The Status Of Hartsdale's Truck Company AKA TL-15

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hear a rumor that Hartsdale tower is out of service and New Fairfield's old Seagrave after some repairs is going to serve as its backup until the tower ladder is back in service. Any truth to the rumor?

[x635 4,066]

Is Tower Ladder 15 possibly going out for a much needed rechasis and aerial rebuild?

When I worked there, that truck had a lot of problems....it's out of service just as much as it's in. With the amount of money they've invested in repairs, I'm sure they could have bought a new truck. That truck has an underpowered engine, weak transmission, and poorly matched rear diff. The aerial has been plagued with numerous hydraulic and electrical problems, and is about 15 years old now. It was born during that "dark time" at Aerialscope in the mid-90's.

I really hope, with the new Chief (who was the one to teach me how to use this truck on an incline), they do the right thing and send it back to Seagrave in Wisconsin for a rechasis and rebuild/upgrade. If they can afford it. It's still a very vaulable, strong firefighting truck and perfect for Hartsdale, just needs some real TLC from the manufacturer.

Due to it being out of service numerous times for extensive periods of time, and now that there's a new Chief, I hope someone can fill us in on what's going on.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When I worked there, that truck had a lot of problems....it's out of service just as much as it's in. With the amount of money they've invested in repairs, I'm sure they could have bought a new truck. That truck has an underpowered engine, weak transmission, and poorly matched rear diff. The aerial has numerous hydraulic and electrical problems, and is about 15 years old now. It was born during that "dark time" at Aerialscope in the mid-90's.

If there are so many issues with this unit is worth it to rebuild / rechassis?

In investigating the costs I found you save approximatly the resale value so bying new and taking the trade in is almost the same, but you end up 100% new and the old one stays in town until the new unit arrives. Otherwise your only ladder is out of town for months.

It's still a vaulable truck and perfect for Hartsdale, just needs some real TLC from the manufacturer.

Can you explain why you think it is perfect for Hartsdale?

[x635 4,066]

If there are so many issues with this unit is worth it to rebuild / rechassis?

In investigating the costs I found you save approximatly the resale value so bying new and taking the trade in is almost the same, but you end up 100% new and the old one stays in town until the new unit arrives. Otherwise your only ladder is out of town for months.

Can you explain why you think it is perfect for Hartsdale?

Because a new Aerialscope can be rechasised, upgraded, and rebuilt for a lot cheaper then buying a new Aerialscope (boom). The body is still in good condition as well.

This unit is perfect for Hartsdale for many reasons. The bucket allows high water flow, and can flow water into taxpayers at street level or elevated. The Aerialscope is a bruit, and can rescue many people in the bucket, which is important giving Hartsdale has a lot of apartment buildings with only access to one exposure. A lot of these buildings house elderly people, and is perfect for rescue. The jacking system allows it to be set up on tight streets, such as East Hartsdale Avenue. And, all Hartsdale firefighters are well versed in it's operation.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This unit is perfect for Hartsdale for many reasons. The bucket allows high water flow, and can flow water into taxpayers at street level or elevated. The Aerialscope is a bruit, and can rescue many people in the bucket, which is important giving Hartsdale has a lot of apartment buildings with only access to one exposure. A lot of these buildings house elderly people, and is perfect for rescue. The jacking system allows it to be set up on tight streets, such as East Hartsdale Avenue. And, all Hartsdale firefighters are well versed in it's operation.

Good answer, this vehicle sounds like a good fit for the type of structures in the district,

1) now how many ff's are required to operate this unit based on manufacturers insructions, NYS Law and Generally accepted practices (which can be used in court)?

2) How many ff's are assigned to respond on this unit and if less than #1 above, how do they make up the difference in a timely enough manor to do all the things you outlined above?

[x635 4,066]

Good answer, this vehicle sounds like a good fit for the type of structures in the district,

1) now how many ff's are required to operate this unit based on manufacturers insructions, NYS Law and Generally accepted practices (which can be used in court)?

2) How many ff's are assigned to respond on this unit and if less than #1 above, how do they make up the difference in a timely enough manor to do all the things you outlined above?

When I was there, and I doubt they increased staffing that I know of since, only one (on occasion and very lucky if there was 2) firefighters werte assigned to the TL when it responded in district. That's not acceptable at all, but this ladder is compartively easy to use with one person. Most Hartsdale firefighter (and to pass probation) have to be able to set it up and get it flying in under 2 minutes) On mutual aid, they usually sent a captain from E170 and 2 ff's along with the firefighter/driver assigned to the TL.

Hopefully the new Chief, if the commisioners who have the ultimate say, approved additional staffing on the ladder. The old excuse for not staffing it properly was, since it is a combination department, that the volunteers would fill in the staffing gap. Problem is, most of the active volunteers are now career firefighters in the department. The majority of the rest that exist of the volunteers are getting on in years, or can't be depended on consistently to provide the needed manpower. I never believed that the old Chief viewed the ladder as a "truck company", rather more of an "appliance" that was cross staffed.

It's also interesting to note, the old Chief was fanatical about having Ladders in house. Hartsdale used to have 2 old ALF ladders that they used to swap out when one would go out of service (I'm sure Chief Raftery has more on that). Other times when it's gone out of service, they've had Fairview station their Ladder 1 in house or Hartsdale would send the person assigned to TL-15 to Fairview to work with L-1, and it would respond on all Hartsdale as well as Fairview alarm.

I don't currently work there, and my information are based on the time I served with the department and the consistency/reliability of the sources of information I recieved regarding the above statements..

[wraftery 1,275]

1. Leave it to be said that certain persons and the last HFD Chief were not the best of friends.

2. If you have 6 story OMD's you need a ladder on the 1st alarm assignment. You call it fanatical, I call it nesessary. Note that the present Chief is also making sure there a ladder on the 1st Alarm assignment.

3. Yes, HFD had 2 ladders at one time. When one ALF went out for refurb, we bought one from WPFD so we would have a ladder. When the reurb was done with, we kept the other as a reserve. Why? Not because thhe Chief was fanatical about ladders, but because both Greenville & Fairview had spare engines, but none of the three had a spare ladder.

4. When there was no spare ladder among the three districts, plans were to make sure every dept always had a ladder on the 1st alarm assignment. Most times, this was done by assigning another FD's ladder to be first due via Automatic Mutual aid. A FF was usually assigned to that apparatus to act as a guide. There was a time that both Hartsdale's and Greenville's ladders were OOS. The Fairview ladder was then put at HFD Sta 2 because that station is centrally located, and covered three FD's.

5. The baker was bought when Mack just got out of the TL business. Baker Boom tried to do it like a general contractor and blew it. Many of us wanted to refuse acceptance, but the Board did not agree. They are rugged, and since there is only one set of outriggers, you can gain about 8 ft closer by putting that outrigger between two parked cars.

6. Yes, Barry, it takes at least two to operate the aerial one up, one down. We have to steal one from an engine. Do I like that? Of course not. But in the 2010 economy, I don't see NFPA manning in the forseeabe future. The action plan now is to avoid layoffs. (By the way, we professionals operate their buckets, we don't fly them.) Is consolidtion the answer? Maybe. But everybody has to do it for it to work. And the bigger the Dept, the bigger the layoffs.

I think I covered it all.

[Raz 14]

Depending on the tour commander, TL-15 has either one or two firefighters assigned to it. The staffing level of a given tour doesn't fluctuate, it's just left to the tour commander's discretion as to how he wants the men assigned. Some commanders like three FF's on Engine 169, with one on the ladder; some like the two and two approach. Regardless of the staffing configuration between E169 and TL15, E170 always has three FF's and an officer. These numbers assume that no one is out sick/injured/on vacation.

Fairview has been covering while the ladder is OOS, with Scarsdale covering while Fairview's own ladder was down shortly. Greenville already provides automatic mutual aid in the form of an engine, therefore their ladder wasn't factored in as a viable coverage apparatus.

[x635 4,066]

(By the way, we professionals operate their buckets, we don't fly them.)

I think I covered it all.

Sorry my terminology wasn't correct and "professional". I've often heard the term "fly" from many other professionals in the field.

I wasn't using "fanatical" as a negative. I was just trying to say that he always made sure there was a ladder in Hartsdale (a good thing given the afformentioned exposure issue), yet it was quite ironic the he accepted the current ladder being OOS as frequently as it was, and also never really properly staffed it. Having 1 man drive that truck, especially through the tight streets of Hartsdale, is ridiculous. If having an aerial is so important, so is having the people to operate it. Hartsdale can afford to spend the money to have a "Desk Watch" person, when 60 Control provides the service for free and that person could instead be free'd up and placed on the ladder....or they could have joint dispatched with Fairview, etc. But I know Hartsdale does not like or trust 60 Control for a variety of reasons.

Towards the end of my time there, they installed a "back up camera"- however it wasn't a modern one, it was the cheapest on you buy that was meant for RV's and had a large bulky CRT (old school) monitor that wasn't color-only green and black-that also obstructed the view of the windshield. Because the Chief at the time didn't want to spend the money a modern, color, fully featured back up camera found on many common fire apparatus, ambulances, Fed Ex vehicles, etc.....

Also, the Chief at the time wasn't big about replacing apparatus on a timely basis. The department has always seem to place a "band aid fix" on aqquiring and replacing apparatus, and spending so much on repairs and stop-gap measures that they could have had enough for a proper life cycle replacement plan. How old were the ALF ladders when they were replaced?

There were plenty of times in Hartsdale's budget history that would have allowed for both. As far as manpower, the commisioners always used the volunteers as a reason to not properly staff it, as was told the commisioners.

My opinions are based on the experiences I had working and living in Hartsdale.

[ny10570 745]

Isn't that the same Baker/Aerialscope that was slapped onto Pleasntville's old TL5? If it is, there's all ready an engineer's work-up of how to upgrade the boom to the latest Aerialscope specs. The final blueprint was awaiting P'ville choosing to re-chassis.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Was looking through x635 photos, but I can't find one of the Tower Ladder. Can anybody give us a link to a photo, so we can see the rig in question?

[Remember585 815]

X635 Photos of TL15

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Depending on the tour commander, TL-15 has either one or two firefighters assigned to it. The staffing level of a given tour doesn't fluctuate, it's just left to the tour commander's discretion as to how he wants the men assigned. Some commanders like three FF's on Engine 169, with one on the ladder; some like the two and two approach. Regardless of the staffing configuration between E169 and TL15, E170 always has three FF's and an officer. These numbers assume that no one is out sick/injured/on vacation.

Fairview has been covering while the ladder is OOS, with Scarsdale covering while Fairview's own ladder was down shortly. Greenville already provides automatic mutual aid in the form of an engine, therefore their ladder wasn't factored in as a viable coverage apparatus.

When members are out for vaca/sick, where does that manpower get taken from? Just my opinion, but I'd much rather have a two man truck. At least you can depend on a two-man entry/search team going interior, or an immediate exterior life rescue using the aerial platform or ground ladder/s.

Apparatus operation: How does one man safely back up a behemoth like this TL? Cameras are supposed to supplement actual eyes behind the rig no? Must be a joy backing it into the bay.

Rig itself: Those manual front jacks must be a pain, possible delays deploying the aerial? Always liked that type of outriggers on the sides though (never had them on my job, mostly had Seagrave sticks, then also an ALF/LTI).

When it's working properly, it must have pretty good strength. What is the lift capacity at full extension? 1000 lbs or more?

Edit: thanks for the link R585 K.

Edited March 14, 2010 by efdcapt115

[Raz 14]

When members are out for vaca/sick, where does that manpower get taken from? Just my opinion, but I'd much rather have a two man truck. At least you can depend on a two-man entry/search team going interior, or an immediate exterior life rescue using the aerial platform or ground ladder/s.

Manpower is allowed to drop to 6 (between the two engines and the ladder) before OT is used to fill vacancies.

Apparatus operation: How does one man safely back up a behemoth like this TL? Cameras are supposed to supplement actual eyes behind the rig no? Must be a joy backing it into the bay.

Someone is always supposed to be present to help the driver back up the rig. Whether that person is a rider on the truck, or a firefighter from another rig, will vary.

Rig itself: Those manual front jacks must be a pain, possible delays deploying the aerial? Always liked that type of outriggers on the sides though (never had them on my job, mostly had Seagrave sticks, then also an ALF/LTI).

The front and rear jacks, like the outriggers, are hydraulically powered.

When it's working properly, it must have pretty good strength. What is the lift capacity at full extension? 1000 lbs or more?

It does have a lot of strength, but I couldn't tell you any specifics and be confident about the numbers.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Raz

[x635 4,066]

ALL photos taken by and © me and are posted on http://www.x635Photos.com (my photo site)

Here's an example of TL-15, when properly positioned, can reach three sides of the building:

Here's another photo of TL-15 from the working end:

TL15 set up in front of one of the many multiple story OMD's on East Hartsdale Ave:

TL15 at a working fire:

TL15 at another scene:

A posed shot:

And me traning on TL-15 (when I was younger, healthier, and skinnier-I miss those days lol):

I have many more TL-15 in operation shots that aren't posted as well, will try and add them this week to my photo site http://www.x635photos.com

Also note the majority of these shots were obtained off duty...I lived 1 block from Station 1. And all photos taken by an © me.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The front and rear jacks, like the outriggers, are hydraulically powered.

Thanks Raz, had a total brain f*rt on that. I was having ALF flashbacks with the swing down front jack that was always a pleasure to lay in the snow and deploy...

A rig this size could never have manual jacks...doy.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Nice shots Seth. I must admit, I've been remiss at truly checking out the body of work you have in your photo site. Truly impressive. Thank you for sharing it all.

[wraftery 1,275]

Sorry. While I was looking for pics, Seth was posting them

Edited March 14, 2010 by wraftery

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Sorry. While I was looking for pics, Seth was posting them

Nice job spotting it inside those overhead wires! Thread the needle....

[x635 4,066]

Chief, great shot of the elevated reach capability of TL-15 in back of Station 1!

It does have a lot of strength, but I couldn't tell you any specifics and be confident about the numbers.

Let me see if I can remember correctly.

The platform can sit on the ground about 30 feet from the truck. When retracted, the boom has a capacity of 5,000lbs. It can lift 1,500 lbs. With two personel in the bucket, capacity is 1,000lbs. And I think it can flow around 2000 GPM max. This matches my Hartsdale handout which also matches the Baker brochure for that time period.

BTW, here is the Aerialcope rechasis brochure:

http://my.seagrave.com/ContentManager/DocLibrary/Aerialscope%20II%20brochure_f2.pdf

[wraftery 1,275]

Nice job spotting it inside those overhead wires! Thread the needle....

IF YOU ARE DIRECTLY UNDER THE OH WIRES, YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR AERIAL AT 90 DEGREES TO HIT THOSE WIRES

[Raz 14]

Thanks Raz, had a total brain f*rt on that. I was having ALF flashbacks with the swing down front jack that was always a pleasure to lay in the snow and deploy...

A rig this size could never have manual jacks...doy.

You're not alone, I thought the same thing when I first saw it. Especially because the jacks have to be manually pinned in place after they're dropped. I had never worked with a ladder like that, and assumed that they had to be manually dropped.

[x635 4,066]

Especially because the jacks have to be manually pinned in place after they're dropped.

Not to mention having to place the pads too before you lower the jacks and outriggers....

[wraftery 1,275]

On levem ground, you can drop all 6 jacks at the same time...much quicker than one at a time.

The jacks have to be pinned as a safety factor in case of "weeping" of hydraulic pressure or catastrophic hydraulic failure.

On solid pavement, the additional placing of jack pads is not necessary. HFD's SOP's require jackpads all the time (as do the SOP's of many FD's).

[x635 4,066]

Another couple of shots of TL-15 in action. All photos © and by me.

And from http://www.x635Photos.com

[16fire5 693]

On levem ground, you can drop all 6 jacks at the same time...much quicker than one at a time.

The jacks have to be pinned as a safety factor in case of "weeping" of hydraulic pressure or catastrophic hydraulic failure.

On solid pavement, the additional placing of jack pads is not necessary. HFD's SOP's require jackpads all the time (as do the SOP's of many FD's).

While this was the case with the rigs of the 90s the new rigs seem to be very tempermental without pads down. Without the pads we can't get the aerial out of the bed with any incline involved. While the rig can have both outrigers (we call them tormentors) and all 4 jacks placed simultaneously the controls are on the drivers side even with the pedestal so the officers side tormentor is blind to the operator and requires a second member to visualize placement.

As for the baker and now seagrave they make a very stable platform with room to rescue families at a time. The working load is excellent. The TL also make a great high point for tech rescue ops. In confined space incidents in particular it eliminates the legs of the tripod that are always in the way.

[wraftery 1,275]

While this was the case with the rigs of the 90s the new rigs seem to be very tempermental without pads down. Without the pads we can't get the aerial out of the bed with any incline involved. While the rig can have both outrigers (we call them tormentors) and all 4 jacks placed simultaneously the controls are on the drivers side even with the pedestal so the officers side tormentor is blind to the operator and requires a second member to visualize placement.

As for the baker and now seagrave they make a very stable platform with room to rescue families at a time. The working load is excellent. The TL also make a great high point for tech rescue ops. In confined space incidents in particular it eliminates the legs of the tripod that are always in the way.

I missed those points, Lieu, thanks. HFD's Baker has jack controls on 2 sides but normally only the driver does the jacking. Preferrably the second man 'safety spots" the curbside outrigger. (He can look thru a place in front of the turntable and see the driver + radio comm) He then pins the curbside jacks.

Jack controls on the pedestal? What a concept! You should go for the Patent.

Edited March 16, 2010 by wraftery

[x635 4,066]

Apparently. last week a Yonker Mack CF Baker Aerialscope that was previously on loan to Pelham Manor, was seen in Hartsdale's Station 2 back bay being evaluated.

Also, as mentioned, New Fairfield's old ladder is being loooked at, but it needs a new rear axle (hard to find the correct one)

Other options being considered is remounting the Hartsdale boom on Pleasantville's old TL-5, and of course, a rechasis and upgrade of the current TL.

The members of Hartsdale traveled to Wisconsin last week to meet with Seagrave, discuss their options, and see first hand what Seagrave can do in house.

A decision has not officially been made.

[FF402 133]

While Hartsdale's TL-15 is at Seagrave in Wisconsin getting major repair or who knows what they decided to due, I believe they were looking to rent or buy New Fairfield's old 198? Seagrave 100' rearmount. Haven't heard much more.

Does anyone know if Hartsdale took possesion of this truck? If so, from bits and pieces I have heard, whoever purchased it and was operating it at the time was involved in an MVA recently where it ran off the road into a yard. I know the rear axle was bad, was this a mechanical failure? And is everyone OK?

[x635 4,066]

http://www.lohud.com/article/20100519/NEWS02/5190386/1018/Hartsdale-firetruck-runs-off-road

Hartsdale doesn't seem to be having much luck with aerials.....glad no one was hurt Hopefully they will get a brand new or refurbished TL-15 back as soon as possible...