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[firebuff860 54]

Based on my 270 size up from google maps, I would doubt their is a basement apartment although their is a below grade basement based on the side 1 view of the structure. There is also a door on the 1/2 corner on the 2 side.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good exercise. From the building photo we can infer many things about the building. I'd certainly agree that it's highly likely that the building is a balloon frame. It clearly appears to be an OMD given the three meters and the presence of window air conditioners. Even without the added half story window, I'd venture a guess the stairs were in that large blank spot long the side 4 wall. As for the kitchen(s): the only real clues I see are the two smaller windows on the 4 side. One is in the rear of the first floor, the second is on the second floor closer to the front. These allow room for counters. Of course bathrooms typically have higher sills to keep the everything "PG" from the outside.

As for the aerial: I'd have a rearmount back into the driveway enough to place the outriggers on the sidewalk. Once the turntable is under or beyond the wires, the stick should be free to go anywhere on side #4. Similarly a MM could pull in, though our ALF might need blocking for the cab stabilizers on the slope of the driveway.

[16fire5 693]

If a mid mount tower ladder is first due I would place my turntable under the wires and get my inbound tormentor on the driveway. This way I could get side 1 and 4 with the bucket. Initially I would put the bucket to the valley between the dormer and the main gabble for hole close to the ridge towards the front of the house.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I didn't draw in any chimney smoke

What is the "fog" on the upper right corner of the picture? Same color as around the window showing fire. Was that just how the picture came out?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here is the 1/2 side:

Now what information is available to the IC?

This afternoon I was sitting across the street from the location and within 2 minutes I could determine the following information (plus a whole lot more that has no bearing on this incident)

2 Family Residential (one on floor #1, the other on floor #2).

The Home is 20’ wide and 59’ deep (garage is 12’4” x 20’) Property is 50 x 100

Built in 1923 (no major renovation permits issued)

1 chimney but no fireplace.

2 bath rooms & 2 kitchens(1 per floor)

Basement is not tall enough for habitable space

The 1st floor bathroom was damaged in a fire in 1966.

The current owner purchased this home 4 years ago (to the day of this fire).

It has a permit for #2 Fuel Oil – But none for the burner (so after the fire we maybe issuing a violation).

[wraftery 1,275]

What is the "fog" on the upper right corner of the picture? Same color as around the window showing fire. Was that just how the picture came out?

That's smoke. Gable vents

[wraftery 1,275]

Here is the 1/2 side:

Now what information is available to the IC?

This afternoon I was sitting across the street from the location and within 2 minutes I could determine the following information (plus a whole lot more that has no bearing on this incident)

2 Family Residential (one on floor #1, the other on floor #2).

The Home is 20’ wide and 59’ deep (garage is 12’4” x 20’) Property is 50 x 100

Built in 1923 (no major renovation permits issued)

1 chimney but no fireplace.

2 bath rooms & 2 kitchens(1 per floor)

Basement is not tall enough for habitable space

The 1st floor bathroom was damaged in a fire in 1966.

The current owner purchased this home 4 years ago (to the day of this fire).

It has a permit for #2 Fuel Oil – But none for the burner (so after the fire we maybe issuing a violation).

Good work Barry. Does the IC (2302) have that on his vehicle computer?

This was a good discussion. What say if in your travels you take some pics and photoshop them with a situation. Don't reveal your CIDS info until the end.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Good work Barry. Does the IC (2302) have that on his vehicle computer?

Thanks. Currently 2302 & 2306(me) have all of this info. Every rig has CIDS which gives critical info that has been submitted. This includes construction issues, Hazmat, and issues with the property. CIDs info generally comes from inspections, or from incidents.

The info I pulled up is available on all city properties and will be available to all apparatus within 6 months.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here is the 1/2 side:

Now what information is available to the IC?

This afternoon I was sitting across the street from the location and within 2 minutes I could determine the following information (plus a whole lot more that has no bearing on this incident)

2 Family Residential (one on floor #1, the other on floor #2).

The Home is 20’ wide and 59’ deep (garage is 12’4” x 20’) Property is 50 x 100

Built in 1923 (no major renovation permits issued)

1 chimney but no fireplace.

2 bath rooms & 2 kitchens(1 per floor)

Basement is not tall enough for habitable space

The 1st floor bathroom was damaged in a fire in 1966.

The current owner purchased this home 4 years ago (to the day of this fire).

It has a permit for #2 Fuel Oil – But none for the burner (so after the fire we maybe issuing a violation).

Great info. My only immediate question is what is the box-like thing sticking from the basement window on the #2 side toward the rear? It appears to be another window AC unit which might contradict the CIDS info. My only point is that we must weigh what info is on the screen with a good size-up. While the data sheet may indicate the basement is uninhabitable, tough economic times might open spaces that were previously not utilized. Here in my 'burg, ordinance dictates a habitable space must have a minimum of 7 foot ceilings, while we consistently see people illegally utilize "uninhabitable spaces" for bedrooms.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Great info. My only immediate question is what is the box-like thing sticking from the basement window on the #2 side toward the rear? It appears to be another window AC unit which might contradict the CIDS info.

Good eye. yes its an AC unit.

My only point is that we must weigh what info is on the screen with a good size-up. While the data sheet may indicate the basement is uninhabitable, tough economic times might open spaces that were previously not utilized. Here in my 'burg, ordinance dictates a habitable space must have a minimum of 7 foot ceilings, while we consistently see people illegally utilize "uninhabitable spaces" for bedrooms.

Very true. And even if not an illegal "apt" it can be legally occupied as a bedreoom by a family member, so we still need to check it..

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good eye. yes its an AC unit.

Very true. And even if not an illegal "apt" it can be legally occupied as a bedreoom by a family member, so we still need to check it..

Cleary this is not directed at BNECHIS, but is a general statement about the computer technology on the fireground. In fact, it's great to see the CIDS info after the fact as WRAFERTY noted as we can compare what our assumptions were to what data was collected, neither can be proven right or wrong without further investigation.

The reliance on computers is starting to become a fear for us, as more and more we lose sight of teaching proper size-up. With overall fire responses down, it is really incumbent on company officers and chiefs to make the most of any responses, by pointing out little tips and pointers whenever the opportunity rises.

Like so many other fields, we can get sucked into relying on CIDS reports to tell us how the building is being used. There is no doubt that CIDS info has enhanced our capabilities and made the fireground somewhat safer by providing rapid access to information we rarely had before. But like anything we must remain suspicious about everything we see and when we find something doesn't appear as we thought, we need to verify or prove the information is incorrect.

Like so many other busy FD's we have a hard time keeping up with routine tasks thrown at us in the midst of rising incident number(sadly not fires). This leads to poorly kept data. As we all know, computer information can be an excellent resource but is only as good as it's been entered. So while floor plans are a huge benefits, we must be careful that are updated whenever changes occur and that we remain highly suspicious about the relevance of the data as it ages. As the economy declines, the prevalence of illegal building modification seems to increase.

This kind of exercise is really important as we all need to remain sharp at how to size-up the building, not just the fire. First arriving officer's must give an accurate radio report, but more importantly they must be able to begin the initial operation based on accurately sizing up the fire relative to the building it's in.

Edited September 22, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[wraftery 1,275]

Words of wisdom from the state of Maine. (Maine is noted for that, in case you didn't know) Good summary!

I think we are finished with anymore useful dialog on this one house. Remember, that when you round the corner and see this, you only have a few seconds to do what took this thread days.

Your best tool is the one that lies directly under your helmet.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Your best tool is the one that lies directly under your helmet.

If you are refering to hair, many of us are in trouble. LOL.

[Guest Firediver]

If you are refering to hair, many of us are in trouble. LOL.

IF it is hair, I am very insulted too.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Firediver

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Hey Chief, did you get them to stretch the line to the interior stairs and get up and search the fire-floor yet?

All kidding aside, nice analysis of a complex structure. One thing about these old ballons is how tinder-dry the structure is. Collapse is very possible way early into the evolution.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for all the info fellas.

[rickperry99 8]

I didn't read anyone's replies on purpose so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. I see a 3 family balloon frame possibly occupied, doesn't appear to have much an exposure problem except maybe on the C side (cant tell what's on the rear from the picture). Looks remodeled so who knows if there are fire stops between floors, what the floor plan is like, or if anything at all is code. Possibly a stairwell on the D side, power lines present a problem, might be able to get an aerial to the roof from the AD or AB corner (either way ground ladders are a must). Kitchens in these homes are usually in the rear, but which floor? Could be as many as 4 different kitchens here including the basement. As the first due Truck I'm sure my boss would have us check the basement first and work our way up.

[wraftery 1,275]

Look at that! A good, quick size-up. You can almost tell that Tommy Brennan was Waterbury's Chief. A good friend, Tommy's passing was a great loss to the fire service. RIP, Tom.

[wraftery 1,275]

Hey Chief, did you get them to stretch the line to the interior stairs and get up and search the fire-floor yet?

All kidding aside, nice analysis of a complex structure. One thing about these old ballons is how tinder-dry the structure is. Collapse is very possible way early into the evolution.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for all the info fellas.

Stretch a line??? This thing has been thru the roof for 2 days and we're still looking for the kitchen!