny10570 745]

Because its not a fire based EMS system. Its a fire dept run EMS system. Bellow COD Killduff, we're as separate from Fire as we are from PD. Hell asside from the buried CFR frequency we can't hear what's going on with FD, but I have every PD frequency except CityWide2. 14 years later its still a merger in progress.

A lot of factors combined to kill the 12 hours. Rather than being optional or only affecting some units it was imposed across the entire division. Many people have set up their whole life around a certain schedule and now with only a few weeks notice they were expected to change. So from the outset there was a lot of animosity and resistance. One of the upsides was built in OT to increase our annual hours worked to match Fire and PD. A few chiefs took it upon themselves to do everything in their power to curtail this OT and in the process took away another perk to the program, consistent schedule and regular partner. In the end, the members came to generally support it but so much damage was done by management that the members torpedoed it by banging in sick (the typical EMS response when angry).

Quite a few medics have gone over. We've even lost a couple Lts to the fire side. In the last fire class there were two guys that finished 9 months of medic basic on Friday and reported to the fire academy on Monday. For a little while there was a back and forth about staffing the EMS rooms on the 343 and Firefighter II and Fire had more than enough medics with NYC REMAC cards to put a medic on the boats right then.

Too many ALS units and not enough specificity in call triaging. M'Ave what percent of your calls do the medics keep you around to help? I figure half of the time its a real medical emergency I need the CFR to stick around and maybe you can double that for the calls that should get ALS and a CFR assigned. Then there's the litany of calls where CFRs should be assigned but aren't because the moon is 3/4's and its an even day, now all my cardiac jobs magically become diff breathers.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Too many ALS units and not enough specificity in call triaging. M'Ave what percent of your calls do the medics keep you around to help? I figure half of the time its a real medical emergency I need the CFR to stick around and maybe you can double that for the calls that should get ALS and a CFR assigned. Then there's the litany of calls where CFRs should be assigned but aren't because the moon is 3/4's and its an even day, now all my cardiac jobs magically become diff breathers.

I would say that the bus beats us and we get a 10-92 10% of the time. Of the remaining 90%, I think we are on scene prior to the bus for 5-10 minutes MOST of the time. Sometimes, rarely, it's notably longer and sometimes they pull up right behind us. As for keeping us on scene after we transfer the patient? Maybe 15% of the time for help with packaging, carry to transport and, of course, CPR.

[ny10570 745]

So there you go, by my extremely precise guestimated perception statistics a generous 30% of the calls are accurately typed and get the paramedics they need. The system is toast and I'm sure M'ave can attest to all the improvements UCT has made. The future sure looks rosy for NYC.

[M' Ave 1,466]

UCT or "U Can't Tell" as we call it daily.

That system sucks! Period.