Judge Rules Most Recent FDNY Exam is Discriminatory

[M' Ave 1,466]

The nonsense continues..........

NY1 Article

[SageVigiles 1,194]

What? They BUSED MINORITIES IN to the last test and WAIVED the application fee... Besides the fact that half of the questions had at least 3 acceptable answers out of five. I give up on testing for the FDNY, the manure that is their testing process is too thick to wade through anymore.

It was a BS test, but I wouldn't say there was anything discriminatory about it. I scored a 91 after I studied pretty hard between high school classes. People need to just grow up and accept the results. Besides, if you had a problems with the results you could challenge some questions, which I did, and get additional points.

[Just a guy 493]

What a bunch of nonsense. I known I'm not a fire fighter but stuff like this affects us all. This poor me stuff has to stop, enough already ... it should be the same test for EVERYONE !!!! The same written, the same physical, the same EVERYTHING !!!! Take the test, get your results and if you get hired then good for you, if you don't get hired, better luck next time. There is no reason why a judge needs to be involved with this.. and for him to base his ruling in part on budgetary issues in NYC , talk about overstepping your bounds ...

Sorry about the rant guys some things just strike a nerve..

[abaduck 123]

"Judge Nicholas Garaufis says the test discriminates against minority applicants.The ruling blocks the city's plan to hire 300 firefighters.

The judge had previously ruled that two other written exams discriminated against aspiring black and Hispanic firefighters."

This made my blood boil the first time around, and I'm pretty much incandescent now. How the heck can a WRITTEN test discriminate against 'minorities'? HOW? Can someone please explain this to me because I sure as hell don't begin to understand it. You're dumb or you're not. You prepare for the test or you don't.

How can a judge sit there and say that? To even suggest it's POSSIBLE to create a written exam that somehow discriminates against 'minorities' is an appallingly racist thing to say!

Madness.

I've had to be VERY careful to avoid copious profanity and abuse in this post!

Edited August 5, 2010 by abaduck

[mstrang1 213]

Did anyone happen to make it to the last line of the article, stating that the city will be paying 2 MILLION A MONTH in OT costs if they do not hire a class?! I have a 2 suggestions, a) If this judge thinks that every fdny test is biased, why doesn't the all wise garaufis create an unbiased test himself? and maybe he can find the 2 million a month to pay for his decision?

[JAD622 40]

It has gone beyond ridiculous! The writing is on the wall that down the road, written testing will eventually be a thing of the past . How a Judge who has no knowledge of the Fire Service can determine that a written test discriminates against a certain ethnic group(s) is beyond me. If this continues in the direction it's going the day will come where the job will be given away (it's almost there already) to certain individuals with little to no qualifications! What a shame this has become, between the bullseye on our backs due to the terrible economy and this trend of dismantling the testing criteria, the job is doomed! Good luck to all who aspire to be a firefighter. It is becoming very disheartening to watch this job getting ruined by Politicians, Judges and everyone with an axe to grind.

[Ladder44 73]

I forgot the scanner for the scan-tron sheets is racist. I wonder if that judge or every other judge or committee or human resources dept. realize maybe minorities just simply don't wanna be firefighters. I just recently took a FD test, outta 202 test takers there was 1 black male and 2 female testers, I guess I should just get my hopes up on that test and throw it away...

Edited August 5, 2010 by Ladder44

[eckyphats 0]

and you wonder why racism exist....

[mustang22_2002 21]

I love how they say the test is discrimanatory because the minorities aren't that good at reading comprehension ? That is the stupid excuse I've ever heard of !! Just like everything else they just want something for free , that other people work hard for . If i was a minority on the job I would be very upset that something I worked hard for , they just want the city to give them . I also was thinking that if this does go to the higher up courts and is also upheld as being a discriminatory test that I would start my own lawsuit about giving city residence 5 extra point now thats discrimination !!!!

[99subi 121]

What a joke. At the rate this is going ill never be able to get "on the job"........unless i turn black or hispanioc, then im good.......beucase even if i flunk the test ill have someone fighting for me to get the job.............. Being the best for the job is a thing of the past. Now its what color are you and how stupid are you? we can help! Thanks America!

[Alpinerunner 61]

Pretty crazy indeed. I honestly can't think of any race-biased questions besides maybe some history/culture questions. Maybe about how to cook some ethinic foods?!

Most people have some minority in their blood... just put that as your race.

[PEMO3 523]

Does a fire lower its temperature when a minority is on a call or is the smoke suddenly less intense? Do patients become instantly lighter or less complicated? Dumbing down a test for the sake of making it appear non-discriminatory so that more people of a certain ethnic class can pass places not only the general public but everyone in danger. I wonder how the judge would feel if when the crew arrived for a family member of his the transport was delayed because they had to wait for back up because the minority member was not able to perform the carry down. You see he/she took the lower standard test where they carry a gallon of milk down five flights of stairs instead of a full sized manikin.

[gamewell45 258]

The nonsense continues..........

NY1 Article

It'll continue too, until it finally reaches SCOTUS who'll decide once and for all.

[M' Ave 1,466]

It'll continue too, until it finally reaches SCOTUS who'll decide once and for all.

Nah, whether it's helpful in this case or not, it'll just be another cop-out decision that avoids the bigger issue. This is exactly what happened in the case of the New Haven 20. They ruled in favor of the brothers from New Haven who brought suit, and that's great, but they ducked out on the big picture. The didn't address the silliness of Title 7, disparate impact. Scalia did note in his addition to the decision of the court that they would one day have to address this difficult and sensitive topic. Perhaps this will be that day...

The Disparate Impact Clause is nothing more than constitutionally backed racism. The judge ruled that Exam 6019 did not adequately determine who would be a better firefighter candidate. Well, doesn't that effect everyone of every race who took the exam? Nope. If you did poorly and were white, you are just dumb. If you are a member of a so called, "protected class" then it isn't your fault. It's someone else's fault.

Lets hope that right minds prevail and enforce merit. MERIT MATTERS.

www.meritmattersusa.blogspot.com

[JBE 328]

It was discriminatory. Towards intelligent people who actually paid attention in school. I have never seen a dumber test in my entire life.

[ny10570 745]

M'ave hit it. Its all about Disparate impact.

The city was tasked with proving how the exam impacts the job of firefighter. They failed to show that there was any difference in the ability to pass the academy or advance in rank based on performance in the entrance exam. In the absence of evidence that doing better on the test resulted in better firefighters the judge can then infer that the disparate impact on a minorities is a result of discrimination.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Disparate impact is Bravo-Sierra and we all know it, unfortunately the "protected class" laws in this country haven't been updated since the seventies.

[NWFDMedic 58]

A test can certainly be racially biased but given the fact that the city had previously had issues, I'm quite sure they've had their tests reviewed by experts that eliminate the colloquialisms that are often considered to be the source of racial bias. The comment by the Vulcan Society clearly says that they will challenge every written test until there is no longer a written test. Sorry folks, but reading comprehension is part of a firefighter's job. If you are the first due on an assignment and the driver of a commercial vehicle comes up to you with the manifest of that vehicle, you better darn well be able to understand that it says that "this vehicle contains methyl-ethyl-bad-stuff, keep your firefighters away".

I have no problem with double checking a test to make sure it doesn't contain ethnic bias. Throwing the test away, however, is just wrong.

[reme343mber 0]

What I want to see is how the judge would react if people look at this as case law and start to challenge to EMT exams, Police exams, Bar exam for lawyers, and the Medical exams for Doctors, because NWFDMedic said it perfectly, just cause the job may not seem like a lot of reading, if the people cannot answer questions or read a medication list for a patient, how can they help them? Maybe by giving them something they are allergic to and the patient unfortunately dies, thats when this chain will stop...

[JM15 386]

Does that mean everyone who didn't get to take the test for free (non-minoritys) get a refund?

[ny10570 745]

All of those exams except the PD exams are tests of someone's education. Education directly applicable to the job they are training to perform. If the city could have proved that scoring well on the test means better performance in the the academy or on the job the tests would have stood. If the test were on job specific material and all applicants were given prior to the exam then the could would fly.

[bronxfireradio 45]

The term "Disparate Impact" essentially means that one particular demographic that is protected against discrimination by law (age, race, gender, religion, etc.) is negatively affected by some sort of hiring procedure, whether intentional or not.

That term is mostly broadly drawn. But keep in mind that labor laws have an out for employers, something called "legitimate business reasons". Basically an employer has to prove that by hiring a particular protected class, the business would lose money (or in the case of a Fire Department, life and property).

For example, a guy sued Hooters for not being hired as a server. I'm sure he had fantastic manboobs, but Hooters won the case because they proved they could not make as much money with a guy in a skimpy wifebeater vs. a woman.

Nonsense, but this is the world we live in today.

Edited August 6, 2010 by bronxfireradio

[hudson144 150]

To those of you out there who either had a chance to be hired within that 300 roster,or if you know someone who was eligible to be hired its time to "LAWYER UP"! Step up,fight for your rights.I have a phone # of an atty who might be interested in representing you! Biased questions? The case of MOCHA(Men of Color Helping All) vs Buffalo was proven that questions were not biased.The lawsuit was thrown out because they could not prove that a question was biased. Now you want to bring up biased-- because of a certain decree in place questions are deleted under a 4/5ths scoring method.As mentioned before on here, that causes a disparate impact on others because questions were deleted in favor of a certain group of minoritys. When will it end,aren't we all created equally???

[dillondotcom 16]

Its amazing, they were given rides and free exams! Isnt that reverse discrimination? As was said by another post before...there was only 1 black person and 2 women in his classroom! Maybe they dont want the job! The judges just bow to these cases b/c in the times that we live in, telling the truth means your raceist. If I were a miniority on the job I would be insulted by this. Are you trying to say that minorities are too dumb to pass this joke of a test. This county is going down in a ball of flame and fast!

[aviator70 16]

I still have no idea how a test question can be discriminatory.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I still have no idea how a test question can be discriminatory.

It too many minorities get it wrong, it's discriminatory. That's how the law is currently written. It REALLY needs to change.

[aacofd40 6]

All of those exams except the PD exams are tests of someone's education. Education directly applicable to the job they are training to perform. If the city could have proved that scoring well on the test means better performance in the the academy or on the job the tests would have stood. If the test were on job specific material and all applicants were given prior to the exam then the could would fly.

I think that is exactly right. The issue is not as much that the questions or content of the exams are discriminatory, it is the fact that the test itself is no indication of how well someone does in the academy or on the job. The test -in the judge's mind - is not an indicator of success at the academy or on the job, so there is no reason that it should be used in the determination of who gets the job. I think back in the day (during the Koch administration) there was a similar issue that the physical fitness test discriminated against women. The city fought it (I think Koch said something to the effect of he did not care whether it was a male or female fireman, as long as they could carry a 160lb mayor out of a burning building), and won.

So, the ball is really in the city's court to prove that the test is an indicator of success at the academy and on the job.

Be safe,

JR

[FFLieu 70]

I still don't understand how a civil service exam, designed to test an applicant's basic aptitudes, can be construed as discriminatory. As one poster said, according to the law, if too many minorities get a particular question wrong, then it is considered a discriminatory question. But isn't basic aptitude something that is taught (and hopefully learned) in school? Could it be that the school system in NYC is more to blame and not necessarily the fire department?

Discrimination in hiring is saying something on the examination announcement like "Minorities need not apply." However, questions on an exam and the related demographics of those who answered it, either successfully or not, is not discrimination in hiring. We all live in a society where it is too easy to sue, and even easier to cry racism, especially if those who feel slighted are a member of a protected class. Except being too litigious, and anything but moderate in the application of law, will lead to disasterous consequences. This is just another technique to pander to and to pacify a group whose sole existence is to further the concept that anything that goes against their beliefs is, and must be, racism. The sad reality of these rulings will be in several years when we see more instances of fire-related deaths because the newest crops of recruits may not have even been qualified for the job in the first place. It will lead to the watering down of the department, sadly, and it will have grave consequences on the public.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I wouldn't object to the test being more about firefighting because that would give people with experience and/or the motivation to study, an edge. However, the test still isn't discriminating as is.

[Guest]

Then how did they meet the educational requirements?