A Passing Police Officer Called It In......

[x635 4,066]

More and more in the news, I'm hearing "a passing cop noticed the fire and called it in" and "alerted residents". This is a result of cops being on patrol and can be on scene within seconds. They also have a duty to act.

To faciliate interagency cooperation, I think that an interface course would work well. We could learn what the cops expect from us, and what we expect from the cops.

We could also teach the police officers some basics of what to do when the arrive at a house fire and know it will be a few minutes before the FD arrives. Also, could equipping them with a fire interuption device such as the FIT-5 Pro could be very beneficial.

Although there are many officers that have this knowledge, there are many more that do not, I believe. Is something like this taught in the police academy?

And I'm mainly talking about suburban ad rural departments, that may take a few minutes based on a variety of circumstances to arrive.

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[Alpinerunner 61]

Interesting topic. I think as much as you hear about cops being the first to report a fire, I think it has to still be less than 1% of all fires. You probably hear about it because it's a good story, and most of the regular means of discovering a fire aren't reported. The probability (number of cops vs. civilians and alarm systems) just isn't on their side.

However, I would be interested to hear what cops are taught about fires. The first thing that comes to mind that they could/should be able to do is do a 360, talk to neighbors and find out if the building is occupied. They should be able to relay to the first due engine where the fire is in the structure and if there are occupants. Beyond that, I don't know what else they could do.

That FIT-5 Pro is very cool... but at $1000, it's doubtful that it could be supplied in enough quantity to be effective (ie. be in a majority of cruisers)

[JM15 386]

This is a slippery slope. While many police officers and EMS workers have saved many lives from fires in an unnoficial capacity I don't think that legally you can make them act. If basic firefighting principles were taught in the academy and they are expected to do something then legally the employer would have to provide appropriate PPE such as turnout gear. That would cause a lot of problems with Fire departments and unions. It all comes back to the news articles that were posted here awhile ago about towns cutting municipal budgets and cross training Police to also provide Fire services and Firefighters to do DPW work. I definitely think that an awareness class about fire department operations would be a great idea to give police officers more insight and understanding on how FD's operate. This might be able to help ensure smoother operations at incidents and give officers more direction as to what they shouldn't do (park in front of the house or hydrant)and what they can do to help (control traffic, 360 walkaround, gather information).

Unfortunately the cost of the FIT-5 is cost prohibitive for many Fire Departments so I don't see many Police departments getting any.

[helicopper 1,050]

In the academy, we teach cops to park directly in front of the building and/or at the nearest hydrant (to keep the street clear) and then go for coffee 'cause it may be a while. (Before you all get started, I'm KIDDING!!!)

While we do have a duty to act, that duty is limited to our actions within our scope and training. Unless/until fire suppression is listed as a duty for police we will be acting within our duty when we bang on the door to get people out, evacuate neighboring buildings, start traffic direction/control, etc.

Those things need to get done and I personally would not advocate giving cops the Fit-5 is the answer. Suppose the cop breaks a window to insert the Fit-5 and there's a flashover or other negative "what-if"?

We can definitely benefit from working and playing well together I don't think we're at the point yet where duties can be or should be interchangeable.

[x635 4,066]

The major concern would be to evacuate any possible residents without making themseves a victim.

This isn't about cross training, this is about being to interface better with one another in order to save lives and property as soon as possible.

With devicess such as the FIT-5's, they, along with cheifs and members who arrive before the suppresion apparatus can possibly save lives and property. $1000 a device isn't bad, and I'm sure that there is a thousand ways to come up with funding and distobution.

I remember when AED's and Thermal Imaging camweras first really started coming on the market and departments said they really couldn't afford them. Now, those devices have proven invaluable to emergency services.

[Alpinerunner 61]

In terms of cops going inside a structure, I would have to say it should be left to their judgement. They make instant risk-benefit decisions all the time just like FFs. By "duty to act" I think Seth meant duty to report and stay at the scene, not go in.

Ironically, I think the fact that they DON'T have PPE would ensure that they won't get themselves in trouble because they simply won't be able to go into a part of the house that's very hot or smokey. Similar to the argument that all the technology in our new gear can allow us to go too deep and get INTO trouble.

[x129K 1,393]

Excellent post Chris!~ 100 percent agree...(especially the first couple lines..LOL)

I would MUCH rather see PO's be brought to the level of EMT or similar before they tackled fires.....

[JM15 386]

Excellent post Chris!~ 100 percent agree...(especially the first couple lines..LOL)

I would MUCH rather see PO's be brought to the level of EMT or similar before they tackled fires.....

Great Point... Is there any medical training in the academy for Police? I would like to see at minimum CFR.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Great Point... Is there any medical training in the academy for Police? I would like to see at minimum CFR.

This can't be generalized. All departments are different. For instance, I *believe* cops in Ridgefield, CT are first responders, not the FD.

[PEMO3 523]

While equipping and training police officers with a FIT5 and various other equipment would without a doubt help to save lives especially since they are out cruising the streets and neighborhoods while most residents are asleep. Unfortunately, the unions would become their members own worst enemies in the efforts to secure this training and equipment. I could hear the talks now: city manager and police chief of town X announce the plan for an initiative to train and equip every PO and cruiser in town X. The union replies that they want additional differential pay for the added duties, responsibility and risk to their members and the fact that they are being asked to work out of title. Town X announces they are scrapping the plan due to unexpected additional costs and legal roadblocks created by the union.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I know in a lot of places, the PDs are, at the bare minimum, beginning to equip most cruisers with an AED. If not even a First Responder (NYS Cert I am referring to), basic CPR and AED usage/training is invaluable. I have heard several cases firsthand, of a PO arriving on a scene, and administering shocks. Regardless of outcome, the basic premise, even for the cost of an AED, it is reusable ("cost-effective" for cash strapped departments, and, I do not know if the FIT5 is "rechargeable"/reusable), and can be invaluable to the potential outcome of a victim of cardiac arrest.

Like Seth said in the first post:

This is a result of cops being on patrol and can be on scene within seconds. They also have a duty to act.

And with cardiac arrest, don't seconds count?

To faciliate interagency cooperation, I think that an interface course would work well. We could learn what the cops expect from us, and what we expect from the cops.

We could also teach the police officers some basics of what to do when the arrive at a house fire and know it will be a few minutes before the FD arrives.

I think a course such as mentioned above would be a great idea. First things first, get everyone on the same page. I think having a PO be able to know, and give a GOOD/PROPER size up would be the best thing for a first arriving officer. All too often, I hear over the radio "I'm on scene with a fully involved house", and come the FD getting on scene, it is a room and contents, or a stove fire, or fire in an attic, etc...

I think this gives a misconception to all responding FD units, when the dispatcher comes over relating that PD is on scene with [insert description here], so one begins to mentally prepare for the aforementioned situation, only to get on scene and have something completely different. Getting everyone to know/understand the lingo, and proper terms can help scale up, or scale down a response properly, a lot sooner.

I only speak from a FD perspective, because that is what I come from, and hope to hear, and learn some things that a LEO would like to know/see/hear from the FD.

In the academy, we teach cops to park directly in front of the building and/or at the nearest hydrant (to keep the street clear)

Funny Chris, in fire training, that's how they taught us to find the closest hydrant (look for the PD cruiser)!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Great Point... Is there any medical training in the academy for Police? I would like to see at minimum CFR.

In Connecticut, all Police Officers and Troopers are trained to the MRT (or EMR now I guess) level IN THE ACADEMY. They don't necessarily have to recert, but many departments give bonuses to those that do. And a few towns, Orange included, require all Officers to be at least EMT. Danbury we have a few EMTs and even one Paramedic.

[jayhalsey 6]

In terms of cops going inside a structure, I would have to say it should be left to their judgement.

But what sort of judegement would they have with no fire training? Would they know to look for warnign signs of a backdraft, or signs of potential collapse, etc? If you start training police in firefighting, where do you stop? Do you issue them bunker gear? Do you start putting pumps on cruisers? There are problems with this, many of which have been mentioned.

Police pull up on a fire. Pound on the door, and alert any occupants. Clear the area of traffic. Keep any occupants that came out in a safe area, protected from the elements, etc. Gather information for the firefighters, as to number of occupants thatmay still be inside, any special hazards, etc.

[x635 4,066]

Police pull up on a fire. Pound on the door, and alert any occupants. Clear the area of traffic. Keep any occupants that came out in a safe area, protected from the elements, etc. Gather information for the firefighters, as to number of occupants thatmay still be inside, any special hazards, etc.

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. This is all the training should cover

But, what about fire extinguisher usage. We train and promote to the public in fire extinguisher usage, so why not LEO's? It's a basic tool. And how is the FIT-5 different then a fire extinguisher, really? I think one day in some structures the FIT-5 and competing devices will become as standard as fire extinguishers. In fact, in some industrial and other enviroments, they have. It is the firefighters job to put out the fire, but it is all of our jobs to save lives and property. And all this really does is buy the fire department some time.

http://www.arasafety.com/applications/first-response.htm

Most law enforcement officers are smart enough to take the above actions without training, I just think an interface class would be good. Vice versa, PD should give a Police interface class in the Fire Academy, so that firefighter can help cops out.

[Alpinerunner 61]

There is a good bit of coverage in Fire I and II about treating a fire as a crime scene, and identifying possible evidence, protecting the evidence and the scene... about how the FD controls the scene until the last member leaves and that something must be done with the evidence before that release happens.

What else did you have in mind that FFs should know about PD work?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The problem is that each FD and PD operate differently, so I don't believe that any umbrella class could really cover what needs to be covered. I think pawning it off on rookie schools is a cop out. Its up to YOU and YOUR AGENCY to interface with the PD/FD in YOUR TOWN so that you can establish expectations for both teams. Take some responsibility and get to know who you are going to have to work with. Granted, some of the larger county agencies you never know what EXACTLY who will be coming, but sitting down to lunch together and hashing out some details will make things A LOT smoother when it comes time to work together.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Most law enforcement officers are smart enough to take the above actions without training, I just think an interface class would be good. Vice versa, PD should give a Police interface class in the Fire Academy, so that firefighter can help cops out.

Back in 2002 or 2003, the Dutchess County Sheriff's Office Accident Reconstruction Unit came to my FD and have a couple hours lecture, and Powerpoint demonstration on Accident Scene Preservation. Things like this can help FFs to see an accident scene as something other than just a couple wrecked cars and patients, and thinking about it possibly being a crime scene (even down to minor to moderate MVCs), and to be cognizant and make all attempts to not disturb evidence. Now, I am by no means saying that is how FFs think of MVC scenes, but we can get complacent sometimes, and not think of some of these things while attempting to fulfill our own duties.