The New Trend In Safely Backing Up Your Apparatus?

[x635 4,066]

Down here, a majority of departments use David Clark headsets or a similar brand.

The have always had a jack at the pump panel.

However, now I'm see a lot of jacks for headsets at the back of the rig, so that the spotter can communicate directly with the driver.

Does anybody up north empoy this? I think it's pretty smart, better then a backup cam (which is also still useful)

[gpdexplorer 46]

Our guys just use portables. I think its a little safer because it allows the person behind the truck to get a better view because they are able to move about more freely to look for obstructions, etc. and also keeps them further away to avoid any potential accidents of getting hit by the truck.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Wireless would be 1000x better. That way you are not tethered to the rig, the cords only allow you to get so far from the rig. In a large piece of apparatus like the ladder shown, being farther back where the LCC can see you is a much better idea than being 5 feet tops from the back of the rig where they may or may not be able to see you. Just my $0.02.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Our guys just use portables. I think its a little safer because it allows the person behind the truck to get a better view because they are able to move about more freely to look for obstructions, etc. and also keeps them further away to avoid any potential accidents of getting hit by the truck.

Agreed. Portable are easier, cheaper and we are all familiar with their use.

At least we are not still using the bell/buzzer system.

Edited August 2, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[x635 4,066]

Wireless technology is not there yet for the headsets. There are also plugs at the pump panel and on the turntable.

The driver should be focusing on one person, and that's the spotter. No reason to use a portable, and you don't want the driver to take his hands of the wheel to use a mic if he has any questions, etc.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Being "connected" to the truck is a little troubling to me. I rather use hand signals, wireless headsets or a portable radio. Hand signals and being far away from the vehicle in my opinion is far better. Less chatter, not being able to properly describe what you mean (aka say Left when you mean The Driver's Right). With better mirrors and also rear-of-vehicle video cameras, I don't think the need to be connected with a headset to the driver is really needed. And if you area a good apparatus driver, you should be able to back up a rig safely and properly without the need for a spotter, granted its is better to have one.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Wireless technology is not there yet for the headsets. There are also plugs at the pump panel and on the turntable.

The driver should be focusing on one person, and that's the spotter. No reason to use a portable, and you don't want the driver to take his hands of the wheel to use a mic if he has any questions, etc.

Thats just not true. Wireless headsets have been on the market for some time. Look in any major fire service publication. I am willing to guarantee you that at least one of this months major fire service publications will have an advertisement for wireless headsets from Firecom. I have seen them in FireHouse Magazine for about a year or so at least.

http://www.firecom.com/products/wireless-headsets/

Also, whats the matter with using the mic, if he has a question, then he should not be moving in the first place.

The current trend in placement of backup camera's (side, rear etc) is a way bigger step in safely backing up fire apparatus then any corded headset will ever be.

Edited August 2, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[gpdexplorer 46]

Wireless technology is not there yet for the headsets. There are also plugs at the pump panel and on the turntable.

The driver should be focusing on one person, and that's the spotter. No reason to use a portable, and you don't want the driver to take his hands of the wheel to use a mic if he has any questions, etc.

We do have the headsets on our truck, just not on the rear to have that kind of set up. Thats why we use portables. I honestly would not be comfortable using the head set on a 2 foot wire to assist backing up a 40+ foot long, 65,000 pound truck. I cant see anything on the other side of the truck. Accidents happen, and I dont want to be the one in the drivers seat or on the rear headset when something happens. I'd rather be the guy with the portable who is a safer distance from the truck and getting the same job done.

If I'm at the wheel and my spotter says something to me that I need to verbally answer to, I stop the truck and respond to the message or I have whoever else is on the truck respond for me. Yes the driver always pays attention to the spotter, but must also be proficient enough to still scan his/her mirrors. Whether you using a portable or a head set, you're still getting the same message across.

[x635 4,066]

Thats just not true. Wireless headsets have been on the market for some time. .

Yeah, and the agencies down here, some of them have demo'd them and they don't work properly and have heavy interference in some conditions, amongst other things. Just because something's on the market doesn't mean it works perfectly. They keep improving the product, and until it's perfect, some departments down here won't buy it until it proves itself. But I agree a wireless headset is much safer. And most departments use David Clark.

Let's not forget, headsets are used whenver in the apparatus cab as well. This drowns out the siren and other sounds and allows the crew to communicate better and hear radio traffic better, as well as gives them hearing protection.

Until they had an LODD where they backed over a frefighter, LAFD used to stand on the back step and use a buzzer. That firefighter fell of the back and she was subsequently killed when the truck ran her over.

It's also not just for backing up, or even primarily for backing up, but also used to communicate when operating from the rear of the apparatus (outriggers)

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Our two new rigs both came with audio included with the rear-view camera. Which can be turned on with the rear scene lights and when in reverse. Granted the audio is only one way, but these are not ladder trucks so there is no need for two-way communication really.

The camera is nice, but we still trust our spotter mostly in conjunction with mirrors and the rear-view camera.

[wraftery 1,275]

Remember there should only be ONE SPOTTER whatever system you use. "Too many cooks spoil the bodywork"

[JM15 386]

Remember there should only be ONE SPOTTER whatever system you use. "Too many cooks spoil the bodywork"

er

Lol funny you should mention that my departments SOG's state that when available there should be 4 spotters with one on each corner.

[Remember585 815]

Seth,

Are you sure that headset is for a spotter? If I am looking at the photo right, that's a Rear-Mount Truck, and perhaps that jack and headset is for the aerial operator?

I am not a fan of the wired headset to back up a rig. It's like a leash to connect the rig to the spotter - not a good idea at all.

And, I am also not a fan of using portable radios to back people up. It's more chatter on the radio then is needed. Carry one in case you really need it, but don't be one of those "keep coming, keep coming, keep coming, STOP" guys.

A competent driver, a competent spotter making good use of proper hand signals and scene/flood lights will work just fine.

Put the spotter in a safety vest if you have them to improve the driver's ability to see them, as well as any passing cars.

And, if you have to back up without a spotter (which we've all done) scan your mirrors!

[firegui 24]

Yeah, and the agencies down here, some of them have demo'd them and they don't work properly and have heavy interference in some conditions, amongst other things. Just because something's on the market doesn't mean it works perfectly. They keep improving the product, and until it's perfect, some departments down here won't buy it until it proves itself. But I agree a wireless headset is much safer. And most departments use David Clark.

Let's not forget, headsets are used whenver in the apparatus cab as well. This drowns out the siren and other sounds and allows the crew to communicate better and hear radio traffic better, as well as gives them hearing protection.

Until they had an LODD where they backed over a frefighter, LAFD used to stand on the back step and use a buzzer. That firefighter fell of the back and she was subsequently killed when the truck ran her over.

It's also not just for backing up, or even primarily for backing up, but also used to communicate when operating from the rear of the apparatus (outriggers)

Actually the fire com wireless headsets are excellent. They are on their own frequency ( not bluetooth ) this insures no interference. They can incorporate 2 radios both in the cab as well as at the pump panel. The wireless is good up to 1100 feet line of sight. I have personally been given the demonstration which was totally given over the head sets and it was awesome. I can tell you Somers's new engine will have the Fire Com headsets for the driver and officer.

[RescueKujo 130]

Seth,

Are you sure that headset is for a spotter? If I am looking at the photo right, that's a Rear-Mount Truck, and perhaps that jack and headset is for the aerial operator?

Actually, to me it looks too low for it to be used by the aerial operator...

[antiquefirelt 994]

Remember there should only be ONE SPOTTER whatever system you use. "Too many cooks spoil the bodywork"

That is what we do. All our apparatus have back-up cameras and they are only for use when a spotter is not there (rare). Our spotters use a standard set of hand signals departmentwide which has helped a bit since it's inception two years ago. There are no radios used, it's all visual, if you can't see or tell what the spotter is doing, you STOP.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Actually, to me it looks too low for it to be used by the aerial operator...

That's what I thought too, but it looks fairly short leashed for a spotter. I'd rather the spotter not have to be too close to the truck. The ideal distance should far enough that he can see both rear wheels to start without having to move. If your too close, things happen too fast.

[Alpinerunner 61]

er

Lol funny you should mention that my departments SOG's state that when available there should be 4 spotters with one on each corner.

I don't mean to step on your SOGs... they may work very well for your department. But as a driver, I would NOT want 4 spotters. The whole point of a spotter is so that he can see everything behind you from a good vantage point, and all youh ave to do is focus on him... and your front bumper.

Having to sweep between 4 spotters is just as dangerous as having no spotter IMHO because you have too much to effectievly focus on.

[wraftery 1,275]

That is what we do. All our apparatus have back-up cameras and they are only for use when a spotter is not there (rare). Our spotters use a standard set of hand signals departmentwide which has helped a bit since it's inception two years ago. There are no radios used, it's all visual, if you can't see or tell what the spotter is doing, you STOP.

Ditto

That is the rest of my ONE SPOTTER post. As for 4 spotters...bad idea. It sounds safer but it is not. Any industry that uses spotters,i.e cranes, aircraft, specify that there is to be only one spotter

[JM15 386]

I don't agree with it but thats what is written lol As someone already mentioned our new engine thats coming soon will have the firecomm system. I am unsure about the details of it though.

[markmets415 524]

Wireless would be 1000x better. That way you are not tethered to the rig, the cords only allow you to get so far from the rig. In a large piece of apparatus like the ladder shown, being farther back where the LCC can see you is a much better idea than being 5 feet tops from the back of the rig where they may or may not be able to see you. Just my $0.02.

We are adding the wireless headseats into our specs on the rig we are currently specing now.

[wraftery 1,275]

COMING SOON!

NEW THREAD<<<NEVER BEFORE SEEN!

How to disentangle a back-step coiled headphone cord which has wrapped between the dual wheels.

The spotter yelled STOP when his headset pulled off. The driver didn't hear him because of either the driver headset muffling the sound, or the driver was watching spotter #4 who was swatting at a bee and it looked like the c'mon back signal. The IAFC has issued a stand down on rigs backing up until the situation is resolved.

Don't complicate the things that are simple.

[helicopper 1,050]

Ditto

That is the rest of my ONE SPOTTER post. As for 4 spotters...bad idea. It sounds safer but it is not. Any industry that uses spotters,i.e cranes, aircraft, specify that there is to be only one spotter

Regarding aircraft - there may be wing walkers but it is true that there is only one marshal (spotter) who controls the aircraft movement. The wing walkers report clearances to the marshal who directs the tug moving the aircraft (Sounds alot like ICS - you can only have one IC ).

[FFBlaser 24]

We Have back up cameras in all of our apparatus aside from one of our reserve engines.

[TCD0415 26]

I am guessing it is a Headset for a pump panel that might be behind that Rollup, nothing more.......

[Bnechis 3,961]

We use portables that every on-duty member is assigned. We are also trying a new technology on Rescue 4.

Reverse Control is a wireless hand signaling device that was developped by members of the Los Angeles FD after a backing accident killed a female ff (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

This is the unit:

It works as follows:

You press the button the little light flashes red (test) then goes green (safe to back-up).

When you want the driver to stop you release the button and on the hand unit the little light goes red

When the light on the hand unit is green the lights in the cab are green, when the light is red the lights in the cab are red and a horn goes off in both the cab and in the headsets.

We have 3 lights in the cab; Above the back-up camera screen and on the drivers & officers "A" post in line with the mirrors:

The unit has a 1/4 mile range and the vehicle does not have to be in reverse to work. The idea is simple Red light - Green light and the lights are where the driver normally is looking.

http://reversecontrol.com/

We thought this might be useful for not only backing up but manuvering to position the crane.

In a fleet like LAFD each rig has its own so, you do not have multiple rigs saying stop or go on the radio. Might be a good idea for depts that do not have enough radios for everymember and they dont want to give them one.