LE in GA begin attack on trailer fire...

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Nothing very concrete...the example you presented said nothing concrete as to why the system failed....if anything it simply said the PSD was incompetent at running a fire, doesn't matter the title or system that can happen anywhere...doesn't mean the system is necessarily wrong. TxChief's response was good, and if you read, did not necessarily condemn the system just pointed out the problems that it comes with. No system is perfect...so nothing too opinion altering. As for the response, from what I read the system did not fail at all, but simply was phased out when money came available. What system doesn't spend more when times are better? I'm open to the possibilities, but I need cold hard numbers and evidence, not editorialized opinions or polls.

Hey that's great. Good luck finding your cold hard numbers and evidence. Next time, try clicking a posted link and do a little research maybe? There's a bevy of news reports on the failures at the the North Myrtle Beach Fire and the subsequent actions taken there by civic and civil leadership.

You'll find it at thesunnews.com, but I already posted the link into further investigation, More power to you. Go and change the world.

By the way, the editorial piece about Surfside was written by a retired chief from that department.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I'm sorry but I just can't see how a LE/Fire model can work and save money? Both jobs present incidents that require resources be dedicated to the incident, so if there are not enough resources to do both, one or the other (maybe whichever incident is second) will be neglected. If you have the resources to do both, why not "specialize" and just do one or the other and be damn good at one, not half-arsed at both? I'd like to see a system that works and works well that also saves money. I'll bet those that think it works well and many of us wouldn't agree. How about ongoing training? LE officers only learn to shoot once? Firefighters only need to pass FF1&2 then they're ready for the rest of their careers? Not hardly.

It's not that I don't believe LE officers are capable as of course they surely are. It's a priorities issue and LE has some significant mandates on them to follow very specific courses of action. If the Fire Service was more like LE in this regard we couldn't complain about how there are two standards for the FS, volunteer and career.

[INIT915 1,119]

Hey that's great. Good luck finding your cold hard numbers and evidence. Next time, try clicking a posted link and do a little research maybe? There's a bevy of news reports on the failures at the the North Myrtle Beach Fire and the subsequent actions taken there by civic and civil leadership.

You'll find it at thesunnews.com, but I already posted the link into further investigation, More power to you. Go and change the world.

By the way, the editorial piece about Surfside was written by a retired chief from that department.

So the rest of us can get caught up on the incident in question, can you direct us to a good source? Not an opinion editorial, but rather some official report or something along those lines.

I found this Link, from residents in that community, and they seem to indicate that:

What began April 22, 2009 as a small wildfire on Woodland Drive, off Highway 90, a few miles away from Barefoot Resort, grew into a monster fire, which at its peak, rose nearly 300 feet in the air and in just over a day, consumed roughly 20,000 acres of land, destroying 76 homes and damaging another 92 homes. The Barefoot golf courses were also damaged. And, most of the damaged and destroyed homes were in Barefoot Resort. Despite the efforts of firefighters from the South Carolina Forestry Commission and Horry County, the fire spread and jumped over major highways (31 and 22) and into the Somerset neighborhood of Barefoot along Water Tower Road totally destroying several homes.

A quick google search for actual reports doesn't lead to anything too useful.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

So the rest of us can get caught up on the incident in question, can you direct us to a good source? Not an opinion editorial, but rather some official report or something along those lines.

I found this Link, from residents in that community, and they seem to indicate that:

A quick google search for actual reports doesn't lead to anything too useful.

Well, my suggestion was to follow the link to thesunnews.com, but I should add search that paper for "Barefoot Resort Fire". This is my eyewitness account. I first noticed the fire in the mid-afternoon. I thought from my vantage point in Myrtle Beach it was a structure in Carolina Forest, so I took a ride over the waterway and Rte 31 into the development there. Kids were walking home from school, so it was about 3:30PM. It was a very windy day. Seeing the fire was way beyond CF, I returned home.

Now in the early evening, the fire here is pushing toward the coast. Note the timeframe. At this point I was alarmed the wind would shift and MBFD wasn't staging at the city line which is right across the street from here. These shots are from my lady's camera, off of my porch.

Looking at the timeframe once again, this view is from Kings Highway, Rte 17 NMB, across from Barefoot Resort as 75 homes burned, and this is where the controversy begins. The investigation into why NMB wasn't better prepared for the fire that they knew was coming for hours, the actions of the PSO and his whereabouts, the pre-planning for a major incident in a luxury resort or lack thereof, the pre-placement of apparatus, strike forces in the Barefoot Resort, these types of issues were the center of the discussion of why a fire that indeed was headstrong, eventually jumped the intra-costal and a six lane highway was not met with a better response by City of NMB Fire Department.

There is a Horry County Brother that checks in here occassionally. He can add from his better perspective as I'm sure he fought this fire. I can only say Horry County Fire Rescue is undermanned, underpaid, and needs more help.

You know I bit the other night when somebody said something about "my perfect world" or words to that effect, and that blossomed into something uglier. Just because I got a lot of rep points here; some people build you up so they can tear you down; I understand that,(Edit: some people just can't stand you anyway) but I wish people wouldn't make derogatory comments about me personally. I paid my dues, and more so. I only post here to try and help. But I bit, and it made me unload nasty ugly. I'm sure that guy is laughing, he knows I took the bait. Ha ha, jokes on me. No worries. Ironically it wasn't a cop.

I do appreciate the calm responses and moderation, and will try harder in the future to watch my mouth and not reactively offend when offended, or be the first offender.

Edited July 30, 2010 by efdcapt115

[efdcapt115 1,511]

A recording of a Nov. 12 meeting shows Thomas forced Fisher to resign after accusing him of giving confidential information about the wildfire to Barefoot Resort resident Mike Ragusa. Thomas did not say what information was considered confidential.

Ragusa obtained all of his information through a series of Freedom of Information Act requests to the city, and all of those documents are considered public information under state law.

Ragusa said the documents he received show Bailey and other city officials took the fire threat too lightly and then tried to cover up mistakes they made. The April 23 wildfire destroyed 76 homes and damaged 100 others, most of them in the Barefoot Resort community.

City officials have said the fire moved too quickly and erratically for Bailey and others to do anything but order a hectic, last-minute evacuation that had many Barefoot Resort residents fleeing their burning homes in the early-morning hours.

Read more: http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/01/10/1253174/recordings-reveal-dubious-decisions.html#ixzz0vBbfKUkT

Now, I've shown you timestamped photos of the fire progression. Read all you'd like about the craziness of NMB emergency Services it's all in there. But you look at our photos, and tell me "the fire moved too quickly and erratically (sic)to do anything but order a hectic, last minute evacuation...in the EARLY morning hours."

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I was saying earlier I had driven over to Carolina Forest. I took this video hours before the photos posted above. It's daytime. The fire I'd guess was 10 miles from NMB at this point, up near Conway. I had no official connection with any agency, I'm just a civilian here.

[INIT915 1,119]

Read more: http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/01/10/1253174/recordings-reveal-dubious-decisions.html#ixzz0vBbfKUkT

Now, I've shown you timestamped photos of the fire progression. Read all you'd like about the craziness of NMB emergency Services it's all in there. But you look at our photos, and tell me "the fire moved too quickly and erratically (sic)to do anything but order a hectic, last minute evacuation...in the EARLY morning hours."

Thanks for providing more details on the incident. To a certain extent, I don't really see the connection to our original debate over combined PD/FD agencies. Most, if not all of the "drama" outlined in the article isn't unique to that agency. Allegations of corruption, mismanagement. I can guarantee that I can find a dozen analogous cases in the matter of a few minutes.

I mean, if we consider all the wildfires that get "out of control", especially in areas with progressive or respected FD's, I just fail to see the connection. Using this logic, what does it say about major "single-function" FD's such as those in LA or other metropolitan areas that encounter major wildfires with frequency.

A quick check of Wikipedia reveals quite a few "public safety" style systems. Checking out some of their pages shows some communities seem happy with their set-up, which I believe supports my original (and rather simplistic) point that such a system "could" work.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Thanks for providing more details on the incident. To a certain extent, I don't really see the connection to our original debate over combined PD/FD agencies. Most, if not all of the "drama" outlined in the article isn't unique to that agency. Allegations of corruption, mismanagement. I can guarantee that I can find a dozen analogous cases in the matter of a few minutes.

I mean, if we consider all the wildfires that get "out of control", especially in areas with progressive or respected FD's, I just fail to see the connection. Using this logic, what does it say about major "single-function" FD's such as those in LA or other metropolitan areas that encounter major wildfires with frequency.

A quick check of Wikipedia reveals quite a few "public safety" style systems. Checking out some of their pages shows some communities seem happy with their set-up, which I believe supports my original (and rather simplistic) point that such a system "could" work.

Thank you. The NMB info you asked for is just a far larger example of a failed PSO System, that's about the only connection. Another issue I think we witnessed here, and in some cases took part in, was a good example of the power of combined media, opinion and emotion. I have been re-reading your posts, and you have stayed on point. It is a simplistic "concept".

So what caused the reactions?

Exhibit 1: The first video and the following enthusiasms from younger members and the bah-humbugs like me, for exploring a system that not many of us were even thinking about until we viewed this video. Most thoughts were elsewhere initially. Then, bang right? This controversial video. A couple of guys saying, why not, and a couple of guys saying, are you kidding?

But I think the best answer I could give to your question would be to defer to this post. The concept is simple, the application might not be. Expanding into areas like western wildfire fighting is beyond my scope of knowledge.

I'm sorry but I just can't see how a LE/Fire model can work and save money? Both jobs present incidents that require resources be dedicated to the incident, so if there are not enough resources to do both, one or the other (maybe whichever incident is second) will be neglected. If you have the resources to do both, why not "specialize" and just do one or the other and be damn good at one, not half-arsed at both? I'd like to see a system that works and works well that also saves money. I'll bet those that think it works well and many of us wouldn't agree. How about ongoing training? LE officers only learn to shoot once? Firefighters only need to pass FF1&2 then they're ready for the rest of their careers? Not hardly.

It's not that I don't believe LE officers are capable as of course they surely are. It's a priorities issue and LE has some significant mandates on them to follow very specific courses of action. If the Fire Service was more like LE in this regard we couldn't complain about how there are two standards for the FS, volunteer and career.

[firemoose827 324]

I didnt read everyones post (Got tired of the needless age old arguments and pointless bashes) but did anyone notice the first firefighter to relieve the cop on the line?? His helmet was on BACKWARDS Than shortly after you see him turning it around...Hes either a construction worker FT or he just got confused as to which uniform he was putting on!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Time to take a closer look at Public Safety Systems that use cross trained FF/LEO's.

The number one reason stated for them is cost savings (also we can't afford a career FD).

"You get what you pay for". How many small FD's or PD's run ambulances with personnel that the take from one assignment (patrol or suppression) because they do not have enough personnel? So when there is an EMS call, do not expect a timely response for a burglar alarm or a pot on the stove.

How many FF's are needed? How many LEO's? Most of the public safety cross trained are getting away with fewer of both. If you need 20 FF's and 25 cops on duty per shift they tend to have 30 combined, which saves in the budget and is fine if you do not have calls that require both activities at the same time.

Now does it really save money for the property owners? Well the budget is less. But does that mean other things like code enforcement are not being done or is the building dept bigger to perform that function or does an outside company charge buisnesses to perform this and report it to the city? What about parking and other enforcment s which often pays for itself?

Whats the ISO rating? If you are not on the fire apparatus ISO wants 36 responders and an IC? In the station its 12 and an IC. So for a dual role system to have the same rating with say 2 engines, 1 ladder & 1 rescue they need 36 LEO's & FF's that can be released to fire duty. if they were seperate with the same rating you would need 13 in the FD leaving 23 LEO's. So we are short changing the FD since we all know thats the side thats not getting the manning.

What does this cost? In NR we determined that if we drop the onduty force from 29 down to 25 the property insurance premiums would go up $8 - $12 million per year. So saving $1m in taxes costs $8-$12m.

If its still coming out of your pocket is this a good deal?

The number one question is what level of service does this provide.

Can responders handle the training requirements and maintain effectiveness (generally thru actual working incidents and drills)to more than one discipline? Yes. what about more than two, three or four?

Can a good LEO also be a good FF? Yes

But what other roles are required of these members?

Do they provide EMS? ALS or BLS?

Hazmat? Ops or Tech Level?

Basic Rescue?

Technical Rescue?

Who does fire prevention training?

Who provides for prevention inspections/code enforcement?

What about speed enforcement (radar)?

Tactical or SWAT?

Other law enforcment specialties?

We have found that with 40 hours per week and you take out time for minimum training requirements, maintenance/cleaning of equipment/station, fire inspections and incident responses there are not enough hours left in the week to do all the specialties. Therefor we have each station specialize (hazmat, tech rescue, etc.)so not everyone has to maintain all the training. If you add patrol to the responsabilities something has to give.

Can you maintain certification in all areas and be good at all of them or are you trully a jack of all trades, master of none?

The final issue brought out in this thread is the actual response by the dept. in this thread. Any dept. (career, combo, vol or public safety) can have the same issues as brought out here; training, PPE, policies, command etc. I do not think that because this involved a Public Safty Dept. it means that all Public Safety Depts. are the same. But I do think that maintianing the training levels and more importantly the drilling and experience levels in this type of dept are very difficult.

[JJB531 652]

BNechis brings up a lot of good points, and is along the lines of my personal feelings about a PSO/dual-role agency. I think that you can take a police officer and make them a decent firefighter, just as well you can take a firefighter and make them a decent police officer. But if my house is burning down, I don't want a decent firefighter showing up to save my personal belongings or myself for that matter if I'm trapped inside! I want a d**m good firefighter showing up! And vice versa for the firefighter trained as a police officer.

I think that these systems can work operationally, but now you have to find individuals who can wear both hats, be proficient and meet the standards set forth by the respective field, and personally I don't think that's an easy task. I know with my career as a police officer, there's certain aspects of the field that I am good at, and other parts where I might step back and let someone else handle. As an example, I know some police officers who can stop a car and find a bundle of heroin or a kilo of cocaine with little effort, while others couldn't find drugs if someone handed it to them. But that same police officer who might not be in tune with narcotics enforcement, might be extremely proficient in tactics, firearm control, and apprehension, and would probably be the one you want going through the door to apprehend a perp. With so many specialties in each field, it's difficult to not only master what is expected of you as a police officer or firefighter, but to master another field that has very little in common with the other.