NYC won’t hire new firefighters; exam ruled discriminatory

[JohnnyOV 2]

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City won't hire any rookie firefighters until a new entry exam is created to replace one that a judge has declared discriminatory. The city's law department had until today to choose one of five alternatives to hire entry-level firefighters while awaiting the new exam.

http://www.lohud.com...-discriminatory

Good for the law dept for saying no to all the race based alternatives.

Edited September 17, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[Alpinerunner 61]

Good for the city for sure! However, I have a somewhat related question that I was hoping someone would be able to help me with.

I saw on the last application that for the last FDNY test date of Jan 2007, NYC residency had to be established from March 2007 - March 2008. So you can move to the city AFTER you take the test? Is this expected to be the same for the 2011 test?

Edited September 17, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[IzzyEng4 427]

So they will not be hiring up to 300 new recruits like the last article stated, which the same judge who said the testing was discriminatory was going to allow them too????

I'm confused.

[Alpinerunner 61]

So they will not be hiring up to 300 new recruits like the last article stated, which the same judge who said the testing was discriminatory was going to allow them too????

I'm confused.

This article sums up the options the judge gave to the city pretty well. The city chose 'neither of the above' because they all mandated racial discrimination (ironically):

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/fdny-given-go-ahead-new-recruits

[mfc2257 464]

So they will not be hiring up to 300 new recruits like the last article stated, which the same judge who said the testing was discriminatory was going to allow them too????

I'm confused.

In the meantime, the city is short FF's which means that overtime costs continue to cripple them financially.

[INIT915 1,119]

So they will not be hiring up to 300 new recruits like the last article stated, which the same judge who said the testing was discriminatory was going to allow them too????

I'm confused.

The Judge did allow them to make the hires, and he gave them some options to do so. The City, finding all the options unfathomable choose to decline any hires while they consider an appeal of the original decision, and while they formulate a new test.

[JM15 386]

Aren't they scheduled to hold a test in a couple of months?

[Mac8146 61]

What really is ridiculous is the judge had no basis to rule on current list. Lawsuit stems from 1999 and 2002 tests. This list is the 2007 test and this judge should have no control on hiring. If he rules for the 1999 and 2002 tests then something should be worked out for the people involved. I am happy the city said no, I am tired of hearing about all this, it is not difficult to take and pass the test and then a physical and medical. You have to want the job not be handed it. I hope that the city wont turn around and use OT costs and such to try to close firehouses or reduce manning in future, I am sure they have a plan in place and will blame judge and so on.

[Guest Firediver]

You have to want the job

Exactly!This is what drives me nuts!!! This is a job that you can not just flip a switch and be "into" it for a tour then forget about it until you come back. There is nobody that good or all knowing to do this with other lives in your hands. There are other jobs out there that will fit this type of thinking, DEFINITELY not this job. NOBODY is owed this job! You WANT it!!, you study, get physically fit and take the test. Just getting by is going to get a brother hurt/injured etc. because you are not INTO my career just here for the benefits and a Civil Service job. This type of ish really burns me and all i'm trying to do is get BACK to work. Rant over. Stay Low

I used the term "my career" as the Fire Service as a whole (career, Vol,etc)

Edited September 18, 2010 by Firediver

[fireandbikes 3]

What exactly about the test is discriminatory, reading? math, science? I havent heard why the test discriminates, just that it does. Anybody have more info on this?

[INIT915 1,119]

What exactly about the test is discriminatory, reading? math, science? I havent heard why the test discriminates, just that it does. Anybody have more info on this?

From a legal standpoint, the issue being addressed by the District Court Judge is one of "disparate impact." He (or the plaintiffs) don't have to show how or why the pass rates for minorities/non-minorities are so different (hell, they don't even have to understand why there is a disparity), rather, the plaintiff only has to show there is a statistical anomaly, and in the end the protected class can meet the minimum practical responsibilities of the job. The concept was developed (or more appropriately honed) in Griggs v. Duke Power, in the 1970's.

As unfair as it seems (and I am one who does believe it is unfair), this Judge is unfortunately just following precedent. What needs to done is a ruling from a Court of Record (COR) essentially modifying existing precedent. Some of the SCOTUS argument in Ricci v. NH did that, so in this case NYC will have a leg to stand on that it didn't only a few years ago. The ironic thing is if he ruled for NYC, we would be calling him an "activist judge."

While I disagree with this ruling, I don't envy the rock and the hard place this Judge is in, ruling between precedent and what is, in my personal opinion, the right thing to do. NYC's best avenue of regress here is an appellant argument, relying heavily on the Ricci decision.

[fireandbikes 3]

"He (or the plaintiffs) don't have to show how or why the pass rates for minorities/non-minorities are so different (hell, they don't even have to understand why there is a disparity), rather, the plaintiff only has to show there is a statistical anomaly"

I do not agree with the ruling either, but if NYC has to amend their testing, how do you know what to amend if no examples backed with statistical proof are given? How do you fix something when you dont know whats broken? If it is truly discriminatory, the plantiffs should have to provide specfics of what exactly is discriminatory period!

[INIT915 1,119]

I do not agree with the ruling either, but if NYC has to amend their testing, how do you know what to amend if no examples backed with statistical proof are given? How do you fix something when you dont know whats broken? If it is truly discriminatory, the plantiffs should have to provide specfics of what exactly is discriminatory period!

While I agree with you in principal, I think this is unwise and unfair law, 40 years of Court decisions say otherwise. NYC has to fight this the right way, seek a judicial decision which says the reasons these laws were adopted 40+ years ago is no longer an issue.

[dadbo46 50]

What a mess !

[16fire5 693]

I hope that the city wont turn around and use OT costs and such to try to close firehouses or reduce manning in future

I was thinking the same thing.

I think "disparate impact" is the issue and Justice Scalia touched on this in his opinion he wrote in the New Haven case. But the problem I found with the judges ruling is that he found the city intentionally discriminated. Everyone knows that is far from the truth.

[ny10570 745]

A Washington Times Editorial on the mess

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/21/justice-department-undermines-fdny/

[JM15 386]

Anyone know when this is getting cleared up? or when they are looking at having another test?

[M' Ave 1,466]

A Washington Times Editorial on the mess

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/21/justice-department-undermines-fdny/

Another well written article that will fall on the deaf ears of the few. The average citizen, of all races and backgrounds, is not in favor of this ruling. Let merit prevail! I'm so sick of the whining and complaining when things aren't just handed to you in this city. Last week I was sickened watching the NY City Council hearing on the snow storm. Councilmembers wanted to know why Public Housing wasn't adequately plowed and shoveled...uh, to the residents: You get what you (don't)pay for. Other council members wanted to know why people in the "Welfare to Work" program weren't getting paid by sanitation when they showed up to shovel. Uh....'cause you're already getting public assistance and shoveling a little snow for it isn't the worst thing ever. Along the same lines, I love how the FDNY should mirror the population that it serves, like it has some obligation to offer city residents jobs. What? I always thought it was to hire the best from the candidate pool and provide the best possible service. Where would I get a crazy idea like that!?

Guess what!? Life isn't fair. You get an equal shot, a fair written exam. Actually, it's more than fair, it's a veritable bunt! However, someone loses! That's that. In fact, most people lose and you can't please everyone. End of story.

The Judge is still holding onto the final decision, impeding the city's ability to appeal. They will as soon as they have the ability.

***Crack*** There goes my soap box! Thanks for listening, rant over.

[CFD320 35]

Anyone reading this forum wants to get on THE job they had better come to grips with the idea that they are going to have to put in some time riding a bus... FDNY can't hire off the open competitive list, but there is no restriction on promoting.

Birds are chirping about a class of probies comprised of 100% EMS promos.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Anyone reading this forum wants to get on THE job they had better come to grips with the idea that they are going to have to put in some time riding a bus... FDNY can't hire off the open competitive list, but there is no restriction on promoting.

Birds are chirping about a class of probies comprised of 100% EMS promos.

Details?

[ny10570 745]

If that's true, why such a long wait to do it? Promotion and Open are the same test I don't see how they would escape the judge's ruling.

[M' Ave 1,466]

If that's true, why such a long wait to do it? Promotion and Open are the same test I don't see how they would escape the judge's ruling.

Well, promotions aren't the same as a new hire, so I don't know that they're beholden to the same scrutiny. That said, I didn't know that they're were many left on the promotional list. I thought they exhausted that list with the last proby class.

Is anyone left on the list? If there is and they can use it, why wait this long?

[MKEMT 0]

CFD when would you assume that they would give a promo test??....On the EMS side we haven't heard squat about a promotion test since our 2008 promo got rescheduled indefinitely

[ny10570 745]

Someone could figure this out with some free time at a dept computer, but I know a few guys who were still waiting on that promotional list. The last rumor I heard was the 2 year promotional was gone and they were only offering it with the open exam.

There is zero difference between the rules applying to the open and the promotional. The only advantage to the promotional was it is a substantially shorter list and was burned through much faster. I believe the quota was 10% of each class was promotional, but that is going off a fuzzy memory and may be wrong.

[16fire5 693]

Birds are chirping about a class of probies comprised of 100% EMS promos.

I think the birds you overheard are nothing more than rumors.

There is zero difference between the rules applying to the open and the promotional. The only advantage to the promotional was it is a substantially shorter list and was burned through much faster.

The advantage is huge due to the promotional nature the city is able to hire the entire list prior to those that are on the open list. This equates to someone on the promotional list with a 70 being hired before the 100s on the open list. Also prior to switching to the CPAT you could fail 2 stations on the agility and still have a technically passing grade. While this was the case for the open exam few if any canidates were ever hired from the open exam that did not have a 100 on the physical. In my opinion it should have been pass/fail and failure of any of the stations should have resulted in disqualifications.

[Guest Andyboyfire]

Any updates of a possible promotional exam this year or next?

Thanks.

[ny10570 745]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/139772/city-council-expected-to-approve-new-fdny-exam-legislation

http://www.dnainfo.com/20110526/manhattan/aging-wouldbe-firefighters-shut-out-by-litigation-push-for-higher-age-limits

So it looks like the new age limit was to be voted on by the city council earlier today. Any word on the result?

[ny10570 745]

Answered my own question. The bill was passed. Any candidate who took the last test up to the age of 36 may register for the next test.

[hudson144 150]

This hiring situation for FDNY is gettin real interesting, with a judge squashing any hiring and demanding a new test alot has gone on lately. Some real good scoop which might raise a few eyebrows out there. Go to Merit Matters.com to read some new information which may open some new doors with this whole mess. Hats off to Chief Mannix for his hard fight to keep "standards" in the FDNY!