TSA and 'Suspicious Photographers'

[Truck4 48]

When photographing airplanes, be sure to wear a hooded sweatshirt:

http://nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2010/09/poster.html

[firedude 985]

I am not a huge fan of this poster, neither are a lot of other aviation enthusiasts. I know they are just trying to keep everyone safe but I just think the TSA is sterotyping here. Not everyone taking photos of airplanes is a terrorists. Plane Spotting is a hobby. here are some websites where people share these types of photos...

Airliners.net

Jetphotos.net

Here is some specific to the NY Area... NYCAviation

Edited September 29, 2010 by firedude

[wraftery 1,275]

I know this is an imposition on your hobby (a legitimate hobby that is not a threat). However, I believe the saying IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING.

It may be a pain when a cop comes along to question you because somebody called it in. But the bad guys are still out to get us. Had Muhammad Atta been questioned about his seemingly innocent flying lessons (and his buddies too), maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

My advice is "Suck it up, we're at war. Be nice to the cop and the tattletale, they are just doing what they have to do."

While you are out there on a photo shoot, if you see something...say something...and take pictures... they are good evidence.

[firedude 985]

I know this is an imposition on your hobby (a legitimate hobby that is not a threat). However, I believe the saying IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING.

It may be a pain when a cop comes along to question you because somebody called it in. But the bad guys are still out to get us. Had Muhammad Atta been questioned about his seemingly innocent flying lessons (and his buddies too), maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

My advice is "Suck it up, we're at war. Be nice to the cop and the tattletale, they are just doing what they have to do."

While you are out there on a photo shoot, if you see something...say something...and take pictures... they are good evidence.

I too believe in the phrase "see something, say something". But there are a lot of cops who do not understand the hobby. In my opinion, they are not given enough training. I have seen numerous vehicles pull up to a fence, at the airport, and just stop and watch planes for 30 minutes. I am not going to call everytime I see it. When I am flying, I see people taking photos of the airplane I am in, and I just wave. I have no problem that the general public calls and reports this type of suspicious activity at all. Quite frankly, I would be woried if the police never came to visit me, while I was taking photos.

I know there are some county cops on the forum and I have a question for them. Do the county cops at HPN recieve special training specific to airports. Is it from the TSA or just internal? Do these cops only work at HPN or are do they do regular parkway patrol too. Thanks in advance.

Edited September 29, 2010 by firedude

[JetPhoto 626]

[quote

Jetphotos.net

I wounder if I can get that website....yea imagine that!

[Anesti 329]

So when is the poster with the fire truck instead of a plane going to appear??

[firedude 985]

So when is the poster with the fire truck instead of a plane going to appear??

when pigs fly

[helicopper 1,050]

when pigs fly

Some of us do!

[helicopper 1,050]

I know there are some county cops on the forum and I have a question for them. Do the county cops at HPN recieve special training specific to airports. Is it from the TSA or just internal? Do these cops only work at HPN or are do they do regular parkway patrol too. Thanks in advance.

Don't be surprised if you don't get an overwhelming response to this question. I don't think many of us are going to be inclined to get into specifics of security training at the airport.

Suffice it to say that, yes, cops at the airport receive substantial specialized training relating to the airport environment.

[Bnechis 3,961]

when pigs fly

[JBE 328]

So when is the poster with the fire truck instead of a plane going to appear??

You bring up a good point. I have heard stories where people have been turned away at firehouses because of "security reasons". It's not out of the realm of possibility. For many of us, it's just a hobby. This is why when I go out and about, I make sure to introduce myself, show my ID/Shield as needed, and explain myself before I ask about pictures. Granted I know one does not have that luxury when photographing aircraft, but what the heck.

[Goose 188]

the government tends to walk a fine line with these sorts of things...they could justify just about anything under the auspices of "keeping you safe."

[FDNY 10-75 640]

So when is the poster with the fire truck instead of a plane going to appear??

From what I understand a member of the Fire Bell Club was arrested, had his camera and Bell Club shield confiscated by the NYPD for photographing apparatus at a fire.

Edited September 30, 2010 by FDNY 10-75

[ny10570 745]

You can get better and more detailed specs and photos of commercial planes from manufacturers and military aircraft are well documented by the government. As long as its plainly visible I don't see the point in restricting photographer access.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Perfect example of keeping your eyes open...

Earlier this week/last week, I heard on my scanner a PD unit get polled for, a suspicious person walking with what appeared to be a long gun (shotgun or rifle) either on, or near the Dutchess County Airport property. Shortly thereafter, DC911 updated responding units, after communications with the Airport Tower, this was an employee trying to keep deer off of/away from the runways.

A little different from photographing aircraft, but someone saw something, and said something. I am just glad it turned out for the better.

[helicopper 1,050]

You can get better and more detailed specs and photos of commercial planes from manufacturers and military aircraft are well documented by the government. As long as its plainly visible I don't see the point in restricting photographer access.

A little perspective here guys. Look at the picture on the poster, it's supposed to make you think suspicious so when you see something like it you say something. If there's a guy standing at the airport fence with his kid taking pictures of mommy's airplane taking off, it's a vastly different perspective.

Wear all black with your hood pulled up over your head and you probably will get more attention. Why is that such a bad thing?

Nobody is saying you can't take photos at an airport - unless it is a security area - but you also shouldn't expect to be ignored while doing so.

I am not a huge fan of this poster, neither are a lot of other aviation enthusiasts. I know they are just trying to keep everyone safe but I just think the TSA is sterotyping here. Not everyone taking photos of airplanes is a terrorists. Plane Spotting is a hobby. here are some websites where people share these types of photos...

They're not stereotyping photographers, they're trying to highlight suspicious behavior. In this day and age, as we've already discussed here ad nauseum, there is much greater concern over this subject because we've documented numerous instances of potential terrorists conducting surveillance and counter-surveillance here and abroad. We can't just ignore photographers anymore.

[calhobs 110]

Keep in mind if your taking pictures of aircraft at the any airport, does not mean your going to get arrested or lose your equipment, but you can be questioned on why your in a certian area and such.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

In this day and age, as we've already discussed here ad nauseum, there is much greater concern over this subject because we've documented numerous instances of potential terrorists conducting surveillance and counter-surveillance here and abroad. We can't just ignore photographers anymore.

I would say if the guy is carrying a prayer mat, and consistently turns toward Mecca, kneels and prays, bowing, head to the ground, then stands up and starts filming airports or infrastructure; it's probably a good idea to contact LE.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with "profiling."

BUT

A big problem we face are guys like Adam Kagnan or whatever his name is, the joker that does the propaganda videos for the terrorists. "Normal" looking Americans are joining the ranks of the enemy. This makes virtually anybody, no matter what you look like, potentially suspect.

It's a shame that's the way it is. But...that's the way it is.

[Oswegowind 17]

Some of the replies on here are just personal rants. We've gotten the various calls for people taking pictures of bridges, etc. I don't recall us ever catching anyone in the act, but none of those bridges have been touched, so maybe they weren't photographing the bridges. However, we send someone to investigate. Investigation is not apprehension nor prosecution, it is a simple inquiry and if the preliminary investigation warrants further, those trained professionals will do so. I don't personally feel that a picture of an aircraft can be used for anything in particular, what significance does it have? What can be learned form a picture of the plane that you can't find on the corporate website, etc. It doesn't exactly make any sense. Now, in Formula 1 racing, a picture could lead one team to understand the technological developments of another team. This leads to better competition. But a picture or a fire apparatus, police car, or an airplane is a picture. I don't think they are nearly the same as pictures of a compound, like Indian Point. This is just high profile advertising to encourage people to feel the government is doing all it can do to prevent incidents from happening.

Oh, and why would a private organization called fire bell or whatever have you, develop its own shields? That is just ridiculous, there is zero authority behind it, and displaying it is falsifying what you truly are. It doesn't carry any weight what-so-ever. Maybe that is why the person was arrested, maybe they were

misrepresenting themselves as some authority and wouldn't back down.

As for the government seizing cameras and film (or digital images), it is nothing new. My mother went to Hawaii on her honeymoon back in the 70's. She took some photos of some navy equipment until they confiscated her camera. Evidently it was new technology that must've been secret. That is a different story!

Oh and please stop with the whole "prayer mat" theory. These people (terrorists) are trained to fit in. I highly doubt that they are going to make it obvious that they are fanatics, as well, I don't think they're gonna drop and prayer while on assignment, that's just stupid. It is not only muslims that have blown things up ya know.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Oswegowind

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Oh and please stop with the whole "prayer mat" theory. These people (terrorists) are trained to fit in. I highly doubt that they are going to make it obvious that they are fanatics, as well, I don't think they're gonna drop and prayer while on assignment, that's just stupid. It is not only muslims that have blown things up ya know.

Maybe you should have read my whole post?

[Oswegowind 17]

Maybe you should have read my whole post?

I'm sorry, but I learned anything after "but" is b.s. If you didn't mean anything by it, don't post it. Not just people that work in emergency services read this site. I understand what you are saying, but any average person reads the first line of a advertisement or story and that is all. If you don't believe me, look at all the problems with home loans with APR where people didn't read their whole contract. Just the part that got their attention.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I'm sorry, but I learned anything after "but" is b.s. If you didn't mean anything by it, don't post it. Not just people that work in emergency services read this site. I understand what you are saying, but any average person reads the first line of a advertisement or story and that is all. If you don't believe me, look at all the problems with home loans with APR where people didn't read their whole contract. Just the part that got their attention.

I disagree.

[x635 4,066]

It doesn't matter what religion you are. We have militias in this country that look like ordinary Americans that pose FAR more of a threat to us right now. Also, with our border security at both Mexico AND Canada allowing for anything and everything to be smuggled through, a photo isn't going to be a tool in a terrorist attack. If they want to do something, they will get it done.

As far as harrasing photographers, if you're on sensitive property and want specific shots, it's best to get in touch with the airport and let them know what you want to photograph, and when you'll be there. I've been through airside/landside training, and the primary threat is breach of the perimiter.

Cameras nowadays are in every electronic device, and come in every size. If someone wants a photo of something, chances are high they'll get it.

As far as the government, they are getting carried away with "Homeland Security". They have tunnel vision bad.

[191SH 4]

I go to the County airport with my kids to watch the planed on a regular basis and out of all the times I have been there many times the County police have driven by buy NEVER once asked me what I was doing. There presence is known and thats all they can do. I am comfortable with our security but I also think we need to stop being paranoid.

[helicopper 1,050]

I go to the County airport with my kids to watch the planed on a regular basis and out of all the times I have been there many times the County police have driven by buy NEVER once asked me what I was doing. There presence is known and thats all they can do. I am comfortable with our security but I also think we need to stop being paranoid.

Paranoid? Have we already forgotten the lessons learned after 9/11?

We need to be active participants in our security. The passive nature of our security in the past failed us and we can't allow complacency or apathy to drive it in the future.

[RescueKujo 130]

I go to the County airport with my kids to watch the planed on a regular basis and out of all the times I have been there many times the County police have driven by buy NEVER once asked me what I was doing. There presence is known and thats all they can do. I am comfortable with our security but I also think we need to stop being paranoid.

and that type of comment is exactly why terrorist groups continue to attack us. They watch and know that the American public stays vigilant and angry for only a certain period of time, then gets complacient as they believe "nothing" has happened since the last attack. The Government is not going to announce every time one of their agencies thwarts another terrorist attack. The ones that get publicized are like the failed aircraft bombings by the "shoe" bomber and the "underwear" bomber, where a number of citizens witnessed the situation and it will hit the news.

there are many "homegrown" groups wanting to violently take down the United States. It's not just turban wearing prayer mat sitting Muslims. They are one of many groups, so when someone starts talking about terrorist attacks on US soil, they should not be the only ones identified.

[dwcfireman 656]

Ok...It seems like there are a lot of questions being raised about security at airports. To sum it up for you, security is necessary in all aspects so that the US and us Americans do not experience another 9/11. I know you all understand that, and I'm well aware that everybody is paying attention to the issues. HPN happens to be a great example of why higher security is needed. Being a commercial service airport, the obvious need for the TSA and screeners, never mind the presence of law enforcement, is necessary due to the volume of passengers boarding substantially large aircraft. But you have to remember that HPN is also a general aviation (GA) airport. There's roughly 400 based aircraft, including everything from small single engine aircraft, light helicopters, etc. all the way up to triple engine business jets. Since 9/11 there has been an extreme emphasis on the security of the nation's commercial air service, but it's just now that the program is kicking into full gear for the general aviation public. This is why pilots and owners of based aircraft need to have airport issued identification to gain access to the ramp to use their aircraft. Without delving into any specifics, airports nationwide are vamping up security on GA ramps and pushing those users to be as vigilant as possible.

As for enthusiasts who like to sit and observe aircraft taking off and landing, you're really not supposed to be near the fence line. If you are seen near the fence line, WCPD will ask you to move along. If you do want to watch aircraft move about and do what they do, my suggestion is to use the observation deck on the third level of the airport terminal. It is a public viewing area that you can watch aircraft from at a safe and secure distance. Does it require parking in the garage and paying the ridiculously high rates? Yes, but there is no alternative to that. There is no place off site that you can just stop and watch aircraft take off and land, and anywhere near the fence is definitely not the place to do it. That includes being on public roads.

Now, for the poster...I know it looks bad and gives photographers a bad rep, but come on! The idea of that image is to make you keep your eyes open for something that doesn't belong. There's a poster in my office that says "Complacency is Security's Worst Enemy" showing a man in a black trench coat and hat. The whole idea is to be vigilant and keep your eyes peeled for something out of the ordinary. This, too, is from the TSA, and the point they're getting across is just to be vigilant. "If you see something, say something" is the simplest of these slogans.

And just a final note...I don't know about you, but I don't want to see another terror attack on US soil!

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I'm sorry, but I learned anything after "but" is b.s. If you didn't mean anything by it, don't post it.

So are you making a statement, or contradicting yourself??

[abaduck 123]

I'll bite, as this is an issue I feel strongly about.

It's been a huge issue in the UK, with a lot of coverage in the press:

http://www.facebook....st/128534046017

The British government produced an infamous poster, which inevitably produced a large variety of satirical responses. This one is from the journalists & photographers unions:

Where I have a big problem is in cases (and there are far too many being reported for it to be coincidence) where cops, and private security guards, give photographers a seriously hard time - claiming that there are non-existent laws preventing photography of certain subjects, or claiming powers they don't have, to delete photographs, make arrests, or confiscate equipment. I personally know someone who was threatened with immediate arrest for the 'crime' of taking photographs of Metro North trains from a public street, by an MTA Police sergeant, no less. This kind of thing has become far too common, and it's a real issue. The vast, vast majority of people taking such photos will be good guys like me, extra eyes and ears for suspicious activity, supportive of your work as LEOs - so treat us with respect if you speak to us, and don't threaten us, invent laws that don't exist, or invent powers you don't have, k?

Edited October 1, 2010 by abaduck

[ComputerGuy 3]

Oh, and why would a private organization called fire bell or whatever have you, develop its own shields? That is just ridiculous, there is zero authority behind it, and displaying it is falsifying what you truly are. It doesn't carry any weight what-so-ever.

Not to get to off topic, but according to Fire Bell's web site the shields were original issued by FDNY, giving them access to fire ground. I assume this is no longer the case, anybody know?