F.A.S.T. Response Times

[bad box 371]

The F.A.S.T. needs to be on the scene early in the operation. In this incident, the F.A.S.T. was not even out the door of the firehouse until 23 minutes after dispatch! The F.A.S.T. is cancelled 28 minutes after dispatch and still is not on the scene. Thankfully, they were not needed for their intended function! This type of scenerio is completely unacceptable ... Remember, the F.A.S.T. can't save trapped Firefighters unless they are on the scene.

Date: 00/00/10

Time: 03:55

Location: 507 Anytown Dr.

Frequency: Low Band

Units Operating: Hooterville FD, Mayberry FAST, Deputy Coord.

Weather Conditions:

Description Of Incident: Fire in private dwelling.

Reporters: Vern Boocanan

Writer: Such a fire!

03:58 - Mayberry FAST dispatched.

04:06 - Mayberry FAST re-dispatched.

04:11 - Hooterville Rescue and additional manpower requested to the scene.

04:12 - Mayberry reports crew assembling, will respond soon.

04:12 - Hooterville Rescue Wagon responding.

04:13 - Goober County re-toning Hooterville, Mount Pilot & Muscrat Village VAC for ambulance to fire (and another to a 2nd call in Hooterville).

04:20 - Deputy Coord. on location. FAST not responding still.

04:21 - Mayberry Hose Haulers "FAST" responding.

04:26 - Mayberry FAST cancelled. Battalion 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other returning to the wagon house.

Edited October 2, 2010 by bad box

[JohnnyOV 2]

As an IC, the moment you realize your FAST / RIT isn't coming, get another team. There are no second chances when it comes to re-toning.

If your department has an inherent problem with getting your team out...maybe "Mayberry FD" has had this problem in the past and continues to have it....you should seriously think of removing yourself from the county mutual aid FAST response. Why would you even want that liability on yourself?

[wraftery 1,275]

Some people do not understand the concept of FAST no matter how many times it is explained. FAST is not a team like a dive team or tech rescue team.

It must be established from the time the first people enter a ILDH atosphere. It starts with 2 in 2 out...the 2 out is your FAST team.

A team must be in place throughout the inciident. If you cannot get a FAST team in place for 23 minutes then nobody should be in the building for 23 minutes.

Not my opinion...OSHA's

Edited October 2, 2010 by wraftery

[bad box 371]

As an IC, the moment you realize your FAST / RIT isn't coming, get another team. There are no second chances when it comes to re-toning.

If your department has an inherent problem with getting your team out...maybe "Mayberry FD" has had this problem in the past and continues to have it....you should seriously think of removing yourself from the county mutual aid FAST response. Why would you even want that liability on yourself?

All good points to be considered '712'. I posted this scenario in an attempt to remind incident commanders (And remember, in the volunteer departments this can sometimes be a responding firefighter who has the most time in the department in the absence of an officer) that the presence of a F.A.S.T. crew at the scene of a working fire is essential for the safety of the firefighters who are committed to interior operations should they become trapped, disoriented, injured, ill, etc. The scenario takes place in the middle of the night prior to a regular workday. This has long been a difficult time to get a 'good turnout' of personnel as many or possibly most of the members of volunteer departments are faced with the decision of, "Do I respond and miss work or do I roll over and catch a few more minutes of sleep before I get up, grab a cup of coffee and head for work?" In light of this type of situation, maybe two departments should be toned out simultaneously and automatically for all working fires ... that way even if neither department gets a full crew, both departments can meet at the scene to form a F.A.S.T.

As I have stated in previous discussions, EVERY Firefighter must be trained in F.A.S.T. operations, it should not be a option. If every volunteer firefighter is 'F.A.S.T. certified' it will be that much easier to form up a F.A.S.T. in an acceptable time frame (The sooner, the better).

Stay safe Brothers and Sisters.

[bad box 371]

It starts with 2 in 2 out...the 2 out is your FAST team.

A team must be in place throughout the inciident. If you cannot get a FAST team in place for 23 minutes then nobody should be in the building for 23 minutes.

Not my opinion...OSHA's

This is true, unless there is reason to believe that people may be in the structure. In that situation, a rescue attempt is permitted if it's reasonable to do so. This whole 'two in two out' rule presents a problem due to the misinterpretation by many departments. EXAMPLE: I recently saw a career department near where I live, that stood outside and took no action at what was at the time of their arrival a small 'incipient' fire in a an attic over the garage area of a home with a truss roof. The initial crew of two waited for the second unit of two and a B.C. to arrive. All that needed to be done initially was to force an entry door to the garage and from the relative safety of the doorway, pull a section of ceiling to expose the fire and operate a properly supplied stream from a 1 3/4" hose line for a short time. It probably would have completely extinguished the fire, but even if it didn't, it would have darkened it down and stopped it from spreading. Instead, they took no action until the fire 'took off' and eventually completely involved the attic and vented through the roof. They then put their aerial ladder 65' in the air and flowed 1000 GPM down on top of the still mostly intact roof, down into a neighbor's yard (totally destroying their sod) and once in a while into the hole that was belching fire (not the best way to fight an attic fire for sure!) This department totally destroyed a beautiful six year old home as well as all of the personal belongings of the family because they didn't understand 'two in, two out' and had no idea how to control a fire in an attic with wood trusses. Sadly, this is much more common than most folks in the fire service want to believe. OSHA and NFPA have reached the point where they want to make firefighting inherently safe. We must remember there is a fine line between firefighter safety and being totally ineffective of the fire ground.

Edited October 2, 2010 by bad box

[wraftery 1,275]

This is true, unless there is reason to believe that people may be in the structure. In that situation, a rescue attempt is permitted if it's reasonable to do so.

Agreed. And that's why FAST training is needed for all members, not just a team from far away. It's a simple concept. I don't know why it is widely misunderstood.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Agreed. And that's why FAST training is needed for all members, not just a team from far away. It's a simple concept. I don't know why it is widely misunderstood.

I'm stating 'facts that I dont have exact statistic for, but a majority of all FF removals are made from the initial companies making entry, not the FASTeam. Why shouldn't every FF be trained in FAST techniques? My personal belief is that is should be required, along with survival and FF 2 in the inital firefighter class. A majority of other states mandate that it is. Florida for a fact does it this way as well as I wanted to go through their class, but didn't due to time constraints. They wanted everyone, regardless of whether they were career or volunteer, trained the exact same. Why should there be differences between career training and volly training? Fire doesn't give a crap about who you are or what you do for a living, its all the same beast.

If you have objections to this, then you need to think about the brotherhood you joined. If you don't want the training for yourself, what about for your downed brother that's trapped?

Edited October 2, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[bad box 371]

I'm stating 'facts that I dont have exact statistic for, but a majority of all FF removals are made from the initial companies making entry, not the FASTeam. Why shouldn't every FF be trained in FAST techniques? My personal belief is that is should be required, along with survival and FF 2 in the inital firefighter class. A majority of other states mandate that it is. Florida for a fact does it this way as well as I wanted to go through their class, but didn't due to time constraints. They wanted everyone, regardless of whether they were career or volunteer, trained the exact same. Why should there be differences between career training and volly training? Fire doesn't give a crap about who you are or what you do for a living, its all the same beast.

If you have objections to this, then you need to think about the brotherhood you joined. If you don't want the training for yourself, what about for your downed brother that's trapped?

I believe years ago that an attempt was made to mandate the same training for all Firefighters regardless of whether they were career or volunteer. If my memory serves me correctly, the national volunteer fire council fought against it as they felt it would put too much of a burden upon volunteers due to the amount of time and commitment required for them to be properly trained.

Edited October 2, 2010 by bad box

[Bnechis 3,961]

The scenario takes place in the middle of the night prior to a regular workday. This has long been a difficult time to get a 'good turnout' of personnel as many or possibly most of the members of volunteer departments are faced with the decision of, "Do I respond and miss work or do I roll over and catch a few more minutes of sleep before I get up, grab a cup of coffee and head for work?"

Are you saying that some volunteers actually "pick and choice" there calls? In the past when this was claimed it was denied and claimed that this never happens.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Some people do not understand the concept of FAST no matter how many times it is explained. FAST is not a team like a dive team or tech rescue team.

It must be established from the time the first people enter a ILDH atosphere. It starts with 2 in 2 out...the 2 out is your FAST team.

A team must be in place throughout the inciident. If you cannot get a FAST team in place for 23 minutes then nobody should be in the building for 23 minutes.

Not my opinion...OSHA's

We are the Fire Department. We are above the law, we never have to follow the law........

Maybe if we did there would be fewer losses. Currently at least 3 departments in Westchester have at least 5 or more outstanding written violations from PESH (NYS OSHA) for failing to meet the law. Maybe the Tarrytown incident (which has yet to be given violations) will convince the chiefs and municipal administrators that yes the Fire Department must follow the law.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sadly, this is much more common than most folks in the fire service want to believe. OSHA and NFPA have reached the point where they want to make firefighting inherently safe. We must remember there is a fine line between firefighter safety and being totally ineffective of the fire ground.

Lets spin this around, as you pointed out many depts are so ineffective and so unsafe that OSHA & NFPA have no choise but to attempt to get the fire service to evaluate itself and perform risk/benifit assessments as well as determine what needs to be done to protect the public and ourselves.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I believe years ago that an attempt was made to mandate the same training for all Firefighters regardless of whether they were career or volunteer. If my memory serves me correctly, the national volunteer fire council fought against it as they felt it would put too much of a burden upon volunteers due to the amount of time and commitment required for them to be properly trained.

It was not NVFC it was FASNY. Many states require the same training. But FASNY says it is to hard on volunteers in NYS. Even NYS FF1 is 20-30 hours less than the NFPA standard its based on. Because its to many hours. Infact when it 1st came out they required the 15 hours of Hazmat Ops to be covered in no more than 6 hours. Since NYS Law requires more than that for all firefighters BEFORE they are allowed to respond to any calls OFPC added more time to it. A good friend of mine went thru the NYS training and found when he moved that 2 other states would not count any of his NYS FF1 or FF2 because it was substandard.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Are you saying that some volunteers actually "pick and choice" there calls? In the past when this was claimed it was denied and claimed that this never happens.

Anybody who claims that they and or anybody do not pick and choose calls is flat out lying.

[bad box 371]

Anybody who claims that they and or anybody do not pick and choose calls is flat out lying.

Common sense dictates that when a volunteer firefighter's pager goes off in the middle of the night and he / she is due to work in the morning that a choice has to be made. For responsible, adult types the only choice is to not respond and go to work. Volunteer responses do not pay the bills and business owners, supervisors, etc. are responsible for making sure that employees report to work on time and provide a full day of work for a day's pay.

[wraftery 1,275]

I believe years ago that an attempt was made to mandate the same training for all Firefighters regardless of whether they were career or volunteer. If my memory serves me correctly, the national volunteer fire council fought against it as they felt it would put too much of a burden upon volunteers due to the amount of time and commitment required for them to be properly trained.

Death of a member is kind of a burden,too. Your conscience has to carry heavy load if he could have been saved. The training was offered but not taken.

[bad box 371]

Death of a member is kind of a burden,too. Your conscience has to carry heavy load if he could have been saved. The training was offered but not taken.

You are preaching to the choir in my case.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Seems to me that Hooterville FD should stop relying on outside agencies to do their FAST work for them. You have to start your own FAST, calling for a department 3 towns away has never seemed like a good idea to me. I wholeheartedly agree with Wraftery. Start your own FAST, call for another department to fill in, and work from there. But you can't wait 20 minutes for a FAST.

[Remember585 815]

1. If this "hypothetical" incident is actually one that occurred the other night in Mahopac, they did in fact make a grab (or whatever people call it these days), so in the eyes of OSHA they would be "exempt" from having to keep the "Two out."

2. If anyone thinks having just "Two Out" is sufficient, you're out of your friggin mind. We have done drills as simple as dragging a guy across the engine room floor with no smoke, no fire, no obstructions - and it can tire you out fast.

3. Any Chief - not an IC - but a Chief who knows that their primary Mutual Aid (FAST, Truck, whatever) consistently struggles, then maybe it's time to use someone else. I'm not poking jabs at anyone in this scenario, but wake up guys. I am like almost every Chief, Officer and Firefighter on here that is very, very proud of my department. But if we can't produce what is asked of us, I'd rather say we can't do it then do it half-assed.

4. The FF I program has to include Survival & FAST. Stop saying it's a burden on people. Any firefighter that is naive enough to say they're interior but won't learn how to help one of your own should be pushed to the exterior list. If a guy isn't going to help one of his own or thinks it can't happen, they're not a team player and can find another team to play for.

5. Calling two FASTs might be the answer if that's what it takes to give an IC the people on scene he feels is needed. But until that request is made, the one team that is requested needs to man up after a few minutes and say they can't cover their call. We had to do it once, and I anticipate it will happen again at some point, but we have our own policy in place that says if we have less manpower than we need, we will advise the IC and see if he wants us, someone else or a combination of both. We're not too proud to say we can't cover a request. On the opposite side of the coin, our primary FAST is fantastic, they always provide enough manpower in a timely manner. Our backup FASTs have also been good to us over the years (thanks!).

6. Bnechis - the remark that volunteers pick and choose calls is not a secret. But the same can be said for paid personnel in various departments as well. I'm not going to turn this into a debate, but I know of plenty examples but this is neither the place nor the time for it. It's human nature to hear a call at 3AM when it's pouring out and say "this sucks," but that call has to be answered whether we like it or not.

[Bnechis 3,961]

2. If anyone thinks having just "Two Out" is sufficient, you're out of your friggin mind. We have done drills as simple as dragging a guy across the engine room floor with no smoke, no fire, no obstructions - and it can tire you out fast.

Thats why NFPA 1710 splits it into 2; an IRIC (2 man Initial Rapid intervention Crew) on all alarms (this covers your 2 out) and a full RIC (minimum of 4 members) must be dispatched along with a safety officer upon determination that the call is a working fire. Studies have shown 8 ff's are truly needed.

3. Any Chief - not an IC - but a Chief who knows that their primary Mutual Aid (FAST, Truck, whatever) consistently struggles, then maybe it's time to use someone else. I'm not poking jabs at anyone in this scenario, but wake up guys. I am like almost every Chief, Officer and Firefighter on here that is very, very proud of my department. But if we can't produce what is asked of us, I'd rather say we can't do it then do it half-assed.

The bigger problem is how many depts. Volunteer, Combination & Career are understaffed and can not even provide the numbers of interior FF's needed to start to deal with a "simple" fire in a small residential home (without a basement)? If you are sending less than 6 firefighters (4 interior minimum) to be a "2 in", "2 out", 1 Pump operator & 1 IC then you are not a fire department. By law you are at best an incipient fire brigade. Based on this ISO announced they will be changing their standards this fall/winter. If you average less than 6 responders they will automatically change your rating to an ISO 9, since in the eyes of the law you can not go into a burning structure to save property.

If you are sending less than 16 members (with at least 11 interior) you are not meeting NFPA 1710 (and while you may not be required to, look at the diagram, because thats what evelution 1710 wants you to be able to do). Whats interesting is there numbers are almost the same as what ISO has been saying for almost 100 years and the same as the governmental standards in Germany, France, Great Britton, etc. Their must be something to it.

4. The FF I program has to include Survival & FAST. Stop saying it's a burden on people. Any firefighter that is naive enough to say they're interior but won't learn how to help one of your own should be pushed to the exterior list. If a guy isn't going to help one of his own or thinks it can't happen, they're not a team player and can find another team to play for.

Agreed, well said.

6. Bnechis - the remark that volunteers pick and choose calls is not a secret. But the same can be said for paid personnel in various departments as well. I'm not going to turn this into a debate, but I know of plenty examples but this is neither the place nor the time for it. It's human nature to hear a call at 3AM when it's pouring out and say "this sucks," but that call has to be answered whether we like it or not.

My intent was not to turn it into one. Of course we all know it. As a volunteer I had to go to work. My point was in many threads here it has been denied.

[Remember585 815]

It will be interesting to see how the ISO scoring will affect some departments around here.

[wraftery 1,275]

Remember that number is calculated on an 8 minute response time from the initial call. It is achievable in southern Westchester if things like automatic mutual aid consolidation are utilized. Probably difficult to achieve further north. That's 8 minutes from initial call, not from when an IC gets there, thinks about it...thinks about it a little more...asks a couple of guys what they think...and then calls.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

BTW: No offense to my brothers who are so diligent about this ISO info, but Bad Box started the thread about FAST response, can we get back to the subject? It's a subject near and dear to all all of us.

Thanks

[JM15 386]

Your right EFDCapt. On the other side of the coin what about departments that call for a FAST team then utilize them as manpower on scene and not for FAST duties.... AKA "Putting the FAST to work"

[wraftery 1,275]

BTW: No offense to my brothers who are so diligent about this ISO info, but Bad Box started the thread about FAST response, can we get back to the subject? It's a subject near and dear to all all of us.

Thanks

Now take heed. That was the voice of an experienced IC talking. Did you notice that the troops were losing focus on the thread? Did you notice how efdcapt115 politely told them to refocus?

If he has to say it again, it will be an order.

Way to go, GG!

(and I agree...rotating FAST teams is not a good move)

[x129K 1,393]

Call another department/team????? Like they are behind every tree! LOL

Remember in some areas, like mine, there are NO FASTeams to call...at least none that would not have to travel a good distance to the scene....the closest is 2 towns away - but travel distance is at least 20 minutes, more depending on where in ourr district the fire may be...I am not aware of any Putnam teams that may be closer to our station 2 area...

I presented the idea of having a "Batallion FASTeam" with members of different departments in a specific area/batallion who are trained in FAST, respond seperatly, with no apparatus to the scene, and gather what tools they may need form the departments on scene...NO, not a perfect system, but with no teams in place already, can beggars be choosers?

I was told that no department would want to buy and store the tools and gear needed, and even then, there would be no guarantee they would even be on scene..which is very true and a valid point. My point was - get the manpower there...get the basic tools needed...at least you have guys on scene that can make a trained attempt at FF rescue..

[Bnechis 3,961]

I was told that no department would want to buy and store the tools and gear needed, and even then, there would be no guarantee they would even be on scene..which is very true and a valid point.

It very disturbing that any fire department would not want to buy fire fighting equipment to save its own members.

Its also sad that the members are blind to this issue.

[bad box 371]

It very disturbing that any fire department would not want to buy fire fighting equipment to save its own members.

Its also sad that the members are blind to this issue.

I started this thread to once again alert members of the volunteer sector that having a dedicated F.A.S.T. on-scene promptly in the early stages of an interior fire attack is essential for firefighter safety.

I also said earlier in this thread that:

"As I have stated in previous discussions, EVERY Firefighter must be trained in F.A.S.T. operations, it should not be a option. If every volunteer firefighter is 'F.A.S.T. certified' it will be that much easier to form up a F.A.S.T. in an acceptable time frame (The sooner, the better)."

It's most unfortunate, but as I follow the postings I get the feeling that many still don't get the concept that F.A.S.T. IS NOT intended to be a 'special team'. F.A.S.T. is a basic firefighter skill just like hose line selection and Vent - Enter - Search. The mentality of " what we're doing is good enough' or 'we are volunteers, we don't have the time available to train everyone' is unacceptable. There are many functions that members of the the volunteer fire service put untold number of hours into that are nowhere near as important as firefighter safety. Until members of the volunteer fire service truly embrace the fact that firefighter safety and public safety must be THE priority, nothing will change.

Stay safe.

Edited October 7, 2010 by bad box

[Guest 29-Indigo]

It seems as though "Mayberry" was at it again this morning. 60 Control dispatched them Mutual Aid to "Panda Valley," after 10 minutes the paid firefighter got on the air and asked for tones, as nobody had called in. Almost ten more minutes later, 60 Control advised "Mayberry" that their "FAST" can cancel.

Almost 20 Minutes and no response? Are you kidding?

[bad box 371]

It seems as though "Mayberry" was at it again this morning. 60 Control dispatched them Mutual Aid to "Panda Valley," after 10 minutes the paid firefighter got on the air and asked for tones, as nobody had called in. Almost ten more minutes later, 60 Control advised "Mayberry" that their "FAST" can cancel.

Almost 20 Minutes and no response? Are you kidding?

Hopefully someday, places like 'Mount Pilot' and 'Petticoat Junction' will become full time career departments. Then we will begin to see response times improve significantly...

[firebuff860 54]

Hopefully someday, places like 'Mount Pilot' and 'Petticoat Junction' will become full time career departments. Then we will begin to see response times improve significantly...

Hiring full time career fire dept's does not solve the problem, unless properly staffed. NYC based on radio traffic rolls FAS teams to work and has incoming units take over responsibility. Other than maybe Yonkers, there is no FD in Westchester that can handle a multi alarm fire with a FAS team without calling for outside help. Response times, without properly trained personnel are useless. Hillbilly FD can respond in 1 minute with 2 and 1 quicker than cities, but who is manning the rigs? Career or volunteer it is about training and having enough manpower on scene promptly.