Garage Fire

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

Early this morning the tones sounded for a department in my County (Department A) to respond to the scen of a Garage Fire with gas and propane cylinders around the garage. After the address a member of Department A notified dispatch that the garage belonged to him and he wasnt home but en route to the Garage, he also wanted to have another FD (Department put on stand by. As a few minutes went by and the first Engine and Tanker from Department A went rolling out the Member who owned the Garage arrived on scene and notified it was fully involved and to start Department B with a Tanker. Then after another minute or so the same member came back on the radio stating dispatch to start another FD (Department C) also to this location, which was later canceled by a responding member of Department A stating they should wait until they are on scene to size up the problem. From what came cross my scanner the Garage was a Long 2 car garage with one bay door and enough room to park 2 cars front to back. Upon arrival of the first Engine from Department A all M/A cancelled and the fire was contained. Do you think the Vlunteer who owned the garage over reacted? Or was he simply calling for what he thought was needed.

[newsbuff 286]

I think he should keep his words off the air unless he is an officer. He is in no position to be making decisions.

Could you imagine the CF that would happen if every volunteer were able to pull up to the scene and just start calling for other resources?

Disclaimer: I say "volunteer" in the second sentence because in 99.9% of career dept's, an officer is sitting up front in the rig.

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

I was thinking the same thing, plus I was thinking maybe he was getting to out of hand since it was his garage, calling for 3 Departments before an officer arrived on scene to size up the situation.

[Remember585 815]

I was thinking the same thing, plus I was thinking maybe he was getting to out of hand since it was his garage, calling for 3 Departments before an officer arrived on scene to size up the situation.

A. I believe there is nothing wrong with sending resources early. It's just as easy to cancel them.

B. I don't agree that "any member" shouldn't be requesting resources. A firefighter is a firefighter, right? They should have the basic knowledge to know what they got, where it's going and what resources they need.

C. If it was your garage, your house, whatever - wouldn't you have a little bit of a "pucker-factor" going? It's your stuff!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

According to CT law, the "Fire Chief or Senior Fire Officer" is the person in charge on scene. If you're the only one, guess what, you're the senior fire officer. I think its a good call.

[JetPhoto 626]

I agree with most of your points however I don't see any problem with putting a department on stand by especially if it's volunteer.

[irishfire2491 24]

I Do Agree with Munson, This story outline doesnt give enought info to make a clear decison. #1 what is the call response for this department so called A, do they always get out on every job, how many trucks/members. #2 What type of Water source Hense the Tanker. #3 How far away is the fire to the Dept A response and How long would it take for Dept C to even get there 3-30 mins. You can always Cancel someone then be sitting on scene mother Fing where is my M/A DEPT. Maybe A PREPLAN Should be in EFFECT, We have it in Westchester TRI-Village Response where any type of Fire in a Structure First Dept Responds and the Other 2 standby in HQ. It the Same way in Putnam County with a Three dept response.

[wraftery 1,275]

Your garage or not, the response and sop's should remain the same. Changing the established plan only mucks things up.

The mamber making the changes without sufficient info simply panicked. I've had instances involving family or friends over my lifetime and found that in an emergency, my brain seemed to switch to Professional Mode. I think the guy with the garage fire wasn't able to make that switch.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I would think that dispatch would know to send the appropriate initial responses for a structure fire. It was called in as a struct fire. If this was an alarm activation and the member got on scene first and realized it was actually a structure fire, then yes, fill out the box, call for more M/A, etc.

The fact that this is a small DETACHED garage makes a big difference. If it were attached to a house, yes, send everybody.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If a fully involved attached garage fire typically would bring M/A, then a report of an attached garage fire ought to start them. Why arrive and be 5 minutes behind what is needed. Sounds like overall the admin have not planned for alarm responses properly. This member shouldn't have had to call M/A if it was a reported garage fire, it should have been dispatched initially. That aside, maybe the FD was capable of handling an attached garage fire on their own, as they ended up doing?

[psyanide 11]

One other piece of information we do not have is was the HomeownerFF in contact with anyone in his department off radio - not just a chief or officer. In my department thechiefs and officers make common use of their nextel PTT. If a fellow member contacted the homeownerFF and said something like "hey, we're not out of the bays yet", that could be one reason the homeownerFF got back on the radio and called for another M/A. Plus, like someone else pointed out... it was his house. He knows what is inside and what kind of fire load is present. I really hope homeownerFF has the knowledge to know what is needed or not. All FFs must be able to do size up, do it properly, and do it without without panicking.

If I was on the truck responding TO the call, I would want my fellow FF to give the department as much relevant info as possible - 1 or more cars inside? Have they used it as storage and have boxes piled to the ceiling? We have a few construction members in my department who use their garages for work and have large power tools stored there w/ 240v lines. I guess it boils down to details none of us (including O/P) are privy to without being there to witness it. To me it sounds like a you-had-to-be-there-to-judge type scenario.

[NHFD21255 141]

We also do not know if the member calling for mutual aid was a 6 month member of the fire service or a 20 year member. I think that makes a big difference. A 6 month member may have "gone overboard" with mutual aid where a 20 year guy I'm sure has been on enough calls where he knows what resources were needed. What is overboard anyway ? I would rather have more tankers than I need sitting there than not have enough and run out of water.

The issue I have with this call is this The member ON SCENE requested another FD (Department C) also to this location, which was later canceled by a responding member of Department A stating they should wait until they are on scene to size up the problem. Why is a member who is not on the scene canceling anybody before he even gets there ? Didnt the same sort of thing happen in Conn a few months back ?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Not for nothing, the fire went out and nobody got hurt, why are we even questioning this judgment?

[gamewell45 258]

Since I wasn't there I won't criticize one way or another; but some key words come into play here. "Propane tank" comes to mind; what was the size of the tank?. What size was the garage? how many bays? one, two, three or more? Construction type of building? Exposures? There's alot of "what if's" present. What if the guy was a member for six months? Maybe he was a 20 year member at another department or a retired career guy before he joined this department. When it comes down to it, its really tough to make any judgement either pro or con until you have more facts.

[jayhalsey 6]

Sounds like a guy that was on scene of a structure fire called for more resources. Once senior personnel arrived and assesed intervention efforts as well as personnel already at the scene, those additional resources were deemd unnecessary, and were cancelled. Seems like that is the way it is supposed to work, no?

[helicopper 1,050]

Not for nothing, the fire went out and nobody got hurt, why are we even questioning this judgment?

Because discussions like this are good for people to work through scenarios in their heads and ask, "What would I do if?" And I we only discuss calls with a negative outcome we're severely limiting our case studies. More often than not we get it right. Discussing calls like this gives department A the ability to learn or strategize from the experiences of department B.

[PEMO3 523]

I really do not feel based on the start of the scenario "Early this morning the tones sounded for a department in my County (Department A) to respond to the scene of a Garage Fire with gas and propane cylinders around the garage", that one can just jump into judgment. A lot of unanswered questions are left, how 'early in the morning' was it and considerations 'gas and propane cylinders' along with 'owned the Garage arrived on scene and notified it was fully involved' could easily be driving factors for calling in additional resources early. How close were exposures, where was the nearest water source, what was the travel/response time for Departments B & C if they were needed. All these answers could easily justify this as being more than just a knee jerk "roll me everything to save my house" response. All to often I am reading back and forth on here about not calling in the troops fast enough, not having enough manpower and or resources on the ground for a solid initial attack.