Significant Cheating by FBI Agents on Exam

[RWC130 594]

Report: Significant cheating by FBI agents on exam

By MARK SHERMAN

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Justice Department investigation has found that FBI agents, including several supervisors, cheated on an important test covering the bureau's policies for conducting surveillance on Americans.

Justice Department Inspector General Glenn Fine said Monday that his limited review of allegations that agents improperly took the open-book test together or had access to an answer sheet has turned up "significant abuses and cheating.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_CHEATING?SITE=INEVA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[helicopper 1,050]

"Cheated" on an open book test? Slow news day?

[Truck4 48]

"Cheated" on an open book test? Slow news day?

Kind of like that scene in Spies Like Us.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

"Cheated" on an open book test? Slow news day?

Terrifying is more accurate. Don't ignore what this cheating was on, it was on a test regarding the limits the FBI can lawfully surveil a private citizen accused of no wrong doing. One can be lead to believe that the agents in question do not truly know the extents of my rights and the limits of theirs, thus setting the stage for potential violation of key sections of the 4th Amendment.

This is much bigger news then LILO if you ask me, the FBI and the Justice Department

When the US Department of Justice Inspector General, US Federal Bureau of Investigation Director, Congress and the ACLU have a problem with what these agents are doing and aspects of FBI culture then maybe its not just a "slow news day".

Edited September 29, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[helicopper 1,050]

Kind of like that scene in Spies Like Us.

Thought the same thing...

[ny10570 745]

Terrifying is more accurate. Don't ignore what this cheating was on, it was on a test regarding the limits the FBI can lawfully surveil a private citizen accused of no wrong doing. One can be lead to believe that the agents in question do not truly know the extents of my rights and the limits of theirs, thus setting the stage for potential violation of key sections of the 4th Amendment.

This is much bigger news then LILO if you ask me, the FBI and the Justice Department

When the US Department of Justice Inspector General, US Federal Bureau of Investigation Director, Congress and the ACLU have a problem with what these agents are doing and aspects of FBI culture then maybe its not just a "slow news day".

I wouldn't say terrifying. Yes their apparent lack of knowledge could lead to problems in court and with prosecution, but there is no cataclysm on the horizon. These agents will continue doing their job likely making no fewer or no more mistakes than they currently do.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I wouldn't say terrifying. Yes their apparent lack of knowledge could lead to problems in court and with prosecution, but there is no cataclysm on the horizon. These agents will continue doing their job likely making no fewer or no more mistakes than they currently do.

If they are willing to cheat/lie on a test what else are they willing to cheat on/lie about?

Edited September 29, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Just a guy 493]

If they are willing to cheat/lie on a test what else are they willing to cheat on/lie about?

It was an Open Book Test - What part of that escapes you ? Why are you taking something like this and right away saying " It's terrifying " and " What about my rights " Do you have anything to hide ? Are you engaged in any anti American or pro terrorist organizations? No I didn't think so .. so I don't really think you have anything to worry about.

Is this a bad thing to have happen ? Yes of course it is .. will affect the great job the FBI does everyday to keep up safe ? No of course it won't. In the post 9/11 world the 4th amendment can't be hidden behind. We all have to understand that in the name of national security, there are certain things that the government may have to do to keep us safe, I say go for it, do what you have to do.

Thank you for taking the time to read my rant, from time to time some things just need to be said !!! :angry:

[Remember585 815]

Cutting corners is the American way!

"Will you hold my wallet for me while I take the test, please? There's a thousand dollars in there - or maybe there isn't. Know what I mean?" - Fitz-Hume

[Alpinerunner 61]

It was an Open Book Test - What part of that escapes you ? Why are you taking something like this and right away saying " It's terrifying " and " What about my rights " Do you have anything to hide ? Are you engaged in any anti American or pro terrorist organizations? No I didn't think so .. so I don't really think you have anything to worry about.

Is this a bad thing to have happen ? Yes of course it is .. will affect the great job the FBI does everyday to keep up safe ? No of course it won't. In the post 9/11 world the 4th amendment can't be hidden behind. We all have to understand that in the name of national security, there are certain things that the government may have to do to keep us safe, I say go for it, do what you have to do.

Thank you for taking the time to read my rant, from time to time some things just need to be said !!! :angry:

You make many good points. But the fact that it was an open book test is NOT a mitigating factor at all.

The purpose of an open book test is generally to test one's ability to find reference information. I.E. they need to look up a law. Do you know where to look it up and how to interpret it?

The article states that they were collaborating and had obtained copies of the answer key. I'm not going to make any more judgements or conclusions than that, because as you said, it shouldn't affect their ability to do the job, and they still have to get the job done.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Core Motto of the FBI:

"Fidelity, Bravery, and Integrity."

Can't have much integrity if you are cheating/lying...

[Just a guy 493]

Core Motto of the FBI:

"Fidelity, Bravery, and Integrity."

Can't have much integrity if you are cheating/lying...

Maybe in a perfect world people don't cheat and people don't lie but as most of us know, this world is far from perfect. I don't agree with what they did but I can't pass judgement based on a media article that will inevitably have a liberal slant to it.

FBI operations are tightly controlled and there are many checks and balances so no one agent can operate on his own without a supervisory agent overseeing what he is doing.

What these agents did will IN NO WAY put anyone's rights in danger.. this is an internal situation and should be handled accordingly.

Just think .. it's not like this was a test to become GLG 20's !!!

[ny10570 745]

If you think cops never cheat or lie then you really need to grow up. The most honest cop in the world is still going to lie his balls off when the wife asks if she looks fat, lie about the last fish he caught, and lie throughout dozens of other situations in life where the lie does no harm and keeps his life moving along. If you get home from the supermarket and see they didn't charge you for something are you going back cash in hand to fix it? What about every cop that accepts a free coffee or lunch while at work? None of this means these are officers that can't be trusted.

There was no worry about a sudden shift in ethics or ability to do their job when New England was hit with rampant and systemic cheating on EMT certifications. This to me us much more minor as the FBI incident was an in house test to asses their people.

Edited September 29, 2010 by ny10570

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

If this cheating scandal was such a little problem why did the assistant director of DC field office "retire" due to his involvement in this affair? How come 5 of the 22 agents accused of cheating (22%) are supervisors? Not only did the 22 agents cheat of a test, they lied about it too (question 51 on the test was did you cheat on this test). How can anyone be expected to believe the integrity of these individuals when they so freely compromise it. It suggests a culture of short cutting, cutting corners, dishonesty and playing fast and loose with federal regulations because honestly, that is exactly what happened. As it was mentioned above, it was an open book, open notes test. If they need "help" from their buddies, a cheat sheet or computer programming error on an open note, open book test then maybe they should go back for some more training on what our rights actually are and what rights they don't have.

Again, being honest, this test was not about the extent of our rights but more the limit of their own.

“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” -Thomas Jefferson

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” - Benjamin Franklin

Edited September 29, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[INIT915 1,119]

Maybe in a perfect world people don't cheat and people don't lie but as most of us know, this world is far from perfect. I don't agree with what they did but I can't pass judgement based on a media article that will inevitably have a liberal slant to it.

Just out of curiosity why would the story have a liberal slant?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/27/justice-ig-finds-cheating-fbi-agents-test-knowledge-surveillance-rules/ -- From FOX news, and I am not sure anyone (ever in the history of time) has mistaken them for a liberal media organization.

[Just a guy 493]

Just out of curiosity why would the story have a liberal slant?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/27/justice-ig-finds-cheating-fbi-agents-test-knowledge-surveillance-rules/ -- From FOX news, and I am not sure anyone (ever in the history of time) has mistaken them for a liberal media organization.

It's become very clear over the past few years that only in very rare circumstances can law enforcement get a fair shake from the media. I find that most stories about law enforcement have a slant to them and it's never positive. Down here we see this constantly with news 12.. no matter what we do we can't get a positive story out of them

[INIT915 1,119]

It's become very clear over the past few years that only in very rare circumstances can law enforcement get a fair shake from the media. I find that most stories about law enforcement have a slant to them and it's never positive. Down here we see this constantly with news 12.. no matter what we do we can't get a positive story out of them

I don't disagree that LE can catch a bad rap from the media. But pulling the old "liberal media" line just cause we don't like a story diminishes the effect when a story truly is slanted. In this case, whether we like it or not, cheating is wrong, and the mere fact that the media is reporting what the DOJ has already found to be a fact doesn't do anyone any justice by blaming them.

We risk sounding like some of the pathetic politicians who get in the habit of blaming the press for merely reporting unflattering stories.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Just out of curiosity why would the story have a liberal slant?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/27/justice-ig-finds-cheating-fbi-agents-test-knowledge-surveillance-rules/ -- From FOX news, and I am not sure anyone (ever in the history of time) has mistaken them for a liberal media organization.

Because it's a story reprinted from the AP, not FAUX News.

[Oswegowind 17]

Exactly what does "open book" mean now-a-days? With the advent of that new thing from Al Gore's desk called the internet, open book to me takes on a whole new meaning. In fact, more often than not, when someone needs something looked up, well they call the radio room...lol So asking someone where an answer might be, corroborating to get the correct info, researching to get the correct answers, in my book this is not cheating...it is using the world as an "open book".

[INIT915 1,119]

Because it's a story reprinted from the AP, not FAUX News.

Really besides the point. Whether they wrote it or reprinted it, if it was truly a "left wing liberal media conspiracy", (which I don't actually believe in), then Fox wouldn't be putting the story forward.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Everyone seems to be avoiding asking the really one important question. Why did the FBI/DOJ think it necessary to test its (already) agents on what they are legally allowed to do in the first place? These are not the beat cops of yore. The majority have advanced degrees, indeed many are lawyers themselves, so it begs the question...why.

As for hiding behind the 4th amendment I don't have to hide behind anything, it is my right. Many of you might be unfamiliar with the Mc Carthy era. Many honest, law abiding American citizens were disgraced, ruined, forced to flee their country, and some even committed suicide. All because one man whipped the county into a frenzy of fear & distrust in the name of "National security" all of which, ultimately, proved to be false & unnecessary. The part of the Pledge of allegiance "one nation under God" was not part of the Pledge as originally written & "In God we trust" on $ are two remaining reminders of that time in our history.

As to living in post 9/11 America & the so called "Patriot Act" there are 2 final comments. 1.) Watergate would have never happened. The President could have (as he tried to do) classify the event under "National security" & he would have gotten away with what amounted to a petty crime. 2.) In present day, if you leave the country with your laptop (or any other electronic device Ipad, Ipod etc), upon your return the government may confiscate such devices for no other reason other than "suspicion" & keep them until they are ready to return them sometimes months.

I agree with the post which quoted Ben Franklin, people who give up their freedoms in exchange for greater security will get neither.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Ga-Lin

[Doc 11]

Who are we to question the tools of justice?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Who are we to question the tools of justice?

American Citizens

In being such we allow government to derive..."their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

- Declaration of Independence

July 4th, 1776

Thats who we are....

[Ga-Lin 86]

American Citizens

In being such we allow government to derive..."their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

- Declaration of Independence

July 4th, 1776

Thats who we are....

Well said!

[ny10570 745]

Everyone seems to be avoiding asking the really one important question. Why did the FBI/DOJ think it necessary to test its (already) agents on what they are legally allowed to do in the first place? These are not the beat cops of yore.

Maybe they had an increase in improper use of these procedures, or maybe Its just part of their continuing evaluation of their agents knowledge and effectiveness of ongoing training.