Time in Department/Rank for Promotion - Volunteer FDs

[robert benz 344]

OK, I stirred up a lively discussion on another thread so here is my question,

A) How much time / experience do you need to move up from firefighter to company officer?

How much time MUST be spent at each position of rank prior to moving up?

My questions come as a result of a member with 2 yrs as a firefighter, taking the role of Lt. My opinion is that you do not have enough firematic experience to put yourself in the position of responsibility for other members. Yes it is a blanket statement and, in my opinion, it diminishes the rank of Lieut. or whatever rank is held, to a point of "what difference does it make".

This isn't meant to be a personal attack on any member - just putting it out there to see how others feel.

I didn't include career depts in this thread as the criteria is different - not without some of the same problems, but different.

[MoFire390 118]

I agree with you Rob. 2 years is too short to run as an officer. It takes more then 2 years to understand the department you represent and get the trust of the other members.

The department I belong to each officer does 2 years at one position. then goes through the ranks all the way to chief.

Some departments don't have a requirement as long as you have a badge you are good to go. Hope this helps

Ken

[Atv300 69]

I agree to a point about the years it takes to be able to make the transition from ff to officer. In my dpartment there is a minimum of 3yrs active to be able to run for an office. As far as the years go some times you get someone who is really active makes an effort to lean the ropes and responsibilites and dose the training all that he can get/ makes a lot of runs (if you have a lot) and might in 3 to 4 years have enough to make a good LT. In other cases you have someone who yea has the years but nothing out of it because of the I will say activness for lack of a better word. Last but not least moving through the ranks it depends on the person I would say no less then 2ys a position before moving is a good rule since if you think about it your first year is kind of a learning year.

[Remember585 815]

Time is relative.

What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.

Make it tougher to move up.

- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.

- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.

- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.

- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.

- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!

I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.

Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

[FD7807 59]

Real good points Chief. Unfortunately there are usually 2 groups within a FD: Guys who train and guys who want no part of it. I am proudly part of the guys who train and you are right those of us who train and have been a part of the fire service need to do a good job of drumming that home into newer guys who join. It is the only way to change the climate around the firehouse.

Edited September 3, 2010 by jack10562

[gamewell45 258]

Time is relative.

What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.

Make it tougher to move up.

- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.

- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.

- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.

- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.

- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!

I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.

Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

One important thing which should be added to the list: classroom training for people/social skills. Someone who is well versed in firematics can, at times, be completely useless as a command officer if he/she has no people skills and i'm sure all of us at one time or another have run into officers who were excellent when it came to their firematics, but kept people away from the fire house because they didn't know how to properly deal with people.

Just a thought.

[Atv300 69]

Yes well said chief the standards on training and calls run would be an awsome addition to years in for running or moving up in the ranks. Some departments do have some good starts to this idea. The dpt I am in has set classes you need for each position and as I said before 3yrs for running wich at one point in our history it was 5yrs before you were able to run.

And I could not agree more on the addition of leadership/ managment skills for officers to learn the people skills. The fire service officer vol or paid has like 90% people handeling and manegment duties not on the fire ground and 10% fire ground ops. Just rough thrown out there figures that sound close.

[JTF429 37]

I know this is aimed at volunteer departments. How about a promotional exam for the postion. There are alot of departments that have requirements for different postions, but are they classes where the person just showed up and recieved a cert. How about an assessment center for hands on skills. You could have a live fire scenerio, an in box with a problem employee, and some type of customer service issiue. The problem with time is that you could have a department that has not responded to a 1st due fire in months or a year. I see it in my town, the training division is run by officers who have very little if any experience in a fire. They are going to move up. Yea hands on traing is great, any type of training is great but I think you need something in place to test them on it. Sadly the volunteers on this sight who agree and train hard and are outstanding members will not get elected, because they are the one's making noise about it. Intersting topic.

[Remember585 815]

The Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses provided by the OFPC aren't bad. What would be nice is a local (county-level) Line Officer and Chief Officer training program. Give these new officers some direction by guys that have been there and done that. Have guys like Captain Benz put together a program to prepare entry-level company officers, and offer another program for chief officers. There are so many things that Chiefs need to know that frankly go unnoticed. I don't know if anyone remembers this, but a while back (maybe two years ago) I posted a topic asking what legal options and standards are out there so Chiefs knew. I got minimal reply, and my guess is that it was due to the lack of knowing this information.

Career Officers have the option to go to the FDNY FLIP School, I wish something like this (even if scaled down a bit) was available to us volunteers. We will command similar incidents and have to answer to the same lawyers if we make mistakes.

[MoFire390 118]

There are so many different views and options out there for qualifications of officers. What happened when those classes weren't available back in the '60's and '70's?? I know one thing I NEVER heard my grandfather talk about the intro to fire officer classes and fire officer classes. Everything was how you handled yourself on the fire ground. I don't know, just rambling I guess.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Chris192
converted txt spk to regular text

[FFPCogs 863]

I've chimed in on this subject a few times already but here it is again.

In answer to your questions i would like to see the follwing:

1.Time served - minimum of 3 years active duty in accordance with departmental policies before becoming ELIGIBLE to seek promotion from FF to LT.

2. Minimum of 2 years in each position thereafter to be ELIGIBLE to seek promotion.

My criteria would be the follwing four step process for promotion

A.3 yrs minimum in the department again with 2 years active duty in each position before advancing

B.standardized certification levels

LT - F.O.1

Cpt - F.O.2

Chief -F.O. 3

C Exams per position based on some certification material (including personnel management) but more importantly departmental SOGs and By-Laws

D.Election by membership. This one only AFTER all the above criteria has been met or exceeded.

Cogs

[Remember585 815]

There are so many different views and options out there for qualifications of officers. What happened when those classes weren't available back in the '60's and '70's?? I know one thing I NEVER heard my grandfather talk about the intro to fire officer classes and fire officer classes. Everything was how you handled yourself on the fire ground. I don't know, just rambling I guess.

Kenny,

A lot of the guys that became officers in the firehouse back then had military training and experience. They also saw more fires then we all do now. Times have changed. We respond to calls of all types now, not like 40-50 years ago when they went to fires and occassionally had to rescue someone from something. It's the "stupid" calls we go to that sometimes require the most thinking, and making bad decisions can lead to LAWSUITS or even JAIL TIME. In the old days, people actually respected and appreciated what first responders did for them, not like nowadays.

Your Grandpa, my Grandpa and all of those old timers only needed balls to be firemen. They charged into burning buildings without SCBA, with little to no PPE, no radios and no training. Their experiences and recollection of what worked and what didn't work is what guided them. That's just not good enough in today's society.

[Atv300 69]

Exams to test competency would be another great addition to the list. During my time in school doing fire science class was the first time I heard about the flip school and it sounded like a great resource for the officer to grow. Chief again thanks great info for us to look at for our benefit. And everyone who has chimed in giving a lot of great ideas to try and reform the current polices in your respective department if its feasible.

Just throwing it out there what about train the trainer classes so the officers that are expected to train their subordinates can do so properly and with some background in teaching someone. I know people can do the task but can they train me and make it stick.

As far as the classes or what ever in the 60's or 70's your right they did what they had to do with what they had. On the other hand a lot has changed since then not only what you have to know and be able to do. The people as a hole changed in my opinion kids today are different when it comes to authority and leaning not saying there bad but its diff teaching someone now then back in the day when respect was different in my eyes. Then you did what you were told no ??? Asked and if you didn't u were out back getting a reason to listen. Afterward you all went out for a beer. Now there is more challenges to the authority "why do I have to do that I am vol" things like that. And now try that form of discipline there will be criminal charges or civil suits.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Atv300

[WstPrideEng92 3]

Lets be honest most departments in this county don't run alot of fires. Hell there lucky if they get 2 fires a year. And lets not forget you have to be around for those 2 fires your department may get that year. Fires are where we as officers and firemen get the real hands on experience. This is where we become good or bad firemen. I know plenty of people who have barely seen any fire and yet they are line officers and chiefs. I think because of the lack of fires it is easy for people to get by with no real experience in this county. Back in the day there was alot more fire to go around giving everyone more experience.

back to the original question. Having all the classes is great. I do think there should be a minimum number of classroom hours but for me nothing beats actual experience. I agree with a standard of x amount of years with the dept. before becoming an officer. In the end i think it all comes down to training. You should strive to be proficient in all aspects required of you.

[ex-commish 490]

Career Officers have the option to go to the FDNY FLIP School, I wish something like this (even if scaled down a bit) was available to us volunteers. We will command similar incidents and have to answer to the same lawyers if we make mistakes.

Good point and I also wish the same but what bothers me is that we have organizations such as FASNY, WCVFA, Westchester Chiefs, etc. All supposed to be representing our best interests. Untill we demand that these organizations demand that such a course be developed as well as total reform in the selection of officers nothing will change. I think most people on this forum know my position on this issue and that I have pushed for change. You go to other parts of the country there is one standard for firefighter, one for officer, regardless if volunteer or career. Period!

[xfirefighter484x 234]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/units/fire_academy/fa_flips.shtml

Now I know we are discussing the system for volunteer departments, but lets look at some other facts. Aside from having to take a promotional exam, and scoring well, after their initial promotion to officership, a career fire officer must:

The First Line Supervisors Training Program (FLSTP) is a four week (160 hour) management/supervisory course mandated by New York State law.

(although this requirement stands only for career departments)

The curriculum conforms substantially to National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards 1021, 1041 and 1500.

...

A first line officer completing this program receives certification in Educational Methodology, Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness, Fire Cause and Origin Determination, Haz Mat First Responder Operations, Fire Instructor Level 1, and Fire Officer Level 1. These certifications are issued by the state Office of Fire Prevention and Control. Additionally, non-New York City officers receive certification in the Fire Reporting System by New York State. Graduates of the program also receive certifications in Building Construction from the National Fire Academy, and FEMA.

That would practically be impossible for most/every volunteer department to adhere to, especially with the turnover rate of officerships in a lot of volly departments. Also, how would a requirement such as this work for a combination department, where you have career officers, and volunteer officers. Why aren't/shouldn't they be held to the same standard?

Not picking on anyone, vollies or career, or any particular persons, departments, or agencies. Just some food for thought.

[x129K 1,393]

I agree to a point about the years it takes to be able to make the transition from ff to officer. In my dpartment there is a minimum of 3yrs active to be able to run for an office. As far as the years go some times you get someone who is really active makes an effort to lean the ropes and responsibilites and dose the training all that he can get/ makes a lot of runs (if you have a lot) and might in 3 to 4 years have enough to make a good LT. In other cases you have someone who yea has the years but nothing out of it because of the I will say activness for lack of a better word. Last but not least moving through the ranks it depends on the person I would say no less then 2ys a position before moving is a good rule since if you think about it your first year is kind of a learning year.

Sounds like a classic you against me! LOL

Volunteer Officers are one of my pet peeves..... elections are a historically and well documented flawed system...a popularity contest. But I digress...

MY OPINION, is that a measley 3 years in a department is not enough to be a good canidate for leadership...5 is better, but still....it needs to be based on experience and training...

Everybody wants to race up through the ranks and be a Chief.....at what costs though? Are you REALLY the right person for the job/position you are in?

What about the Officers that get voted out every other year because the pissed some guys off, while doing their supervisory duties? Been there....more than once..

What these guys coming into a department dont think about - when you put on that Officer helmet...is you are ultimately responsible for the guys on that scene....if you order them into a building that isn't safe, because of your inexperience and FAILURE to recognize dangers...be prepared to deal with a negligence suit...and those guys that DO realize this...pull members out of buildings prematurely and go defensesive way to early!

Guys - forget the shiny white shield - get some real fireground experience first - it can ot be replaced by classroom training! Let yourselves grow into being a true leader, get experience, respect....the rest will come when it is time.

I coud go on all day about this........

EDIT for random thoughts;

"Beware the 21 year old Fire Chief"

I would like to see TWO year terms for elected Officers

I beleive in at LEAST 5 years of junior officer terms before moving up to a Chief; 5 years as a Lieutenant and Captain...

Once you make it to Officer - BE ONE! Supervise.....you should not have a nozzle, hook, saw, Hurst Tool, etc in your hand unless a lack of manpower dictates you must work! Let your FIREMEN do it...and supervise them. A recent picture posted on here shows a vollie Lieutenant on a roof with a saw, with 3 guys backing him up....Hey Loo - give up the saw, and monitor conditions on the roof! Your guys will love ya for letting them "Do Work" and you will gain supervisory experience...actions like that do not go unnoticed by senior guys...

Edited September 4, 2010 by x129K

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Well said Dan!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I would say it depends on the department, Company Officers have different responsibilities everywhere. Like in New Fairfield, for example. 2nd Lieutenants don't really do much other than organize truck checks. They aren't issued radios and RARELY get the opportunity to command a scene. Its more of an apprenticeship to a higher rank than anything.

[robert benz 344]

The Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses provided by the OFPC aren't bad. What would be nice is a local (county-level) Line Officer and Chief Officer training program. Give these new officers some direction by guys that have been there and done that. Have guys like Captain Benz put together a program to prepare entry-level company officers, and offer another program for chief officers. There are so many things that Chiefs need to know that frankly go unnoticed. I don't know if anyone remembers this, but a while back (maybe two years ago) I posted a topic asking what legal options and standards are out there so Chiefs knew. I got minimal reply, and my guess is that it was due to the lack of knowing this information.

Career Officers have the option to go to the FDNY FLIP School, I wish something like this (even if scaled down a bit) was available to us volunteers. We will command similar incidents and have to answer to the same lawyers if we make mistakes.

John, I will develope a officers course and provide it at the county level.

[ja3kfd 34]

Having been a chief already, I followed all the Fire Department rules (by laws). I was 30 when I became chief out at 38 years old, served as Lieut. 2 years Captain for 3 years, I was a member for 7 years before I became Lieut. One of the years i was up for re election I had competion, from an ex chief ( i was running for 2nd asst.) was the year we moved dispatch to 60 control a progessive move for us. I won barely as been said the popularity contest. Anyways I think the Fire Districts should set the standards higher than the Fire Departments do.They are the boss they should mandate times in service, training, courses,etc. Some of the by laws have not been updated since there inception. It is time for this all to change. Something I was taught a long time ago by a customer, I would rather see and talk to the older gentleman with the gray hair he has more experince than you do. Food for thought.....

[Atv300 69]

Dan that is well said. I am gonna play devils advocate real quick I agree 3 years is a little hard to swallow. The main issue we as a vol. service run into today is lack of fires and lack of manpower. Everyone here came up with great ideas to try and combat the office that really could use some more time in the oven not quit done yet. But you have to look at if you add too many years or some really crazy requirements you might get stuck with no one to run or same thing inexperienced/just plain bad officers even though they have the years doesn't make them an officer. On the same page you can have all the classes and that doesn't make you an officer either. Thats why putting the years, classes, number of calls run, and some sort of competence exam is probably the safest bet. As some one said I believe in another thread no system is truly flawless elected, appointed, or promoted by test there will still be the guys coming in that dint belong there. Thats why if your gonna make rules about requirements you should be weary of making it hard for people that should be in office to get in. You know where I am coming from we are seeing in a Dept. right now that is running out of people for the line. i would like to see 5yrs min. For anything above Capt. If you think about it the math would work out perfect. if you make it 3yrs for Lt. gives them at least 2yrs to learn the position. I dont know about others areas but around here most departments use there LT ranks as learning positions. So if everything works out right your LT should be learning the ropes in that position as well as being able to preform the small set of duties set forth depending on your dept. (when I say small I mean it in a comparison to Capt or a Lt set to run a company not downing how much responsibility having that colored helmet or shield affords weather its learning position or full fledged).

Oh and Dan you know I agree %110 on the officer doing what the officer should do, not playing fire fighter when you have plenty of them there to lead and watch. Nothing chafes me more then that when i see the Lt. or Capt. with the line, the saw, or ever the tool at a MVA when there are other qualified FF's there (THAT NEED THE EXPERIENCE SO THEY CAN DO THE JOB SOME DAY).

[Atv300 69]

Sorry Dan i forgot to add you are right about the popularity contest of elections why put somone in the position who can do it when you can have somone who is horrible at it to do the job . when you running for office lol.

[x129K 1,393]

Dan that is well said. I am gonna play devils advocate real quick I agree 3 years is a little hard to swallow. The main issue we as a vol. service run into today is lack of fires and lack of manpower. Everyone here came up with great ideas to try and combat the office that really could use some more time in the oven not quit done yet. But you have to look at if you add too many years or some really crazy requirements you might get stuck with no one to run or same thing inexperienced/just plain bad officers even though they have the years doesn't make them an officer. On the same page you can have all the classes and that doesn't make you an officer either. Thats why putting the years, classes, number of calls run, and some sort of competence exam is probably the safest bet. As some one said I believe in another thread no system is truly flawless elected, appointed, or promoted by test there will still be the guys coming in that dint belong there. Thats why if your gonna make rules about requirements you should be weary of making it hard for people that should be in office to get in. You know where I am coming from we are seeing in a Dept. right now that is running out of people for the line. i would like to see 5yrs min. For anything above Capt. If you think about it the math would work out perfect. if you make it 3yrs for Lt. gives them at least 2yrs to learn the position. I dont know about others areas but around here most departments use there LT ranks as learning positions. So if everything works out right your LT should be learning the ropes in that position as well as being able to preform the small set of duties set forth depending on your dept. (when I say small I mean it in a comparison to Capt or a Lt set to run a company not downing how much responsibility having that colored helmet or shield affords weather its learning position or full fledged).

Oh and Dan you know I agree %110 on the officer doing what the officer should do, not playing fire fighter when you have plenty of them there to lead and watch. Nothing chafes me more then that when i see the Lt. or Capt. with the line, the saw, or ever the tool at a MVA when there are other qualified FF's there (THAT NEED THE EXPERIENCE SO THEY CAN DO THE JOB SOME DAY).

Is this deja vu without those beers @ Wabeeka?

[Atv300 69]

Is this deja vu without those beers @ Wabeeka?

When I first started on this topic I thought the same thing. Ha ha ha I guess you can have a good productive discussion over a beer roundtable.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Guys - forget the shiny white shield - get some real fireground experience first - it can not be replaced by classroom training! Let yourselves grow into being a true leader, get experience, respect....the rest will come when it is time.

Many of the posts have talked about the number of years needed (2, 3, 5 etc.) But that does not cover experience. Can (or should) a firefighter be promoted to LT. if hey have never actually been on the line or performing a real search inside a working structure fire?

VFD's are one of the only organizations that will allow someone who has never actually done the work, &/or never been trained to make life and death decisions.

I would like to see TWO year terms for elected Officers

I know depts that do this and its beter than one year terms, but particularly for chief officers, how do you grow in the job, It takes you a year to figure out the basics then you start a project and by the time its 1/2 way done you are out and the next chief is not interested in it.

[x129K 1,393]

Many of the posts have talked about the number of years needed (2, 3, 5 etc.) But that does not cover experience. Can (or should) a firefighter be promoted to LT. if hey have never actually been on the line or performing a real search inside a working structure fire?

VFD's are one of the only organizations that will allow someone who has never actually done the work, &/or never been trained to make life and death decisions.

I know depts that do this and its beter than one year terms, but particularly for chief officers, how do you grow in the job, It takes you a year to figure out the basics then you start a project and by the time its 1/2 way done you are out and the next chief is not interested in it.

EXACTLY! Exfreakingzactly!

[Remember585 815]

I know depts that do this and its beter than one year terms, but particularly for chief officers, how do you grow in the job, It takes you a year to figure out the basics then you start a project and by the time its 1/2 way done you are out and the next chief is not interested in it.

I've often thought the same exact thing. Then it dawned on me, if you have two years at 2nd Assistant Chief, two years at 1st Assistant Chief and those two years as the Chief, that gives you six years to make progress - assuming the ones ahead of and behind you are on board. The bottom line is that a department needs to have goals that they want to achieve, for example, "we want every member trained in extrication." (This is just a hypothetical statement!) The three Chiefs have to agree on this objective, develop a plan to get it done and actually implement that plan.

As Line Officers in most departments, we aren't exposed to the administrative side of the department. We know little to nothing about budgets, disciplinary action and all of the little things outside of the fire scene. PAPERWORK - something as simple as putting a date, times, location, nature of call and actions taken - literally intimidates people. When I was Captain and I did my monthly reports, there were so many run sheets with no narrative. So many people don't realize that these "annoying" run sheets may save your a** down the road. Take five minutes to write down as many details as you can. It doesn't happen often, but occassionally a homeowner or an insurance company may want to know information about an incident, and if it isn't written down, perhaps you didn't do it!

I'm glad to see that this thread has continued to stay positive, with feedback from so many people. Good job, Bravo'ers!

[Remember585 815]

John, I will develope a officers course and provide it at the county level.

AWESOME! Thank you! And if I can help in any way, please let me know.

[rbuchjr 0]

Volunteerism is continuing to decrease, especially in the fire service. What can you do to mitigate situations where members are being "pushed" to hold an office, because they are the most suited for the job, even if they aren't qualified?

Do you begin to just eliminate some offices? I.E. just get rid of a Lieutenant's office.

Although time, knowledge, training, and experience are imperative for officer's to have, smaller volunteer departments continue to have problem filling officer's role with adequately qualified personnel. These situations usually put the new, 2-3 year firefighter in an officer's role because he is around and willing to help wherever he can.