Taking Apparatus Out Of Service For Parades

[Guest BJM123]

I have a Question,

How many pieces of apparatus do your departments bring to a parade ?.and does anybody stay back to cover ? I've been to parades where departments leave from the line of march to respond back to thier own districts. Even when the parade was far away. Just wondering.

[LCFD968 10]

Lake Carmel Is going with 1 rig this year. It usually 2, our 2 tanker 44 and 41. We never had anyone on standby before while we were at the parades.

[mstrang1 213]

It is my opinion, and not the opinion of my department, that both manpower and apparatus be left behind to respond to any calls. It is our responsibility first and foremost to respond to alarms. I have discussed this in other threads before, and not enough departments leave manpower and apparatus behind, especially for the HVVFA Parade held upstate, which many departments take most of the manpower and some APPARATUS away for the duration of a WEEKEND! The taxpayers paid SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS for that "toy" that gets schlepped up, on taxpayer fuel, to Lake George, out of service for 3 days!

Remember when you bought that new Engine, Tower, Rescue, whatever, and you told the Town and the taxpayers how VITAL it was to have this new piece of equipment to ensure the safety of the residents?! Well, it is not doing any good 200 miles away, or for that matter all the way across county!

[LCFD968 10]

Wow, I am in shock. What are you trying to say here? We talk about pride, we talk about not getting thanks from the genaral public and that pride is our paycheck.

The members of each department spend weeks if not months specing out these trucks and then spend countless hours if not weeks cleaning it. When they march down that road with the Big Shiny fire truck it makes it all worth it.

While I will agree with you about one thing there is no reason for the rigs to out of service for 3 days, but this is why we have mutual aid contracts. If a department is going have a rig out of service for a duration of time (not including OLD BETSY)the Chiefs should make the neccessary arraingments and call for automatic mutual aid from another department and put them on stand by or right to the scene.

Why do we march in parades? Not take away from the taxpayers but to show off to them on what we can do. Just my opinion.

[mstrang1 213]

You can have pride in your fire department without going to parades. My problems is also "and then spend countless hours if not weeks cleaning it." Instead of spending so much time cleaning the apparatus, why not spend that much time training how to PROPERLY use the equipment? And I get more pride out of saving someones house or life, or resolving whatever emergency we are called to handle than I EVER got at a parade!

And you bring up Mutual Aid. If your Rescue/Engine is going to be out of town for an extended period of time and that apparatus holds your only hydraulic rescue tool, it would be advisable to warn neighboring depts that you may need their services for that time period, which usually happens. But when you are told, if getting called to an mva, to go investigate the scene on a major interstate, and if a hydraulic tool is needed, to call the neighboring dept, you are stuck with a thumb up your a$$ for upwards of 10 minutes while they respond. And of course, all the dept officers are at the parade, so the first on scene are a bunch of firefighters with (maybe) an ex officer. This situation is not one that a Chief should leave his/her firefighters in.

"Why do we march in parades? Not take away from the taxpayers but to show off to them on what we can do. Just my opinion."

We only show them we can walk in a straight line with a clean fire engine behind us. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true. And to tie it in with another ongoing thread, when the members all have open containers of alcohol all over the place before and after the parade, it shows the general public that what we do, we do it while drinking beer at 11 on Saturday Morning!

Sorry for the long RANT, but it is something that has bothered me for a long time.

[Guest chief865]

In my department, we work hard and play hard. That's what keeps us sane most of the time. If you want, you can speak directly for your department instead of generalizing for other departments. I can speak for mine and say that we cover our calls, train hard and work to keep our apparatus presentable. So, if we can give a little back to our members who enjoy going to parades, then so be it. And yes, we do have members like yourself who don't like going to parades, who do cover the calls in our district. We also train all our members about being able to "IC" a call. In addition to a situation when an officer is unavailable, it also helps motivate them in becoming the future officers of the department. At this point, I'm confident the majority of our members can "cover" a call.

As for taking apparatus to a distant convention, what do you do when a piece of apparatus is out of service for mechanical reasons? Your answer should be that you get coverage for it and move any necessary equipment to another apparatus. The same should be applied to the long distance parades.

[JBE 328]

I don't particularly see a problem with sending one or two rigs to a parade. As for the drinking. I've already spoken my peace about this. Don't get me wrong, I have knocked back a few at parades, but kept it in moderation and always had a ride to and from.

Here's something I wanted to run past you guys for your thoughts. I used to date a girl whose dad was a volunteer. This is something that used to drive her insane. I didn't understand it at first, but after a while I kinda agreed with her. What is your opinion of non members of a department wearing the uniform hats of its members, IE. wives, girlfriends wearing the hat.

I find this incredibly disrespectful. It demeans the pride behind the uniform. That, and when you put that cap on, you hold it by the shield or the top above the shield, and not the brim. (That's the ex-military guy in me)

And another thing. Is it really necessary for a department to go tear assing on a rig with lights and sirens out of a parade after winning a trophy, be it best non reg or best overall?? Not to mention the whooping and hollering... Call me a curmudgeon but I never understood why this happened.

Awards and trophies don't mean squat if you can't perform where it counts.

As for mstrangs "negative" comments, he does make some valid points. Yes you can show pride, and get your rig shined up. Yes, you can march and show off your pride in your uniform. But can you do the job when the poop is hitting the fan??

Look at all the black eyes and disrespute that has been brought upon Fire Departments NATIONWIDE!!! We aren't the darlings of the public/media lately. Too many knuckleheads are sullying the good names of all who serve and who came before. It needs to stop.

Soapbox AQ...

[mstrang1 213]

My Volunteer dept, I am sorry to say, is a "parade department". The officers in the department do not let the apparatus get set up the way it should, because it looks sloppy for parade season. Training gets put off to clean appaaratus for parades. Ask a new member when classes are being held at the training center, s/he may or may not know, but they sure as hell know when the parades are. Ask a new member how to hook a hydrant, vent a roof search a room, crib a car, and they might know, but ask them how to wash a fire engine, they know that answer well! And I am sorry to bash my OWN DEPARTMENT. Also, the fact is that the most active responders are also the ones that go to the most parades. SO they are taking all the most active firefighters and all of the officers out of town at the same time. Not good in my book!

Why don't I become an officer and try to change all that? Because everyone knows my opinions on things, and they would either not vote me in as officer, or would punish me for my ideals. Excuse me for wanting my family protected by a well trained fire department as opposed to clean fire engines. And yes, I have been involved in the fire service for over 10 years, the last 4 as a career firefighter.

[ja3kfd 34]

Well I will Chime in my 2 Cents :

I am an Ex Chief , I feel that yes go too parades behave yourself take pride in yourself and your department, I have not agreed and never will agree about putting more emphasis on parades and marching then Fire fighting it says on every thing we Have Fire Department ,I Personally have said If I wanted to March all the Time I would have joined a Band or ( No Offense to Armed Forces I could not Join I tried but was refused for Asthma) I would Join them and March. My Dept. Likes to March yes they even put that thought into all our apparatus when built. I always had a Stand by or told my neighbors when we were marching and would put them on dual dispatch for structure and PIAA call always did it. And yes I have been a member of my dept. for over 20 years

[fitzjr11 17]

Speaking of parades- does anyone know the history of a parade? Why we march so neatly and quietly, why depts carry flowers? A parade history is to honor the deceased fire fighters- we salute the grandstand to salute the deceased members.

Parades are not about shinny trucks and uniforms but honoring those who went before us.

[Guest DADAY]

Are we all gonna argue about the whole parde thing again this summer. I thought we all had enough of it last year.

[LCFD968 10]

Speaking of parades- does anyone know the history of a parade? Why we march so neatly and quietly, why depts carry flowers? A parade history is to honor the deceased fire fighters- we salute the grandstand to salute the deceased members.  

Parades are not about shinny trucks and uniforms but honoring those who went before us.

Thats where pride and tradition come in. Fitz hit right on the head. How many of us actually knew this?

Mstrang, is putting the rig in parade "mode" putting the members life in jepordy? Is it unsafe in any manor that the members can't perform there duties? I know I haven't heard of anyone getting hurt or dieing due to truck being ready for the parades. I am proud to say that the department I belong to trains profusely and goes to parades to give back to its members. We do it professionally and love every minute of it.

[x648eng119 2]

Depending on the location of the parade, and what rigs are in service, Croton will usually bring an Engine, our TL, and the rescue to parades further away. (The tanker will go sometimes when it is in service.) Closer parades, like Ossining, Montrose, etc we will usually bring 2 engines, the TL, and the Rescue. We always leave something back to cover the village. If the TL is out, usually Ossining has one or both of their trucks back if we need help.

[firemn23 8]

Two things. Does a department that has multiple companies have all the companies go or not, I and Mstrang are from a 1 company department. I get Mstrang's point we go to Mamaroneck and bring a ladder, an engine, an antique, and 30 guys. We only have 2 engines and a quint, antique and 40 active members. My issue is we hold back guys from the training center to cover our district on a drill night but not to a parade. But my main post was not to create a war but to establish freindship amongst other departments. Also dont think because you are an officer means you have a say.

[Guest BJM123]

Nobody should bring a tanker to a parade ! You have tankers because you don't have hydranys, correct ? I know the chance

of having an actual fire are slim because you don't have one everyday, but you should not take that risk.

[EJS1810 7]

Every one of our Engines is a Tanker

[x648eng119 2]

We usually only bring a Tanker to parades close to home, and it leaves right after. If we do bring it far away, we try and make sure our closest neighbors with tankers, Yorktown and Millwood are leaving theirs back. Last year, however, this wasn't an issue, and at the rate we are going, it doesn't look like it will be one this year!

[emt301 4]

In my department, only limited apparatus and manpower are sent to any given parade, unless its in our own district. Our tower ladder usually goes, along with 1 engine....leaving multiple engines, tankers, utilities, a squad, and a heavy rescue in service. In terms of aerials, our neighboring departments keep at least one of theirs in service, and available for coverage if needed.

Our priority first and foremost is the safety of our taxpayers, and we never strip our district for the sake of showing our pride at parade, or enjoying ourselves at an installation dinner. Aside from relying on a neighbor's aerial at times, we don't like to rely on mutual aid to cover us during social events...that's not why we're here, and it isn't the level of service that people in our town are paying for.

[Truck4 48]

Is it a problem when you send your rig to a funeral?

Parades are a tremendous form of public relations. Good PR for you, who in most towns, the people don't see you or your equipment (yep, the stuff they pay taxes for in most cases) often. The common person doesn't buff the towns two or three jobs a year to see what you do. But they'll talk about how great you looked at the parade and remember you when it comes time to vote for the new firehouse bonds.

You have to step out of the boots for a minute and look at it from the residents POV. Even in surrounding towns. Let the people see that the department next door is impressive and will be there when they are needed.

Nothing wrong with moderation and covering your a** either when it comes to who goes and what stays.

[emt301 4]

Truck4....

I agree with you totally...moderation is the key.

Fine to send a rig or two & some manpower....the problem arises when the majority of a departments rigs & manpower are going to a particular function and are taken out of service, basically taking the department itself out of service. Some departments have a mutual aid engine relocate into quarters as coverage, but is that 1 engine really adequate coverage when the call for a working fire comes in?

Bottom line is that we have a responsibility to cover our own districts...that's what the residents expect of us.

[PVFD113 6]

We go to parade's--those who want to. We still have ample manpower as well as deputy chief's to cover the town. As far as apparatus--that's where the chief should use his/her head.

You never bring all of one piece (unless you have more than that. We have 3 pumpers (2 attack,1 source). The attacks truck don't go (not that they are really parade able so to speak but we do have 2 tankers--we would never bring both--nor would we bring both pieces of apparatus carring our Jaws. It all comes down to planning and using your head. As for setting up and cleaning your apparatus--never forget what it is--a fire truck. First and foremost. Clean it but don't kill yourselves--that takes away from the "fun" of parades

[Lieut2 0]

Parades are a important part of the F.D. they display company pride and comaraderie that carry over to working together in the field. My compaint is with the equipment that goes to the parades. I once saw EVERY LADDER COMPANY in the town of mount pleasant go to a parade in Mount Kisco. If we had a fire you could not even call mutual aid and find a truck co. Most Dept's have a antique or reserve engine that could be cleaned up, and stay that way longer than a front line piece, take that to the parade

[doug_e 0]

A quick read through the posts on this subject brought to mind a few thoughts about parades. In no particular order:

We work in a "what if" world and everything we do is geared for that worst case scenario. I was taught, "Plan for your worst fire; not your last fire", by some salty old guy who probably forgot more about firefighting that I’ll ever know. Departments should, and probably do, take the necessary steps to cover their responsibilities. A more regional view should be employed to ensure that the overall suppression capabilities aren't diminished beyond the point of containment. Work with surrounding departments to provide adequate coverage for your communities during an event.

Our brotherhood extends throughout the emergency services community and parading opportunities solidify those relationships.

The preparation for parades helps the department in a number of ways too. The close look at the apparatus identifies and fixes problems that might otherwise have gone undetected. The effort put into cleaning is a great team building exercise. Dressing in uniform elevates departmental self esteem (espirit d'corps). Having the opportunity to view and inspect other department's apparatus shares ideas and innovations.

I would rather see a "working" piece of apparatus than a "parade" piece. I've bumped into the parade piece mentality when specing rigs and it makes me absolutely crazy! I can't think of, almost, anything you can bolt onto a rig that isn't cool on one level or another.

It keeps those guys who make 6’ wedges in business. 8-[

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

A quick read through the posts on this subject brought to mind a few thoughts about parades. In no particular order:

We work in a "what if" world and everything we do is geared for that worst case scenario. I was taught, "Plan for your worst fire; not your last fire", by some salty old guy who probably forgot more about firefighting that I’ll ever know. Departments should, and probably do, take the necessary steps to cover their responsibilities. A more regional view should be employed to ensure that the overall suppression capabilities aren't diminished beyond the point of containment. Work with surrounding departments to provide adequate coverage for your communities during an event.

Our brotherhood extends throughout the emergency services community and parading opportunities solidify those relationships.

The preparation for parades helps the department in a number of ways too. The close look at the apparatus identifies and fixes problems that might otherwise have gone undetected. The effort put into cleaning is a great team building exercise. Dressing in uniform elevates departmental self esteem (espirit d'corps). Having the opportunity to view and inspect other department's apparatus shares ideas and innovations.  

I would rather see a "working" piece of apparatus than a "parade" piece. I've bumped into the parade piece mentality when specing rigs and it makes me absolutely crazy! I can't think of, almost, anything you can bolt onto a rig that isn't cool on one level or another.

It keeps those guys who make 6’ wedges in business. 8-[

Doug I agree with you 100%. In particular the part where you point out that it enhances the "Espirit d'corps". This is very important for the day to day operations of any department and should not be taken for granted.

As for our department policy, we staff a stand by in quarters. Either from an outside agency, or have some members hang back. I know that in the past on very few occasions we did respond from the parade route because of the close proximity, and the lack of stand by companies available.

It is nice to get out there and parade, but our responsability at home takes priority above all others.

[mstrang1 213]

I'm just gonna put in another 2 cents of my opinion. We have a standby crew come in sometimes , whether it be for a funeral, parade, dinner, etc. We have this because members will be consuming alcohol, at a distant location, or, for a funeral, a quiet place. But what happens as soon as the department is back in district? Station coverage leaves, and the majority of the members may have been drinking. So, if a dept comes to do a standby in our quarters, and we release them at midnight, and at 0100 a fire comes in, and the members that were drinking alcohol a few hours earlier(or still drinking) are the "covering crew". I don't know how often this happens in other departments, but I know it happens in a few of them.

Again, I am just stating what I have seen happen, and am not trying to condemn anyone by relating this.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

Stang. Do the members of your department ever drink other than these functions you have listed? If so, what do you do THEN? I would say follow the same proceedure. Also, if the alcohol is that big a problem, perhaps AA or turning off the taps might help.

[Guest DADAY]

This is a neverending battle between 2 comlpetly different views.

I love parades they are a great pride builder and for younger guys a great time.

I have been part of it for many years, most times a chief would go back to man that town with the guys who dont go.

But even if it wasn't the case, isnt that what officer and ex chief and even deputy chiefs are for.

Also bad things can happen at any tiem there is no way to plan for it. Most time the furthest away is a few hours and lights and sirens cant get you to a major issue that much quicker.

I have been on the scene when all the chiefs were gone and by the end they were back.

[Guest]

That's right Daday - it's a winless argument. People have their own opinions about parades and if Fitzjr11's statement can't sway the opinions, nothing can.

People who don't march in parades don't understand the pride that go along with it. Those who think it's all about trophies and drinking are the ones who don't understand the meaning of pride in a department.

When you have 125 members and 30 or 40 go to a parade, you are hardly depleting your manpower. Of the 30 or 40, how many actually stay till the end? 10 at the most? If a department can't cover a call when 10 of their members are not available, parades are not the issue.

[emt301 4]

PC422....

I understand your point, and to a certain extent I agree....

The problem lies in the fact that many departments state that they have 100, or 125, or even 150 active members....but only 20, or 30, or 40 are truly active. If 10 or 20 of those members go to the parade, manpower truly is being depleted. And in many, if not most departments these days, manpower is a real issue.

I'm all for parades, but we need to rethink how many members we allow to go out of service on a parade.

[4truck48 25]

What's so hard to grasp about this issue. If the rig is out of service, it's out of service. If the manpower at the parade and the rig are so importent then they shouldn't be out of town in the first place.Our first priority is not getting a slap on the back and a few cheers, it's protecting the public. And as far as the Chief's go most dept's have more then one Chief so they should never all be out of town or at a parade at the same time.