138th St Bridge Fire

[ny10570 745]

For all of FDNYs experience and equipment it looks like they could use some help on drafting ops. After 9/11 the dept felt it was important enough where now every engine is equipped with flexible suction, but here at this fire they had to wait more than 20 minutes for a Marine Unit to get water flowing and later established a hydrant at least a 1/4 mile away. The water line isn't more than 10 feet below the pier there and the water is several feet deep before large debris and a few feet further to bottom.

[Guest jcnyc]

I am fairly sure our suction is NOT to be used in more than two sections. So your idea although good is not going to happen. Neither is driving a 650k dollar engine that close to the water on a shaky pylon.

[Guest jcnyc]

It was confirmed by the Captain working and another book worm. Can not use more than 2 lengths of our 'suction' for drafting. This isnt the legit stuff that has the rigid rings around it like in the real world.

[Mac8146 61]

Before you say anything of how FDNY operates maybe you should check area where fire occurred, there was no place for any apparatus to get close enough to draft safely, that area is undergoing major renovations and support for heavy rigs may be suspect. The only FDNY pumpers equipped to draft are the new seagrave 2000 gpm pumpers. You have a draft connection on the officers side mid line, a 6" connection so to position rig you would need to be close to edge and parallel to water not facing in if using front suction for draft. Also not sure of depth around that area, it was easier to use the satelite unit and get water that way.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I talked with my friend who is a foreman with Metro North and that particular area is not a good area for setting up a safe drafting operation. Besides FDNY has thier many years if experience with these types of fires and have certain guidelines to keep everyone safe.

As a person who works for andepartment that drafts a lot for mutual aid, you should not try and draft through more than twenty feet of hard suction. The problem is natural atmospherics working against you when trying to pull a draft and burning out your priming motor.

Always operate safe than sorry.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Forgot to ad that my friend was there during the whole operation.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Drafting with 2 suction lines is a pain, any more than that is damned near impossible.

[ny10570 745]

The engine, was absolutely close enough and right against the rail with a stick right next to it. Those east side piers are very strong and fully capable of the construction traffic they regularly handle. Much of the FDR, and substantial strictures all around Manhattan are built on these piers. They had all the hard suction off the first engine and one guy looked like he was trying to explain to the chauffeur how to position the rig. The BC arrived and then the suction was dropped and they started hand stretching.

In drafting the distance or number of lengths isn't as much of a problem as the vertical height you have to pull the water. 10 feet is within spec for the new engines and two lengths of suction would have made the water. I know I was behind Eng 80 going to the fire, but I don't remember who got to the pier first.

FDNY was well prepared to keep everyone safe. There were life vests a plenty. R3 and the marine unit had guys ready to go in, but if there had been a life at risk they would have had serious problems. They attempted to use the deck guy but the valve to the gun was opened before the pump was spun up, so by the time the stream reached and was aimed at the fire most of the water was lost in the river.

I'm about as big a cheerleader as there is for FDNY and have benefited greatly from the knowledge of many of their members. This was not their strong suit.

Edited September 21, 2010 by ny10570

[Remember585 815]

I find it kind of ironic that in this month's Fire Engineering is the article about last year's fire on the TNB. While not the exact same kind of fire, still another one which shows how well the FDNY's policies are written and practiced.

From what I saw on NY1, there's an Engine and a Tower set up near the water's edge, but no matter how that Engine positioned, I don't think they had optimal access to draft. Coming from a drafting department myself, I see that barrier fence thing as a hinderance, and the lift to draft from there is pretty steep. Since nobody's life was at risk, why chance ruining the 500K Engine - wait for the fireboat.

[FFLieu 70]

It's very easy to Monday morning Quarterback, especially when it involves a situation that garnered much in the way of press coverage and its associated still and video documenation. I'm pretty familiar with that bridge as well as its surrounding environs, and I know that if I were the MPO on one of the responding units, I would be more than just hesitant to park a rather expensive piece of equipment that close to the river or on a rather precarious pier. (Let's face it: NYC doesn't really take care of its infrastructure all too well...) But, the situation begs the question: at the end of the day, did the job come to a successful end? The bridge didn't collapse and its servicability remains intact, and at the height of the evening rush, there wasn't too much in the way of lingering delays, which is a big plus, so I'd say that it was a good stop. Regardless of the methodology used, or even what, according to the textbook, would be the optimal methodology to use in the situation, the ends definitely justified the means yesterday.