Airbag Containment Devices

[OoO 24]

What does everyone about air bag containment devices such as this one manufactured by Hurst? These products are applied over the steering wheel and allegedly protect first responders from the sudden deployment of an undeployed air bag.

After doing a little research general internet consensus seems to be that these are ineffective and not proven to work. Does anyone have any thoughts or more importantly any links to studies performed with these devices?

Edited June 27, 2010 by OoO

[TR54 239]

Just recently removed them from the apparatus for the reasons you mentioned above. More and more they are shown to be not effective. The old safety rules must apply when working around undeployed air bags. Members talked about the steering wheel failing and injuring the people in its path. Good topic.

[WAS967 97]

One the battery is disconnected, what it the likelihood of an accidental deployment?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

If these devices are proving ineffective, is it because they are not being attached properly? Are they too difficult to attach properly?

I can't imagine a company like Hurst marketing something that could potentially lead to injuries, unless they had done some serious testing to see if it actually works.

That's why I'm asking the question; defective product or improper/difficult deployment?

If the product is NG, should it be taken off the market before somebody, thinking they're safe, gets seriously injured? I can imagine an airbag blowing out into a firefighter's head who is leaning into the car over the victim, placing his head in between the patient and the airbag.......thinking he is protected by the ACD.....yikes.

[Guest Firediver]

One the battery is disconnected, what it the likelihood of an accidental deployment?

Even with the battery disconnected airbag manufacturers include a back-up battery with their systems so the airbag would deploy even if the car’s battery is damaged in a crash. The situation is more complicated with hybrid cars, that store great amounts of electricity on board. A good 10-20mins AFTER battery is disconnected should be and I repeat should be enough time for the back up battery to discharge(non hybrid).I don't see anyone standing around waiting for those 20min to go by before they lean into the vehicle BUT keep this in the back of your heads while working inside the vehicle after the patient(s) is/are out.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Firediver

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Drain times on cars vary depending on a lot of things, I think Ron Moore also talked about a situation where a cellphone plugged into a charger could backfeed its juice into the car, keeping it energized, including the airbags and whatnot.

And refering to the OP, I think most times improper placement, and for some companies, poor testing and faulty products have lead to a general consensus of not trusting these systems. Ditto'ing Captain Glover - I think that if Hurst is marketing something - then they've done the research. All the aforementioned products I think were from various non-leading rescue companies trying to get a niche in the market, nothing from Hurst, Holmatro, etc.etc.

[rutola413 5]

One member of my department owns and operates a Vehicle Repair/Body Shop. One important thing to remember, is side curtain airbags, he has also stated that there is some sort of airbag in the SEAT? Anyone heard of this. He stated that BEFORE making a relief cut to fold the roof, check under the plastic lining. If i remember correctly, YELLOW is Airbag canister, ORANGE is electric(hybrids). We managed to peel off the plastic liner to check(between A, B, and C posts). Not Sure if you would want to do this, might slice through a wire, or puncture the canister itself.

Opinions please, this is just something we tossed around at a MVA drill

[efdcapt115 1,511]

One member of my department owns and operates a Vehicle Repair/Body Shop. One important thing to remember, is side curtain airbags, he has also stated that there is some sort of airbag in the SEAT?

I drive a 2004 Chevy Tahoe LT; the side curtain air-bags are in the vertical top corner of the front seats, where the seat belts also come out. They probably used that air-bag/seat design in full size GM SUVs for a few years.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Seat mounted airbags are becoming common as well, I think Volvo and quite a few other companies use it, instead of a roof deployed side curtain airbag. As with anything else, if you are a larger person, or lean on the door, the ones that deploy from the seats can beat up your insides quite a bit, as well as bust your elbow and arm in the process.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

One member of my department owns and operates a Vehicle Repair/Body Shop. One important thing to remember, is side curtain airbags, he has also stated that there is some sort of airbag in the SEAT? Anyone heard of this. He stated that BEFORE making a relief cut to fold the roof, check under the plastic lining. If i remember correctly, YELLOW is Airbag canister, ORANGE is electric(hybrids). We managed to peel off the plastic liner to check(between A, B, and C posts). Not Sure if you would want to do this, might slice through a wire, or puncture the canister itself.

Opinions please, this is just something we tossed around at a MVA drill

Sorry for the multiple posts, but we have a tendency to look for the symbols, and when in doubt - we pull the trim and look for ourselves. Most vehicles have pretty clear identification as to the location of their airbags, but you never know.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If these devices are proving ineffective, is it because they are not being attached properly? Are they too difficult to attach properly?

Another reason that was explained to us is that the auto manufacturers are using lighter weight materials in the steering wheel so that it folds when impacted. This also works in reverse when the airbag deploys and bends the wheel outward.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I believe the reason for late deployment is a capacitor, not backup batter. Either way though, the result is the same. I have seen a youtube video of a Holmatro device failing. It wasn't because of it slipping off from an improper install... it ripped through the material.

However, I would still use the device because it's not going to make the situation WORSE. If it slows down the bag deployment or contains it completely, that's better than not having it at all. Just be sure you operate as if it weren't there and keep as much of your body out of the path of deployment as possible.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[Guest Firediver]

Yes a capacitor to be technically speaking. Although a battery and capacitor work in totally different ways they both "store electrical energy" in turn activates the airbag after main battery is disconnected. I stand corrected on my terminology.

[JetPhoto 626]

Lets not forget dual stage airbags in the front. The second charge may not go off in the collision but may deploy in the rescue.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Lets not forget dual stage airbags in the front. The second charge may not go off in the collision but may deploy in the rescue.

That is very interesting. I had not thought about that and didn't know that a dual stage airbag had different and separate charges. Would a good preventative measure then be to slice open the airbag?

[Guest Firediver]

Lets not forget dual stage airbags in the front. The second charge may not go off in the collision but may deploy in the rescue.

Unless we are talking about two different systems here, I was under the impression that a "dual" stage airbag had nothing to do with deploying 2x's. Again under the impression that the computer made calculations as to the weight of the occupant and the position of the seat in that it could deploy the airbag at full force, half force (ie little person) or not at all.Yes? No? Lets find out.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Firediver

[FiftyOnePride 100]

An AP article stated this in reference to Dual Stage Airbags...

The system measures the force of a frontal crash and decides whether to set off the air bag's full power or a second stage that's about 70 percent as strong, said GM engineer Jim Khoury. He said tests had found the less powerful stage would be adequate in nearly all crashes while reducing air bag injuries up to 20 percent.

Linky

[Guest Firediver]

Yup, so we DO NOT have to worry about an airbag/SRS deploying a second time.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Firediver

[fyrlt17 13]

Airbag manufacturers, automakers, and NHTSA state that you should not restrain or cut any airbag system. If there is an accidental deployment during a rescue and there is a failure to the device that you are using, remember that it is the device that you used against recommendations that caused the possible injuries. Also, the injury from the device may be greater than that of the airbag itself.

The following field test was performed in Phoenix Arizona on December 19th 2003. A cover was installed over an airbag following the airbag cover manufacturers recommendations. The airbag was manually deployed. The cover was blown off and the steering wheel was bent.

The cover did not contain the deployment, rather bent the steering wheel and blew into the face area of the driver.

[Guest Firediver]

The airbags are also set to deploy during a car fire so they do not explode."Auto-ignition" occurs when temps reach about 300 F.

Good Stuff!!

Edited June 28, 2010 by Firediver

[Guest Firediver]

Chief, I know it's not your test but I would like to believe that Holmatro labeled it "TOP" for a reason unless we're going with top in respect to how the steering wheel is laid out (ie if wheels were turned to the right a bit). You have a link for that test? Thanks- Hurley

Edited June 28, 2010 by Firediver

[efdcapt115 1,511]

This has suddenly become a VERY interesting topic.

[16fire5 693]

I am asking. What's the best approach?

My understanding is we should cut the battery, observe the 5-10-20 rule, think before we cut, and expose the posts on the inside be fore cutting.

[Guest Firediver]

Lt. if you can get patient contact and the seats are electric WITHOUT causing more pain to patient by all means move the seat back before cutting battery. 1. it could make less work later 2. it may help keep the patient back that much further from the airbag/SRS. Like always it's never that easy.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I am asking. What's the best approach?

My understanding is we should cut the battery, observe the 5-10-20 rule, think before we cut, and expose the posts on the inside be fore cutting.

Can you expand on your procedure? Help out those of us that need a refresher? The 5-10-20 rule? Thanks Lou.

[Guest Firediver]

CApt. The 5-10-20 rule. Stay 5" from side airbag, 10" from driver airbag and 20" from pass side airbag.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

CApt. The 5-10-20 rule. Stay 5" from side airbag, 10" from driver airbag and 20" from pass side airbag.

Thanks Mike.

[eagle5473 7]

Where to start. I am an auto appraiser for my real job, and get to see lots of bags deployed.

The cover on the wheel now is a bad idea. When it first came out you only had steering wheel bag.

With all the other bags in cars now the cover would give the rescuer a false sence of security and may lead them to over look undeployed bags in other tareas of the car.

5-10-20 is the rule to teach and pass along. The most critical skill that MUST be passed along is to EXPOSE EVERYTHING before you cut.. I witnessed an Audi that was cut by a nearby FD that they did not do this and in fact cut thru the tube that expells the propellant from a side airbag canister in a C post. They have no clue at how close they came to cutting into the caniser (1-2 inches on both sides!!!)

Air bags and their parts are everywhere

-steering wheels

- dash

-side of front and rear seats

-Head rails

-A post and in the hinge post

- Dash Knee air bags on alot of cars not just the old Kia Sportage anymore.

-There are also airbags now on the big Motorcycles too

- Ford is also toying with airbags to prevent pedestrian inj on the exterior as well.

Other things to keep in mind are pre-tensoners for the seatbelts, and auto deploying roll over protection as well on convertables. Any we have not gotten to th eHybeds or electrics yet.

Extrication has become increasingly complex and dangerous for the rescuer IF you do not keep up on new technologies you are going to get hurt. And trainning on 15 year old cars is NOT real world trainning anymore.

Contact your local car dealer to see what is new in safey

Aaron Hodge

Edited June 29, 2010 by eagle5473

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Link

I quick read on what seems to be an experienced educators opinion and summation of the whole concept, more food for thought for the topic.

I like what has been said, 5/10/20, appropriate battery isolation, being mindful of drain times. pulling trim, etc. - coupled together should make for a sound way to mitigate the dangers of airbag deployment post crash/incident situations.

Edited June 29, 2010 by FiftyOnePride

[JM15 386]

Extrication has become increasingly complex and dangerous for the rescuer IF you do not keep up on new technologies you are going to get hurt. And trainning on 15 year old cars is NOT real world trainning anymore.

Aaron Hodge

This is a great point. Most if not all of the vehicles that we do extrication training on are older vehicles. These vehicles are very different from the new ones today. They are great for teaching new people how the tool operates. I wish we could get newer model cars for training.

On a side note... Any departments use either books or computer programs that show you where to cut on specific vehicles?