Rural Tennessee fire sparks debate

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Abaduck, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I feel like the blame for this is going to get dumped on the FD, but its really not their fault. The county is telling them what to do, they don't have a choice in the matter. If this unincorporated area does not want to provide fire protection, the county should receive some form of funding to pay for it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1. Firefighters should never be put in that position;

Agreed

2. Proposition 1. above should NEVER happen in a first-world country that considers itself a superpower. If a community or city doesn't have fire service, the county or state or federal government should be REQUIRED to provide it. In a civilised country, no-one should EVER have to worry, before calling 911, 'have I paid my subscription?' or 'can I afford the bill?' or 'will they help me?'. Period. End of. No argument.

A family friend of mine lives in Alaska. His closest FD is over 180 miles away. The closest person to his home lives 30 miles away. He has no fire dept., should the state or federal government provide fire protection for him and how would they do it?

The State Forrestry Div. will respond to a forrest fire, but he says thats an hour wait for the copter. And he does not have 911 because there are no phones.

[Bnechis 3,961]

ABC world news tonight just ran a story on this and Good Morning America is doing something in the am on it. (They are claiming: "its more common than you think")

[helicopper 1,050]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is a tragic reality that shouldn't be. It's fire protection, not paying for cable. We all pay taxes. Fire protection should be part of the taxes paid.

I think the point we're all missing from our perspective here in the tax capital of the western world is that these people DO NOT pay taxes for fire service. They have no expectation for a response unless they opt into one of the alternative means to secure that service because the County doesn't provide fire service. I'm not saying I support this; it is simply their reality and as INIT points out, they knew it.

I've used that saying quite often myself, Chris, but it ain't necessarily so.

How many people here in the civilized part of the US do not pay their taxes and still get the full services of the PD, FD, EMS, Schools, rec facilities, hospitals, and on and on. Take a look at your last hospital bill. Know why an aspirin costs $4? Because you are paying for aspiriin for eight other people!

Also, neighborhoods with a large percent of non-taxpayers usually demand and get more from emergency services than the taxpayer's neighborhoods.

Point taken. You're absolutely right about that and I will continue to lobby for a remedy to this inequity. However this inequity is caused by a criminal act (illegally entering the US or failing to pay one's taxes) whereas these legal residents simply don't have a municipal fire service.

Chris, normally I agree with your logic but this time I have to differ. Lets assume a call comes in to WC County PD for a boat in distress, possible capsized, just east of Haverstraw Bay. Caller's description clearly puts it in Rockland waters. Will Westchester County sit on its hands and say well its in Rockland's waters or will they start a duel response regardless of their "duty to act"? You know the answer. There is a difference between duty to act and a moral obligation that comes with putting on a uniform be it professional or volunteer. When those values become blurred we loose sight of why we are doing what we do. in reading this article and seeing it say that someones personal property and / or life was worth $75 to save or not save it was the equivalent of paying for protection from organized crime.

Well, this is an entirely different scenario so let's add this twist. Before you board the boat that ultimately finds itself in distress there is a sign saying "NO RESCUE SERVICE IN THIS AREA", call this number to register for a rescue subscription from neighboring county (have credit card ready). Would they still have the same expectation for assistance?

How about skiiers who ski out of bounds and get charged for their rescues? Should they get rescued on our dime even though they crossed the boundary into "unprotected territory"?

And with the marine example there are maritime laws that may require vessels to respond and render assistance so the jurisdiction issue is moot. (Marine guys please correct me if I'm wrong).

We are suppose to provide assistance regardless of status, race, color, religion, sex or economic standing but only if you are on my side of the line.

In Westchester almost nobody ever crosses that line. If we did we would be dispatched by closest available unit, not dept. x & dept y. This is why we have communities that have only had ALS for a few years while others have had it for decades. This is why some communities have local police depts and other have NYS.

When White Plains had ALS but it was before Harrison even had BLS (just a stretcher car) and a cardiac arrest call came in in Harrison, you got what you paid for. Did you deserve ALS...yes..did you pay for it...no, did you get it....no.

Great point. If you look at the history, the lowest per capita income residents of Westchester County have for years enjoyed substantially higher levels of care and emergency services than their wealthy neighbors - even some of the wealthiest in the country.

Nobody squawked about that for DECADES! Literally!

A lot of good points, none of which add up to not a heck of a lot. I'll give you two simple propositions:

1. Firefighters should never be put in that position; if a homeowner in that position calls 911 asking for fire service, they should be told 'Sorry, you don't have fire service'.

2. Proposition 1. above should NEVER happen in a first-world country that considers itself a superpower. If a community or city doesn't have fire service, the county or state or federal government should be REQUIRED to provide it. In a civilised country, no-one should EVER have to worry, before calling 911, 'have I paid my subscription?' or 'can I afford the bill?' or 'will they help me?'. Period. End of. No argument.

Interesting perspective. How about the perspective that there is no requirement in NYS law for a munipality to provide Emergency Medical Services? All do (to some degree) but there is no requirement and depending on where you live (or have your accident/illness) could mean the difference between a comprehensive tiered response in 3-4 minutes or a BLS only response in 40.

Don't misunderstand me. I agree that this shouldn't be a problem in 2010 but it would appear that this very rural county has consciously chosen to ignore fire protection. It would be interesting to find out what fire protection plans all those businesses/plants have. I bet they paid their subscription - or have their own fire brigade.

I agree it is the municipality's highest priority. And the municipality is the county, since it is "OUTSIDE the City".

Exactly, the argument here is with the County that just last year chose to repeal the local law that would have enabled them to establish an FD.

Another interesting issue is that they have only 186 firefighters in their entire county. Of course there are only 245 calls per year outside of the cities. Still, half of one percent of the population. That's not a lot of support for the fire service.

[LTNRFD 266]

In reference to all these statements about providing fire protection, what would happen here in Westchester if let's say there was an area that was not in a city, village or fire protection district. Would the closest fire department be obligated to respond if the location was not in their district? Let's say it was an area of 50+ homes and they were not paying any fire taxes to any department of fire district. Would those home owners be entitled to fire protection from a fire department near their homes?????

I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

[bigrig77 95]

Ok here is my feelings for this area's problem. Charge the $75 for protection of homes and what not. If you choose not to pay then you will be billed accordingly for the response you receive. Bill them for overtime and fuel usage as well as a $75 fee for the protection. Then the family gets the protection for the remainder of the year and then they will pony up the measly $75 from then on. Once one person has to pay the full price then others will not want to pay and will get the coverage.

Also who is just gonna let a building burn solely because someone is not a list? We are here to protect and save lives. If someone were to be in trapped inside, would they say sorry you have no coverage? If so I guess all those fees that were collected would go right out the window with the lawsuit that would be filed.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Ok here is my feelings for this area's problem. Charge the $75 for protection of homes and what not. If you choose not to pay then you will be billed accordingly for the response you receive. Bill them for overtime and fuel usage as well as a $75 fee for the protection. Then the family gets the protection for the remainder of the year and then they will pony up the measly $75 from then on. Once one person has to pay the full price then others will not want to pay and will get the coverage.

According to thier county a few of the depts. charge $500 if you are not a subscriber and they come out to your emergency, but at least 50% of those people refuse to pay the bill and the FD does not have any legal means of collecting.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In reference to all these statements about providing fire protection, what would happen here in Westchester if let's say there was an area that was not in a city, village or fire protection district. Would the closest fire department be obligated to respond if the location was not in their district? Let's say it was an area of 50+ homes and they were not paying any fire taxes to any department of fire district. Would those home owners be entitled to fire protection from a fire department near their homes?????

I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

State law does not require a response to a location outside your district, unless they have a contract to cover it.

How about this, a property owner wants to build a single family house on an Island. Once built he will be paying city tax. The FD does not have a fire boat and no way of responding (particularly during the winter) to provide fire or EMS. Both zoning and the building code require that he provides the FD with access. The owner threatens legal action if not allowed to build on his property. He agrees to sign legal documents acknowledging that the FD may attempt to respond, but cannot insure that they will be able to if allowed to build.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now my question is what does $75/year get you in fire protection?

A volunteer FD with 17 members. 5 have been trained too ff1, the rest have no training (the county proposal is within 5 years they should all have ff1 and it has been proposed (but not approved) that they will have to train at least 4 hours per month.

They are very experienced since they respond to 56 calls per year (25 rural & 31 in town)

If they become part of a county FD and drop the fees, it is suggested that their total budget should be set at $60,000/yr

[bigrig77 95]

According to thier county a few of the depts. charge $500 if you are not a subscriber and they come out to your emergency, but at least 50% of those people refuse to pay the bill and the FD does not have any legal means of collecting.

Could they apply it to the house's taxes? I would think that if the residents agree to the $500 payment then the County could apply it somehow. I know the fire service is not going to be collecting fee's but who do the home owners make these checks out too?

[antiquefirelt 994]

I find it interesting to read some of your indignations on how this happens. Subscription fire services are not totally uncommon and kinda meet the user fee structure so many places are heading now given the economy.

If you believe it is the municipality's responsibility to provide fire protection (and I'd agree),to what level does this requirement measure up to? Minimum response times? Minimum staffing? Minimum training levels? On one hand we say the taxpayers have the ultimate say (and they do)but then "we" look on with shock at the system they have in place in their area?

If you're taking the taxpayers money and advertising a service will be provided for that tax, what level of service do you provide?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Could they apply it to the house's taxes? I would think that if the residents agree to the $500 payment then the County could apply it somehow. I know the fire service is not going to be collecting fee's but who do the home owners make these checks out too?

The County can add it to the taxes if the public agrees (and we all know how many people will vote to increase their taxes), but they do not provide the service, the city (who can not legally tax them).

[x1243 141]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101005/pl_yblog_upshot/rural-tennessee-fire-sparks-conservative-ideological-debate

In Obion County, Tenn.

In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

Ouch!!!

[LTNRFD 266]

http://www.wpsdlocal...-104052668.html

The local T.V. news report.

[wraftery 1,275]

Now my question is what does $75/year get you in fire protection?

A volunteer FD with 17 members. 5 have been trained too ff1, the rest have no training (the county proposal is within 5 years they should all have ff1 and it has been proposed (but not approved) that they will have to train at least 4 hours per month.

They are very experienced since they respond to 56 calls per year (25 rural & 31 in town)

If they become part of a county FD and drop the fees, it is suggested that their total budget should be set at $60,000/yr

Fighting fires is different there. The way you protect the exposure is to hook it up to your redneck style 4x4 and move the exposed trailer. They then use the 30 year- old equipment that was collected in places like Westchester to operate on the fire building.

[helicopper 1,050]

In reference to all these statements about providing fire protection, what would happen here in Westchester if let's say there was an area that was not in a city, village or fire protection district. Would the closest fire department be obligated to respond if the location was not in their district? Let's say it was an area of 50+ homes and they were not paying any fire taxes to any department of fire district. Would those home owners be entitled to fire protection from a fire department near their homes?????

I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

I don't believe that there is any part of Westchester that is not in a city, village, or fire protection district. I believe that there is a section of Dutchess County near Beacon that is not within any fire district - there was a thread here about a fire up on that mountain a while back. Maybe someone remembers that and can speak to that issue.

[LTNRFD 266]

I don't believe that there is any part of Westchester that is not in a city, village, or fire protection district. I believe that there is a section of Dutchess County near Beacon that is not within any fire district - there was a thread here about a fire up on that mountain a while back. Maybe someone remembers that and can speak to that issue.

About 30 years ago there was a section, I believe in the Thronwood Fire District that actually wasn't part of their district. If my memory serves me it was call the Asonia development. There were about 50 homes built there and everyone assumed it was in Thronwood's district. As it turn out after the houses were built, sold and occupied it was determined that they were not in Thornwood's district. The fact was that they were not in any one's fire district. Thornwood had a problem responding to calls there and at one point stopped. There was a 10 department call list for 60-control to call and ask if the other departments would respond when there was a call in this section. They had no fire protection and the area departments would not respond. It was not their district and the were not responding on a mutual aid situation. It was a legal/liability issue.

It took a little bit of work but in the end they were put in a district and pay fire taxes to that district.

Maybe some of the old timers from that area can add to this.

[firebuff08 29]

Having read each and every post on this thread and having read all of the background regarding the South Fulton/Obion County situation, it is clear to me that many posters have a serious problem with reading comprehension and a serious problem seeing things in a context other than what the know from their day-to-day experiences.

Lets look at some facts --Obion County is extremely rural. It is 545 square miles of land area -- that is 95 square miles larger than Westchester County. The population of Obion County -- THE ENTIRE COUNTY, including residents of 8 cities is 32,450 people!!! Westchester's population is close to one million people. Attempting to view the situation in Obion County in light of the way things are in Westchester is insane.

In TN, you either live in a City or you live in the unincorporated County. There are NO TOWNS. County Government is extremely limited and County taxes are extremely low. Residents outside the Cities are NOT Taxed for fire protection. Fire Protection is NOT provided. People know that when they build their homes in areas outside City boundaries. That is a major reason why they build there. They don't want to be bothered by government, by other people and they hate paying taxes. They obviously also hate services that are provided by taxes and that is why they freely choose to live without those services, including fire protection.

At some point, the local government officials in the City of South Fulton decided that it would be possible to extend the service of the City's Volunteer Fire Department (a department paid for by the taxpayers of the City of South Fulton through their taxes)to certain residents of Obion County who reside within a reasonable response time to South Fulton. The City government established a Fee of $75 per year for the service it agreed to provide to property owners in unincorporated Obion County. Each property owner in the parts of Obion County, lying outside the city limits of South Fulton, was then free to make a conscious decision to purchase fire protection that they never had previously, for the sum of $75.00 per year or to continue living they way that had forever, without any fire protection at all. In this particular case, the homeowner decided to take his chances and not pay the fee. His decision, freely made. He gambled and lost. Nobody forced him to locate his home in an area that does not have fire protection. He freely chose to do that.

If if were a taxpayer in the City of South Fulton, and the local volunteer fire department, operating on my tax dollars, had chosen to extinguish a fire in a Obion County, for a homeowner who had NOT paid the $75.00 fee, I would be in court the next day to sue the fire department and every member who misappropriated taxpayer financed equipment to fight the fire. It would be an open and shut case. The fire department would lose. Responding outside the City Limits of South Fulton to fight fires in unincorporated Obion County is NOT Mutual Aid because there is no organized fire protection in the unincorporated areas of the county. The fire department has a fiduciary and moral responsibility to those who pay for the service -- the taxpayers of the City of South Fulton and those county residents who have entered into individual contracts for department service. They would be violating that fiduciary and moral responsibility if they extinguished a fire for someone who freely chose NOT to avail himself of that service.

Why is it so hard for so many to understand this concept.

[JetPhoto 626]

I don't believe that there is any part of Westchester that is not in a city, village, or fire protection district. I believe that there is a section of Dutchess County near Beacon that is not within any fire district - there was a thread here about a fire up on that mountain a while back. Maybe someone remembers that and can speak to that issue.

Yes you are correct. There was a house built a couple years ago and one being built right now along with communication buildings for cell towers on Mt Beacon that are not in a fire district. They are in an area covered by the NYS forest rangers and they will only respond if the trees catch fire.

These residents were warned that there is no fire protection. The city of Beacon line is close to the residents but because they are not within city proper they have no duty to respond. The 2 closest departments Glenham & Dutchess Junction do not want anything to do with these structures. They would have to travel about 5 miles thru the city so about 8 - 10 minutes and those departments do not have structural apparatus to respond to those locations.

So in the event they have a fire they are SOL. If they need a cop or an ambulance though they will get them because those agencies are not in a special district.

So I am guessing these people were rich enough to build the houses without a mortgage which would require fire protection.

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I did read the department would respond to someones fire if they did not pay if a person was trapped but would not extinguish the fire.

[abaduck 123]

Lets look at some facts --Obion County is extremely rural. It is 545 square miles of land area -- that is 95 square miles larger than Westchester County. The population of Obion County -- THE ENTIRE COUNTY, including residents of 8 cities is 32,450 people!!! Westchester's population is close to one million people. Attempting to view the situation in Obion County in light of the way things are in Westchester is insane.

Well here's some more facts. I was born and raised in the Scottish Highlands. Fire protection there is provided by the Highlands & Islands Fire & Rescue Service. The main city, Inverness, has a population of around 50,000. The remaining 300,000 population is spread over 12,000 square miles of mainland, mountains, and dozens of Islands, big and small, more like Alaska than rural Tennessee!

Now a lot of the area won't get a response within 8 minutes, but a good percentage will, and they ALL have fire protection. See: http://www.hifrs.org/Home/About-Us

All UK fire protection is organised at the county or even regional level; there ARE no town, city, or village fire departments or fire districts. Oh and property taxes? Low - I have a small house up there and pay around $800 a year. Most of the cost of fire protection is paid from the equivalent of state & federal grants, because it's a basic government service - in a civilized country every citizen has fire protection.

A serious question: are there areas in the USA where police will not respond to reports of a crime, because no law enforcement organization covers them?

Another serious question: what happens to non-residents of a rural county such as we're discussing? Would no-one respond to a MVF if it happened to a visitor passing through, who hadn't paid their $75? Or extricate a non-resident involved in an MVA?

I'm still astonished I'm having to ask such questions.

Edited October 6, 2010 by abaduck

[antiquefirelt 994]

Well here's some more facts. I was born and raised in the Scottish Highlands. Fire protection there is provided by the Highlands & Islands Fire & Rescue Service. The main city, Inverness, has a population of around 50,000. The remaining 300,000 population is spread over 12,000 square miles of mainland, mountains, and dozens of Islands, big and small, more like Alaska than rural Tennessee!

Of all the places we visited in Scotland Inverness was my favorite!

A serious question: are there areas in the USA where police will not respond to reports of a crime, because no law enforcement organization covers them?

No, but the respone time will often not prevent injury or death when it is imminent, so in cases like fire, the response time escapes reality for making a difference. The similarity in this case would be that someone from the State of TN will likely investigate the fire regardless of who's did or did not provide extinguishement.

Another serious question: what happens to non-residents of a rural county such as we're discussing? Would no-one respond to a MVF if it happened to a visitor passing through, who hadn't paid their $75? Or extricate a non-resident involved in an MVA?

I'll go out on a limb and say this has probably happened. The difference is that in life or limb cases the FD would have acted immediately.

Do so many of you not understand that this system was the choice of the taxpayers at some point? None of us are above our taxpayers, regardless of our "duty to act". If you're not employed as a firefighter, you have no duty to act as one, right?

[firebuff08 29]

To abaduck ---- So What! You are comparing apples and oranges. Apparently the residents of the Scottish Highlands have chosen to tax themselves to pay for the fire protection they receive. The residents of Obion County, TN have chosen NOT to tax themselves for fire protection. Again I ask, what is so hard to understand about free people making a free choice to live someplace where they don't have to pay for fire protection and don't expect to receive fire protection unless they freely choose to pay for it? Just for the record, the man whose home burned down has an annual tax bill of $463.00 --Yes Four Hundred Sixty Three Dollars a year in Property taxes to cover all services that are provided by the county. And that is for a house and 34 acres of land. Remember, Fire Protection is NOT one of those services.

And for the record, in Obion County rescue and extrication is NOT generally provided by the fire departments. They have a Countywide, volunteer Rescue Squad that does that. Given the size of the County and the fact that there are only a handful of roads, I am sure it takes them a long time to get to most calls. But no one forced people to live in Obion county. Gee, they could move to Westchester and pay thousands of dollars in taxes for fire protection that in some areas of Westchester is not much better,at least in the daytime when houses have been know to burn to the ground, despite a nearby firehouse filled with the biggest and most expensive fire trucks money can buy (but nobody to staff them). Given the amount of money people in Westchester pay in taxes, they should have the expectation that a full NFPA 1710 response of firefighters and apparatus would be standing by outside their home just in case they have a fire!

[antiquefirelt 994]

The true question here is whether or not a recognized "government" of any level is obligated to ensure the safety of it's citizens? I suspect it should mirror our model of fireground responsibility: If it isn't properly delegated it moves upward until it reaches the top. If the IC doesn't delegate the Safety Officer, the responsibilities lie with him. Similarly, if the township has no fire protection it falls to the town, then to the county, then the state and finally the federal government (the likeliest of scenarios!). This is the way Law Enforcement is. I suspect few crimes escape someone's jurisdiction.

Next, can the recognized governmental entity enter into a contract with a private company to provide fire protection? If so, then must they bill the taxpayers as a tax or allow the private entity to collect their own funds? Can a subscription service be used? How would they be different than the VFD that raises all their money from chicken BBQ's and upon failing to secure enough funds,can't fund fuel, proper apparatus, training, etc?

I'm surprised the insurance and mortgage companies do not require those properties within subscription services to be fully "subscribed" via escrow accounts to protect their investment. It appears that we as a society do not require property fire protection as a basic necessity that every citizen must be protected by, thus allowing the no-subscribe, no-fight-your-fire dept's. One can understand the basic necessity for the FD to let a non-subscribers home burn. In fact I'll bet other non-subscribers are writing out $75 checks as fast as they can.

[antiquefirelt 994]

IAFF General President Harold Schaitberger said, "Professional, career firefighters shouldn't be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go."

How about maps Harry? Should we check maps? If we're closer, shouldn't we just get in our trucks and go?

His simplistic views are typical grandstanding. I know he'd love to dictate to the taxpayers how fire protection will be served up, but he doesn't. In the end many/most of us would be so much better off with fully 1710 complaint career FD's, though few could afford it. Or can we afford not to?

Edited October 6, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[LTNRFD 266]

I'm surprised the insurance and mortgage companies do not require those properties within subscription services to be fully "subscribed" via escrow accounts to protect their investment. It appears that we as a society do not require property fire protection as a basic necessity that every citizen must be protected by, thus allowing the no-subscribe, no-fight-your-fire dept's. One can understand the basic necessity for the FD to let a non-subscribers home burn. In fact I'll bet other non-subscribers are writing out $75 checks as fast as they can.

In reference to the mortgage company. All they require is insurance to replace the structure from fire, storms etc and liability insurance if someone gets hurt. They don't tell you what type of fire protection you must have. Now there is an insurance company somewhere that will sell you insurance even if there is no fire protection for the structure. They most likely put a lot of restrictions on what you can and can not do. Also, they can tell you you must have certain safeguards in place. And let's not forget about the high premiums because the I.S.O. rating will be the worst of all the ratings.

Look at the homes built on the hills in California. Every 5-10 years they burn to the ground from the brush fires. Does that take any one by surprise??? No, they know it will happen, they just don't know when. The mortgage companies still issue mortgages for homes to replace the one's that were destroyed by fire. And the insurance companies pay to replace the burned down house to be built in the same place. No different then the beach houses that get destroyed by storms and the houses that get destroyed by flooding and are all re-built in the same location only to be damaged again. Why is this allowed to happen ?? Because that's where the affected people want to live. The owners know the risks and make the decision to live where they do.

Edited October 6, 2010 by LTNRFD

[abaduck 123]

To abaduck ---- So What! You are comparing apples and oranges. Apparently the residents of the Scottish Highlands have chosen to tax themselves to pay for the fire protection they receive. The residents of Obion County, TN have chosen NOT to tax themselves for fire protection. Again I ask, what is so hard to understand about free people making a free choice to live someplace where they don't have to pay for fire protection and don't expect to receive fire protection unless they freely choose to pay for it? Just for the record, the man whose home burned down has an annual tax bill of $463.00 --Yes Four Hundred Sixty Three Dollars a year in Property taxes to cover all services that are provided by the county. And that is for a house and 34 acres of land. Remember, Fire Protection is NOT one of those services.

Firebuff, I'm comparing a rural area with an even more rural area. And I'm comparing two very different systems. You say that the in the Highlands, people have 'chosen to tax themselves'. That's not correct, the question and the choice doesn't arise. It's *absurd* that people can chose to be without fire service - or so it would be viewed in the UK, and pretty much any other first-world country. To me, it's as basic as police or ambulance. You wouldn't call 911 and ever hear the responses 'I'm sorry, the police won't come - the law isn't enforced in your area, but we hope you'll be OK' or 'I'm sorry, there is no EMS service, but I hope you don't bleed out...'. Why on earth should fire be any different?

I'm sure there are quite a few people who would LIKE to opt-out - for there to be no law enforcement in their areas, other than the law of their own guns. I'm sure there are people who would love to know that their county doesn't provide child protection services, and they can raise their kids as abusively as they like. But that should NOT happen in a civilised country! All these arguments about tax and jurisdictional boundaries and so on are just BS in my view - it's someones responsibility to provide the basic emergency services, or if it isn't it damn well should be.

Look, my politics are basically libertarian - I *like* small government, I like government not overstepping their bounds - but fire, police, and EMS are among the basic essential services EVERY government (at whatever level is dictated by national law) needs to provide for their citizens.

[antiquefirelt 994]

In reference to the mortgage company. All they require is insurance to replace the structure from fire, storms etc and liability insurance if someone gets hurt. They don't tell you what type of fire protection you must have. Now there is an insurance company somewhere that will sell you insurance even if there is no fire protection for the structure. They most likely put a lot of restrictions on what you can and can not do. Also, they can tell you you must have certain safeguards in place. And let's not forget about the high premiums because the I.S.O. rating will be the worst of all the ratings.

Like I said, I'm surprised that those companies insuring properties in this area, would not either require the $75 fee be paid or make up the difference in far higher premiums, as the non-paying subscriber will collect far more that a paying subscriber. No doubt there are companies out there that will insure anything at any risk, for a price. I'd be interested to know what these folks paid in premiums if the insurance company even knew about the subscription style FD response" .

[Bnechis 3,961]

Like I said, I'm surprised that those companies insuring properties in this area, would not either require the $75 fee be paid or make up the difference in far higher premiums, as the non-paying subscriber will collect far more that a paying subscriber. No doubt there are companies out there that will insure anything at any risk, for a price. I'd be interested to know what these folks paid in premiums if the insurance company even knew about the subscription style FD response".

Most insurance companies only ask what is the closest FD and THey look at ISO and find its rating. Based on the lack of hydrants, this area is a 9 with most of it beyond the 5 mile ISO road distance making them a 10. So even if the FD was comming it still is a 10 and the premiums are going to be based on that. Since a 10 indicates no FD....it does not mater to the underwriter, because the risks are the same.

I bet the replacement costs on a used double wide is nothing like what costs are in Westchester.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You wouldn't call 911 and ever hear the responses 'I'm sorry, the police won't come - the law isn't enforced in your area, but we hope you'll be OK' or 'I'm sorry, there is no EMS service, but I hope you don't bleed out...'. Why on earth should fire be any different?

When my inlaws moved from the NY Metro area to a rural farming area, the local sherrif came out to see them on there farm and asked if they had any guns. My father in-law said no and was told then go out and get some. He was told that the response time could be hours and as a working farm they by law could shoot anyone on there land as a poucher and there would be no questions asked. They will come but it will be too late.

We have places in Westchester that have "EMS services" who are not coming either and you will bleed out waiting (so they are basically nonexisting). And they are tax supported (either directly or by billing medicaid/medicare)

[antiquefirelt 994]

Most insurance companies only ask what is the closest FD and THey look at ISO and find its rating. Based on the lack of hydrants, this area is a 9 with most of it beyond the 5 mile ISO road distance making them a 10. So even if the FD was comming it still is a 10 and the premiums are going to be based on that. Since a 10 indicates no FD....it does not mater to the underwriter, because the risks are the same.

I bet the replacement costs on a used double wide is nothing like what costs are in Westchester.

Ah good point, I forgot about the Class 10 rated areas. Replacing the doublewide in TN is likely the same as replacement value of a room and contents in Westchester. I was in Westchester last month and couldn't believe the appraised value of a relative's home! The same house here would be less than 1/3 in value and 5 times less in taxes, for similar services.