Briarcliff's General Alarm 7-24-10 (Discussion Thread)

[x635 4,066]

I haven't listened to 60 Control in a LONG TIME, but now I am listening via internet feed.

I AM ONLY MAKING OBSERVATIONS AND POSING QUESTIONS TO PONDER BASED ON WHAT I HAVE HEARD ON THE RADIO.(I LISTENED FROM THE TIME OF DISPATCH UNTIL THE FIRE WAS PLACED UNDER CONTROL. Also, I am curious about the logistics in Westchester, which don't seem to have changed much.

I think I am listening to a fire in Briarcliff, and although the dispatcher is doing a excellent job in keeping up with this despite all the demands placed on him. And, it sounds like a mess on the operations end of the radio. Some units were on 46.26, some on Fire 12, etc. It doesn't seem like much has progressed since I moved as far as radio etiquete, incident command, and SOP's go.

Here's a satellie view of the building involved in the incident. Looks like a a 4 unit attached woodframe townhome built in 1984:

OVERHEAD VIEW OF STRUCTURE

Shouldn't there be, AUTOMATICALLY, a a first alarm confirmed structure fire, one and one started, a FAST team added, Safety Battalion, Con Ed notification, an ALS ambulance and an EMS supervisor. AND in heat like you guys are having, a rehab unit, additional ambulance(s), and additional manpower due to longer and more rehab cycles? Also, the County's Fieldcom so the IC's aren't out the in the heat and have a controlled and well equipped enviroment to make decisions?. All responing units with the proper amount of expected manpower to accomplish their task with an identified staging area? I wonder, if there were more resources available/dispatched immediately, would this incident have spread further causing further manpower and other needs like it did? Sounds like it was fully involved when the call was placed though.

These, some very basic resources, were all requested at different times on an as needed basis, piecemealed, starting at least 10 minutes to WELL over an hour after the first IC arrived on scene. Shouldn't some of these obstacles have been foreseen? Some had to be toned out multiple times for manpower before giving up the call and going to the next agency. Shouldn't they be started immediately in the first place? And the departments who had to give up the call noted and investigated why. Does this strip down a large portion of the county if another fire or major EMS incident were to occur?

Also, some of the neighboring companies couldn't respond or were out of service. Are a lot of the main guys who cover calls in Baltimore or on vacation?

Now, as I'm listening now, well over an hour into the incident, Battalion 12 is requesting a FAS team from Yorktown so Croton can go to work when they get there. Shouldn't the original FAST stay as the FAST? Millwood is requesting additional manpower respond in their utility. And Ossining Rescue 14 is responding for "traffic control". A Rescue unit, one of the most specialized units/members in a department, are going to do traffic? As EMS 11 is getting hospital bed counts- Phelps 6 and WMC 6. And EMS is really busy throughout the county.

Absolutely unbelievable.

I'm sure everybody worked hard and did a great job, especially under the sun on a hot day. It just sounds messy, antiquated, and unorganized on the radio.

[SteveOFD 176]

Seth, I was not at this scene but here is my insight on a couple of your comments. Yes, it did sound like some units were on Fire 12 and some on 46.26Mhz. Battalion 12 requested all units operate on 46.26Mhz because "Fire 12 is not working" in the area.

Rescue 14 responded for "traffic control" because this rig is operated by Ossining Fire Police and Emergency Squad company. Their members are specifically trained, in addition to other FD training, in fire police, extrication and traffic control situations. From what I heard there was a 5" supply line across Route 9 near Scarborough Road, necessitating the closure of Route 9 at Rockledge Avenue (Arcadian Shopping Center).

I will not comment on any of your other concerns, or any of the FD's involved in this incident, but from my personal experience as a FF and Officer the saying "...Two Hundred Years of Tradition unimpeded by Progress" still applies to some Westchester FD's.

[yanks4ever1320 6]

i can confirm that there was a 5" supply line going across route 9, and the traffic situation down that way was a mess. thats all i can comment on because i was only driving by when i got detoured because of the fire.

[wrx9514 2]

As someone that was riding the second Engine on scene, I can say that your aerial map isn't correct, the house was at the corner of Scarborough Station Road and Beachwood Way. The call originally came out as a Vehicle Fire and was then changed to a Structure Fire when the fire spread and eventually involved the entire 3 car garage, both the first and second floors, and the roof. The heat played a large factor in the amount of manpower needed as it was very hot today and extremely humid. On scene there was already one Rescue from Briarcliff and 2 Rescue/Engines also from Briarcliff. This did not "strip down a large portion of the county if another fire or major EMS incident were to occur" as all the companies that responded, besides all of the BMFD apparatus, whose Ladder is currently OOS requiring the use of Ossining's Ladder 42, were only a small fraction of their overall companies and coverage areas. Westchester is a large county and would have been fine had another fire or major EMS incidednt occured. Overall, it was a good burn. Everyone worked well, it was well organized and everyone did their jobs. The biggest problem of the incident was the heat and humidity, which put many on scene on the sidelines for longer than normal, but everyone was able to work through it with very few people needing medical attention to deal with dehydration, overexertion, etc.

Here's a picture I snapped after the majority of the fire was under control/knocked down. The garage to the right was where the fire originally began, spread to the middle garage and eventually blew out reaching 4 cars, 3 parked to the right and 1 to the left of where the picture was taken, which are some 35 feet away from the structure. A few more spots popped up and the whole frame of what was the garage was knocked completely down, can't speak on the condition of the interior not scene here as I did the majority of my work during the initial attack before aiding with exterior and clean up operations.

[x635 4,066]

SteveOFD, thanks from the insight.

wrx9514, thanks for posting from your perspective and giving us the insight as well.Sounds like it was a tough job. With all that was going on, it's hard hear all the radio traffic. But listening to the incident from dispstch until under control, it wasn't so smooth logistically. But that's just my opinion. Some of the resources requested should have been foreseen and dispatched immediately. Also, great photo.

Also, is there a cascade unit that was on scene? I forget if Briarcliff's rescue has one.

Thanks again guys for keeping this positive and constructive.

[helicopper 1,050]

Yes, there was definitely a supply line running across Route 9.

This is what it looked like from our perspective. The smoke was visible from the County Airport too. Air traffic control noted the smoke from the tower.

Sorry we didn't get there sooner to catch the real action.

[jack10562 414]

Google maps gave a similar location as Bing, so I was mistaken it was one of the 4-unit attached town home cluster's that was involved, or in even a worse case, the mansion itself!

Tough conditions out there, (yesterday) with the heat!

Glad everyone is safe.

[Remember585 815]

Also, is there a cascade unit that was on scene? I forget if Briarcliff's rescue has one.

Seth,

R37 does have a cascade system, and was used at this job.

I won't comment on any of your other questions or points except one. The calling in of another FAST to relieve the original one. This practice occurs often, not only in Westchester, but in other areas. Friday's fire in Pelham had Eastchester TL17 as a FAST, which was put to work on the roof and relieved by E151 from Greenville. I can't find it now, but one of the recent IA's from the FDNY (I forget which one) you can see in ryang's excellent post that the IC requested a relief FAST.

Some experts say that relieving a FAST or rotating them is a good practice at prolonged incidents, in order to keep the eyes and ears "fresh." With today being so brutal out, we rotated our guys in and out of their gear to try and beat the heat as best as we could. A couple of times we found ourselves helping guys coming out who were exhausted. It was as crappy a day as you can get to play fireman.

[Remember585 815]

Some additional unit information (feel free to add to the IA)

15:51 - Initial dispatch for Briarcliff (Full assignment).

15:56 - Request for Ossining 1 & 1 to the scene (2332, 2334, E97, L41).

16:10 - Request for Croton FAST to the scene (2081, 2082, E119).

16:14 - Reequest for Pleasantville VAC Rehab to the scene (7606, 76B2, 76B3).

16:31 - Request for Ossining ALS to scene. (36M1 on call in Croton, 74A1 covered initially).

16:53 - Request for Sleepy Hollow EMS (73B1) to the scene. Request for Millwood Engine (2252, 2253, E247) to Briarcliff HQ for coverage.

17:01 - Request for Millwood Engine (2252, 2253, E247, U44) and Sleepy Hollow Engine (2311, 2313, E86) to the scene for relief.

17:01 - Request for Pleasantville Engine (2371, E91) to relocate to Briarcliff FD HQ for coverage.

17:11 - Request for Yorktown FAST (2533, E270, U36) to the scene.

Briarcliff FD: 2051, E92, E93, E94, R37, U62, 53B1, 53B2 (TL40 OOS)

Ossining FD: 2332, 2334, E97, L41, R14 (in Ossining redirecting traffic)

Croton FD: 2081, 2082, E119

Sleepy Hollow FD: 2311, 2313, E86

Millwood FD: 2252, E247, U44

Yorktown FD: 2533, E270, U36

Ossining EMS: 36M1, 74A1, 74B1

Pleasantville EMS: 7606, 76B2, 76B3

Sleepy Hollow EMS: 73B1

Grasslands EMS: 87A1

WCDES Units: Battalion 12, EMS 11

Relocated to Briarcliff FD: Pleasantville 2371, E91

[mymack1 38]

FIRE-12 not working in the area of the is another major concern that should be addressed by DES. An additional transmit site should be put up in Rockland County to cover the community's along the Hudson River.

[Bnechis 3,961]

besides all of the BMFD apparatus, whose Ladder is currently OOS requiring the use of Ossining's Ladder 42,

Then L-42 should be on automatic response and not wait till we see if we need it. Once the engines arrive it is often too late to get a truck in.

Overall, it was a good burn.

Lets try to remember that sometimes friends or family read what is posted here. I do not think they would like to hear it was a "good" burn....maybe a good stop would be better.

Everyone worked well, it was well organized and everyone did their jobs.

Seth didnt say those onscene didnt work well, he pointed out that there needs to be better preplanning as can be seen by having to ask for L-42 and the timeline below.

15:51 - Initial dispatch for Briarcliff (Full assignment).

15:56 - Request for Ossining 1 & 1 to the scene (2332, 2334, E97, L41).

16:10 - Request for Croton FAST to the scene (2081, 2082, E119).

16:14 - Reequest for Pleasantville VAC Rehab to the scene (7606, 76B2, 76B3).

16:31 - Request for Ossining ALS to scene. (36M1 on call in Croton, 74A1 covered initially).

16:53 - Request for Millwood Engine (2252, 2253, E247) to Briarcliff HQ for coverage.

I'm going to assume that when Ossining was called (15:56) that it was for a working fire. If thats the case "FAST" should be automatic, not wait another 14 minutes to dispatch. Also why wait 35 minutes to call for ALS to the scene, if a FF goes down, you want it there as soon as its a working fire and again that should be automatic with FAST.

Finally, 57 minutes to move up units to cover, again it should be automatic for a working fire, particularly in the heat.

[Cav97 0]

Then L-42 should be on automatic response and not wait till we see if we need it. Once the engines arrive it is often too late to get a truck in.

Lets try to remember that sometimes friends or family read what is posted here. I do not think they would like to hear it was a "good" burn....maybe a good stop would be better.

Seth didnt say those onscene didnt work well, he pointed out that there needs to be better preplanning as can be seen by having to ask for L-42 and the timeline below.

I'm going to assume that when Ossining was called (15:56) that it was for a working fire. If thats the case "FAST" should be automatic, not wait another 14 minutes to dispatch. Also why wait 35 minutes to call for ALS to the scene, if a FF goes down, you want it there as soon as its a working fire and again that should be automatic with FAST.

Finally, 57 minutes to move up units to cover, again it should be automatic for a working fire, particularly in the heat.

just for the record, it was L41

[chiefofd41 25]

It was Ladder 41 that responded to the scene and the engines left room for the ladder. Water just started flowing upon the arrival of Ladder 41. It's easy to second guess whats going on by listening to the radio, but communication on the fire ground went well. Fireground 3 was utilized and all teams were able to communicate with IC or the operations Chief. Heat was a factor and we made sure we rotated crews every 15 -20 minutes. The building was concrete including the floors and roof. extension was limited to a few kitchen cabinets on the second floor of one unit. Utilizing the initial F.A.S. Team is not a bad thing, as long as their replacement is on scene and ready to take over FAST. Briarcliff FD did a great job as well as their Chief.

2332

[Remember585 815]

Also why wait 35 minutes to call for ALS to the scene, if a FF goes down, you want it there as soon as its a working fire and again that should be automatic with FAST.

The time I posted for is when it was requested to 60 Control. I'm not sure if it was on scene sooner, thru the usual dispatch policy of BMPD calling OPD for 36M1. I do know that 36M1 responded to a call in Croton, and he stated that he would go to the fire scene when clear of that job.

[Remember585 815]

I'd also like to give a shout out to The Journal News / Lohud.com for it's top-notch non-existent coverage of this fire.

[CFD320 35]

I was at work so didn't respond to this job but since the door has been opened I'll step through. Some bullet point comments on Seth's post.

First and foremost, everyone went home some minor injuries, smoke inhalation aside. The two brothers in Bridgeport were not so lucky yesterday.

Above, pre-plans and response policies were questioned and referred to as "antiquated" in Westchester. I do not know how Briarcliff operates, but I can tell you that many volunteer and career departments alike in Westchester have detailed greater alarm response policies in the CAD at 60 control and are often executed automatically without any radio transmissions necessary. In addition to that, the county "battalion cars" act as the resource officer at jobs, taking pressure off of the IC. I do not know all of the battalions personally but I will tell you two I do know bring to the table plenty of experience to know when to "suggest" to IC's when to request additional resources.

I am quite sure this fire could have been run differently, as every single fire is different and different IC's will not run the same

fire the same way. It is quite possible that had this job had occurred in another district it would have sounded more "professional" on the air. Maybe some unknown department that sounds great on the air loses the entire structure, maybe not? How u sound on the air means dick when u have someone trapped above the fire and everyone is looking at you to make a decision.

Most volunteer rescue companies in Westchester were born from fire police. Just because a particular company carries certain tools does

not mean that their membership is as specialized as their toolbox.

FAST in the weather conditions yesterday needed to be properly relieved. A good proactive FAST is doing more than anyone realizes, just being bunkered up and ready to roll on a day like yesterday is taxing on the body. If after rehab the IC chooses to use the relieved FAST for overhaul or salvage rather than request additional resources, I don't see an issue. I see it done often.

Radio discipline is a issue everywhere. And I do mean everywhere, ever hear tapes of ground ops channels from highly regarded paid

departments where maydays are stepped all over due to poor radio discipline?

The fire service is reactive by nature, if if Black Friday had never occurred PSS systems would not be an NFPA standard today. Each member from the to the IC down to the probie has to take a personal inventory after each job and ask him/herself how they can be better and safer next time.

I think in a forum such as this positivity is key. Every member can learn something from every run...

Stay Safe and Hydrate...

[abaduck 123]

<snip>

Now, as I'm listening now, well over an hour into the incident, Battalion 12 is requesting a FAS team from Yorktown so Croton can go to work when they get there. Shouldn't the original FAST stay as the FAST?

I wasn't there, it wasn't my job. But I will comment on the above.

General Foch used to write, at the top of his battle plans, "Objective: Beat the Germans". This was to remind him not to lose sight of the point of the entire exercise in all the ensuing complexity.

In the fire service, we say 'put the fire out and 90% of your problems go away'.

If I recall my training correctly, putting the initial FAST to work is a legitimate tactic the IC MAY chose to employ. If manpower is critical, it may make the difference between getting a good knock on the fire, and being forced onto the back foot and getting significant extension. Which course poses the overall least risk to the members is a judgment for the IC. Or so I recall being taught.

Edited July 25, 2010 by abaduck

[chris 18]

Pleasantville vac rehab unit deserves alot of credit they did a great job. Thanks ..

[MJP399 4]

Pleasantville vac rehab unit deserves alot of credit they did a great job. Thanks ..

I will have to agree with Chris, the Pleasantville Vac rehab was excellent, an amazing resource for a day like yesterday. Thank you for being there and very professional and proactive!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Pleasantville vac rehab unit deserves alot of credit they did a great job. Thanks ..

I will have to agree with Chris, the Pleasantville Vac rehab was excellent, an amazing resource for a day like yesterday. Thank you for being there and very professional and proactive!

Thank you to both of you. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. We expect to be very busy with the Rehab Unit and look forward to helping out.

[GAW6 66]

As the Captain of PVAC, I would like to thank those of you for your kind words. I am extremely proud of our Rehab Crew that day. Hopefully, the word will get out there around the County about our personnel and equipment. Glad we were able to make a difference in those extreme conditions, and that no one was seriously injured.

I was also told by my members about the excellent job that BMFD did!

[ex-commish 490]

I believe PVAC should be commended for taking a pro-active stance on firefighter rehab. They have proven to be a valuable resource and I am glad they are available when needed.

[KelliPVAC 32]

Thank you for comments on the PVAC Rehab Unit. We were happy to be there helping! Thank you to BFD ambulance crew for your assistance with helping us rehab! Stay Safe everyone. Enjoy the rest of the summer

[16fire5 693]

<snip>

If I recall my training correctly, putting the initial FAST to work is a legitimate tactic the IC MAY chose to employ. If manpower is critical, it may make the difference between getting a good knock on the fire, and being forced onto the back foot and getting significant extension. Which course poses the overall least risk to the members is a judgment for the IC. Or so I recall being taught.

I would disagree since the OSHA respiratory standard requires 2 out while operations are underway in the IDLH. The FAST is being used to comply with the law and most important be ready to render aid to anyone in distress.

If the FAST needed relief then how can they be ready to go to work?

Oh and yeah I forgot everybody who wasn't there can stop being the Monday quarterback OK. Every firefighter there busted their tails to do the best job we could to help BMFD and the family who owned the house.

Relax brother reread the posts no one questioned your skills dedication or the job you and the other responders performed. But we think a FAST team and additional resources need to be on the road right off the bat to back up and protect first due.

And Barry hits the nail on the head if the truck is not on the initial assignment there is a real good possibly of them being blocked out. Plus the occupants in the window won't have time to wait for the chief to get there and see them in the window. Good job by the Engine Chauffeurs leaving room for the truck its great when they keep the truck in mind.

[Oswegowind 17]

Seth, I understand your issue with the logistics and timely requests for important on scene necessities. As most know, I work as a dispatcher in Yonkers. Beyond the standing orders that we have assigned for individual codes such as a confirmed structure fire (signal 10-30) and the upgrade of alarms, a good dispatcher is one who can interact with the incident commander well and short of do his job, assist as best as possible because they are not caught up in the moment at the scene. I have never worked at 60 control, and do not know the immediate concerns or "job" as it may be. However, there have been numerous times in my career that I have "poked" the IC while responding or at scene in order to get an additional engine for FAST or supply or to upgrade the original call coding due to "what we hear" on the fireground. Not for nothing, an IC may pull up to a pile of poop and have to act quickly, and may become overwhelmed. Sometimes, a little help is needed. Anytime I am working and hear what sounds to be a legit job, I start out EMS immediately. Why wait, the first co. could get there and pull out a surviving burn victim or recently downed unconscious party. Should they have to wait another 8-25 minutes for the ambulance to get there? Or, the first co. could get there and someone get injured immediately due to the nature of the condition. Remember, we are all on the same team, everyone has a job to do and everyone should try to excel at doing theirs!

[GAW6 66]

Sometimes, a little help is needed. Anytime I am working and hear what sounds to be a legit job, I start out EMS immediately. Why wait, the first co. could get there and pull out a surviving burn victim or recently downed unconscious party. Should they have to wait another 8-25 minutes for the ambulance to get there? Or, the first co. could get there and someone get injured immediately due to the nature of the condition. Remember, we are all on the same team, everyone has a job to do and everyone should try to excel at doing theirs!

EXCELLENT!!! Couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately, some FDs are still anti-EMS and cannot understand the need for EMS at a fire scene.

[MoFire390 118]

Quick question....why wait 15 min for a rehab unit when there is one 2 towns over? Has all the chairs tents water and other resources u need?

[ny10570 745]

Quick question....why wait 15 min for a rehab unit when there is one 2 towns over? Has all the chairs tents water and other resources u need?

I'm confused, PVAC is only 1 town away and apparently sufficiently equipped for the job. Where does it say it took them 15 minutes to respond?

[MJP399 4]

Call was south of the Arcadian Shopping Center, and South of Sparta Cemetery

[Remember585 815]

Quick question....why wait 15 min for a rehab unit when there is one 2 towns over? Has all the chairs tents water and other resources u need?

Who would that be? If you mean Cortlandt VAC, they are nearly 4 miles further than PVAC.

And, not trying to be mean or to knock CCVAC, but on July 7th, the CCVAC rehab unit was called to two different incidents in neighboring areas (Croton & Mohegan) and never got out. To my knowledge, PVAC's rehab unit has answered every request made for them.

Any EMS, or fire agency for that matter, willing to provide rehab services and to actually do it well deserves a big thank you from all of us!

There's no need for a pissing match.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Remember585