Mutual Aid Response - how long do you wait?

[Remember585 815]

I was having a fairly "spirited" conversation with a couple of guys recently about Mutual Aid. We started out talking about how we call "XYZ" when we need them, and "XYZ" calls "ABC," and so on. Then it went towards the discussion of the "do you call the closest, or better, resource?" From here, it went to "how long do you wait before saying you can't cover it?"

So, leaving alone the other parts of our conversation, I pose this question to all of you.

HOW LONG DO YOU WAIT BEFORE YOU SAY YOU CAN'T COVER A MUTUAL AID REQUEST?

And, to those of you playing IC, HOW LONG DO YOU WAIT FOR SOMEONE BEFORE GOING TO SOMEONE ELSE?

Not calling out any specific department or incident, but there has definitely been times when I find myself scratching the ol' noggin wondering why a department can't just say "we can't cover it" or why a department or an IC doesn't "give up" and call someone else?

We have our own internal SOG's that makes it clear that we won't delay a request of us, and if we can't cover it, we man up and say so.

But why are some departments not doing this? There's times where you hear repeated tone outs for a FAST, an Engine, a Truck, etc. and you can't help but to wonder why someone doesn't pull the plug and go to someone else.

We all have our moments of reduced personnel, but is it fair to take over 10 minutes, or more, to respond? Especially in the FAST world, because most of us know that those first minutes of a job can be the worst.

Luckily for us, our Mutual Aid always shows up quickly and with ample personnel. And we do our best to return the favor.

I'm not looking for any fighting or "P vs. V" crap, so let's offer some reasons and ideas to make it better.

[JohnnyOV 2]

EGOS

I wish there was a smiley of a pot with a spoon that just keeps stirring.....

On a side note, if you cant meet your minimum staffing requirement for your M/A engine response and get rolling out the door in 5 min, there are bigger things to worry about then operating a specialty unit like FAST. Like I've said before and others have backed me up, you are no good to me, any IC or incident, if you cannot assemble, respond, and arrive on scene after the first tone out. You joined a fire department, not the damn elks lodge, drop your s*** and help your brothers out.

On the same/side note, is there any legal repercussion to a M/A FAST department, if a firefighter is hurt or killed at an incident that would requite a FAST intervention, while the said M/A department is toning out 2/3/4 times for a FASTeam to assemble and respond and has not started rolling their rig yet when the incident occurs?

edited for clarity

Edited June 2, 2010 by EMSJunkie712

[lad12derff 283]

I wish there was a smiley of a pot with a spoon that just keeps stirring.....

You could use my picture

[JAD622 40]

EGOS

On the same/side note, is there any legal repercussion to a M/A FAST department, if a firefighter is hurt or killed at an incident that would requite a FAST intervention

Umm.....Where would you like me to start? In this day and age there would surely be monumental Legal repercussions if someone were killed in this type of scenario. Start with the Chief/IC of the host Department and go from there. Lawyers will go after "Everybody" and catch as many as they can. Something that everyone should keep in the back of their mind when joining the Fire Service in this day and age is that EVERYTHING you do has consequences these days and someone is ALWAYS watching!

[Alpinerunner 61]

Where I volunteer there are all volunteer, combination, and fully paid departments. Only the combination and fully paid departments are called for automatic mutual aid. The volunteer departments will alert dispatch if they are staffed and can provide apparatus and manpower. It works pretty well.

[bad box 371]

EGOS

On a side note, if you cant meet your minimum staffing requirement for your M/A engine response and get rolling out the door in 5 min, there are bigger things to worry about then operating a specialty unit like FAST.

I have difficulty accepting that in this day and age there are some fire departments that consider FAST to be a specialty. Every certified firefighter should be completely competent in all aspects of FAST duties. FAST is every bit as much a part of firefighting as is advancing a hose line or Vent, Enter and Search functions are. When firefighters arrive at the fire ground, they should be prepared to handle any task and use any equipment. Firefighting frequently requires split second decision making and immediate action. This fact can be no more apparent then it is when a Brother / Sister firefighter is trapped and in immediate danger of death.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I have difficulty accepting that in this day and age there are some fire departments that consider FAST to be a specialty. Every certified firefighter should be completely competent in all aspects of FAST duties. FAST is every bit as much a part of firefighting as is advancing a hose line or Vent, Enter and Search functions are. When firefighters arrive at the fire ground, they should be prepared to handle any task and use any equipment. Firefighting frequently requires split second decision making and immediate action. This fact can be no more apparent then it is when a Brother / Sister firefighter is trapped and in immediate danger of death.

As much as I agree with what you are saying, unfortunately that is not how it works, I'm not saying we can't change it, but just right now our state has set up the curriculum that way. And unless the state changes the way new volunteers are taught, and mandate that all current FF receive the new standard, then it won't fully change over for 20+ years, when most of us new guys have gotten too old, had enough and start pulling out and all your left with is FF with the new curriculum.

[bad box 371]

As much as I agree with what you are saying, unfortunately that is not how it works, I'm not saying we can't change it, but just right now our state has set up the curriculum that way. And unless the state changes the way new volunteers are taught, and mandate that all current FF receive the new standard, then it won't fully change over for 20+ years, when most of us new guys have gotten too old, had enough and start pulling out and all your left with is FF with the new curriculum.

It's unfortunate that the state is so far behind the times on such a vital issue as firefighter safety, but then it's incumbent upon the leadership of individual departments to require that all firefighters receive this training. I've been out of the fire service for over eight years now, but when I was still active the career department that I worked for trained ever firefighter in FAST operations and the volunteer department that I belonged to required all firefighters to be certified in FF Safety and Survival as well as FAST. This vital training can easily be the deciding factor as to whether a firefighter lives or dies.

[jaytl42 6]

Getting back to the original topic......fortunately I come from a large department but at times we also could get tapped out or thin on man power for Mutual Aid response. Example if neighboring town at first requesting 1 Ladder to scene, plus 1 engine to standby, generally (100% of the time) we can handle this no problem. But then later perhaps the IC might call for an additional FAST from our town to the scene (our percentage will drop to about 90% for response still good just not 100%). With the help of Battalion Coordinators throughout Westchester, IC's need to determine ahead of time what mutual resources are available. This should include Chief's talking to Chief's of other departments knowing how there membership is doing year in and year out. Where could Chiefs get together???? oh perhaps parades and inspections, could be a good way to network..(uh-oh I said the P-word).. Tradition of calling your neighboring town is not the right/only answer. Perhaps skipping a community (yes someone's feelings might get hurt) or calling multiple agencies for response could be a better solution. that's enough for now......

[x129K 1,393]

I have difficulty accepting that in this day and age there are some fire departments that consider FAST to be a specialty. Every certified firefighter should be completely competent in all aspects of FAST duties.

A - FREAKIN - men!~

And to add to the original topic - I don't think it should fall on the shoulders of the IC at the scene - it should be a pre-planned, pre-designated time frame, the the dispacthers should automatically implement.

I also feel on working fire, or serious emergencies - when a department's non-responding apparatus goes second dispatch, an equal mutual aid peice should be dispatched simoultaneously...

[JohnnyOV 2]

A - FREAKIN - men!~

And to add to the original topic - I don't think it should fall on the shoulders of the IC at the scene - it should be a pre-planned, pre-designated time frame, the the dispacthers should automatically implement.

As much as I agree, again with the current set up in westchester, 60-control is just there to facilitate the needs of the host department. They have no jurisdictional capabilities when it comes to setting up rules across the board like that (correct me if I'm wrong). The Authority Having Jurisdiction must set those parameters and then 60 would abide by them.

[x129K 1,393]

As much as I agree, again with the current set up in westchester, 60-control is just there to facilitate the needs of the host department. They have no jurisdictional capabilities when it comes to setting up rules across the board like that (correct me if I'm wrong). The Authority Having Jurisdiction must set those parameters and then 60 would abide by them.

Oh absolutely...which is why it needs to be set up beforehand......forward thinking can save timne in a crunch...

[wraftery 1,275]

The requirements for fast at an incident begins at the moment the incident leaves the incipient stage and the atmosphere hes the potential for becoming ILDH. Remember 2 in 2 out? Well the purpose of that 2 out is fast.

When we hear an IC calling for a FAST TEAM from dept X and getting an ETA of 20 min, does that mean that IC has been operating up to now without a fast team and will continue to do so for at least 20 more minutes? I hope not, but if you listen to your scanner, it sure sounds that way. That's a far cry fromm operating with members on the first alarm assignment being designated as fast , and then designating an incoming company as fast. The IC that is operating without a fast team and something goes wrong needs two things asap:

1. He still needs FAST, but a bigger team

2. He needs a good lawyer

Edited June 3, 2010 by wraftery

[ex-commish 490]

It's unfortunate that the state is so far behind the times on such a vital issue as firefighter safety, but then it's incumbent upon the leadership of individual departments to require that all firefighters receive this training. I've been out of the fire service for over eight years now, but when I was still active the career department that I worked for trained ever firefighter in FAST operations and the volunteer department that I belonged to required all firefighters to be certified in FF Safety and Survival as well as FAST. This vital training can easily be the deciding factor as to whether a firefighter lives or dies.

Badbox the problem is the leadership. They are afraid to make things mandatory because they either wont get re-elected or they dont want to lose people. Some are more worried about getting that big shiny trophy at the next parade to add to the dust covered ones allready in the case.

[bad box 371]

Badbox the problem is the leadership. They are afraid to make things mandatory because they either wont get re-elected or they dont want to lose people. Some are more worried about getting that big shiny trophy at the next parade to add to the dust covered ones allready in the case.

I agree. I could never rest if I led a department in that fashion and someday had a firefighter seriously injured or killed. It's essential that the folks who take on leadership roles in fire departments make the provision of fire fighting and rescue services 'job one'. It's also essential that folks who choose to become members of a fire department are immediately made well aware of the risks of the profession and the priorities of the department. Personally my mission was to convince everyone to 'train as if their life depended upon it'.

[Beekman 5]

As much as I agree, again with the current set up in westchester, 60-control is just there to facilitate the needs of the host department. They have no jurisdictional capabilities when it comes to setting up rules across the board like that (correct me if I'm wrong). The Authority Having Jurisdiction must set those parameters and then 60 would abide by them.

In Dutchess County, the Dutchess County Chiefs Council sets the policies for the Departments to follow i.e. Radio Plan, Acceptable 6 o'clock announcements, etc. Couldn't this be done in Westchester?

Dutchess also has timers for all dispatched resources including FAST. 5 minutes until 2nd dispatch/retone, then another 3 minutes until 3rd in which it should go mutual aid or to another department.

[x129K 1,393]

In Dutchess County, the Dutchess County Chiefs Council sets the policies for the Departments to follow i.e. Radio Plan, Acceptable 6 o'clock announcements, etc. Couldn't this be done in Westchester?

Dutchess also has timers for all dispatched resources including FAST. 5 minutes until 2nd dispatch/retone, then another 3 minutes until 3rd in which it should go mutual aid or to another department.

Shawn - as 3rd diaptches become more common, has there been any talk to update the replacement from 3rd to 2nd?

[Remember585 815]

In Dutchess County, the Dutchess County Chiefs Council sets the policies for the Departments to follow i.e. Radio Plan, Acceptable 6 o'clock announcements, etc. Couldn't this be done in Westchester?

Dutchess also has timers for all dispatched resources including FAST. 5 minutes until 2nd dispatch/retone, then another 3 minutes until 3rd in which it should go mutual aid or to another department.

We (Westchester) have timers too. Problem that we have is when one unit from said FD signs on "crew asseembling," there's no limit on how long this crew has to assemble.

[x129K 1,393]

We (Westchester) have timers too. Problem that we have is when one unit from said FD signs on "crew asseembling," there's no limit on how long this crew has to assemble.

Then there needs to be...Dutchess does NOT PLAY..you can say "crew assembling" all day long and when the timer hits..the tones drop......

[Remember585 815]

Then there needs to be...Dutchess does NOT PLAY..you can say "crew assembling" all day long and when the timer hits..the tones drop......

What happens when the initial agency covers it - does that 2nd one get canceled?

[Beekman 5]

What happens when the initial agency covers it - does that 2nd one get canceled?

60 Control to Croton Command...what's your pleasure?

[Beekman 5]

Shawn - as 3rd diaptches become more common, has there been any talk to update the replacement from 3rd to 2nd?

As a Chief's Council meeting attendee, and nothing more, I haven't heard any discussions about "Unable to Assemble" or 3rd dispatches or mutual aid abuse at the meetings but there appears to be a willingness to start tackling some of the issues that have plagued the Departments at the Chiefs Council level.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It's unfortunate that the state is so far behind the times on such a vital issue as firefighter safety, but then it's incumbent upon the leadership of individual departments to require that all firefighters receive this training.

Badbox the problem is the leadership. They are afraid to make things mandatory because they either wont get re-elected or they dont want to lose people.

Its not unfortunate, its criminal that the state is so far behind the times on such a vital issue as firefighter safety but that is what the volunteer fire service (thru FASNY) has lobbied Albany hard for years to maintain.

So since the state is unwilling to step up to the plate the volunteer leadership has to; 1st be the chief, be the leader and make it a requirement of your department. Require minimum training standards that are realistic and protect the lives and property of those you swore to protect and most importantly to protect the lives of your members.

2nd be a leader and tell FASNY that lack of training standards is hurting the volunteer fire service and they need to fight to make the standards comprable to what NFPA & ISO require as minimums.

[xchief2x 79]

Barry you are 100% right. Our department is working on by-laws (has to be this way) to improve the training standards for all from a probie up to Chief. The problem is some dinosaurs on our fire council or those that say we are trying to become the FDNY. The chief in a vollie dept can only go so far in some areas unfortunately. I know despite our nay sayers we will get this accomplished even if we lose some "members". Firefighter safety is a battle I will personally never stop fighting for.

[FDVA356 23]

The Emergency Services has changed so much since I joined as a volunteer in the early 90's. The field we all have become a part of, is a ever changing field and you have to stay up with the training or else it could result in injury to yourself or someone else. It's a neccessity to expand your knowledge and polish skills, and if it's become a burden on people, it's time to reconsider what you got yourself into. Standards have changed for a reason, something previously failed causing injury or death and the standards are a minimum way to work. Yes a MINIMUM, at this point in the game we should all have the proper standards for training etc. from the Probie to the Chief Officer, and no such word"greatfathering" should be used. That's a ridiculous word and practice. If you don't meet the proper MINIMUM standard, work to obtain it or there's the door.

[wraftery 1,275]

The Emergency Services has changed so much since I joined as a volunteer in the early 90's. The field we all have become a part of, is a ever changing field and you have to stay up with the training or else it could result in injury to yourself or someone else. It's a neccessity to expand your knowledge and polish skills, and if it's become a burden on people, it's time to reconsider what you got yourself into. Standards have changed for a reason, something previously failed causing injury or death and the standards are a minimum way to work. Yes a MINIMUM, at this point in the game we should all have the proper standards for training etc. from the Probie to the Chief Officer, and no such word"greatfathering" should be used. That's a ridiculous word and practice. If you don't meet the proper MINIMUM standard, work to obtain it or there's the door.

This is not directed at anyone personally, but at everyone personnally.

I think the word is grandfathering, but I'll go along with "great" because it has the same connotation. Grandfathering has pros and cons. Young whippersnappers have the notion that everyone with a lot of time on the job are living dangerously in the past and are know-nothings. Where did you get the standards you are using? Did somebody just dream them up? Yes! It was those old guys that gave you the standards you are using today. If you think the old guys should all start over because some 18 year old State Instructor said we should, you are rather pompous.

I have two sons on-the-job so that makes my father their grandfather (OTJ 1945-62). What did that grandfather he give you? Well for a start, The Westchester Paid FF's Association, precursor of the 5th District NYSPFF. The purpose was to fight for your rights and safety. Then there was formal education for the fire service. Now there was a new concept. Remember the Delehanty Institute? Of course you don't. How about the Westchester Career Fireman's School in Mt. Vernon? Dosen't ring a bell, does it? It was taught by Manny Freid, author of a book called Fireground Tactics, which included subjects like fireground command. The fireground command system had features like Span of Control and Unity of Command and looked very close to ICS. Don't you remember that book?

My generation, 1971-2005, gave you things like college major in Fire Science (my BS was in 1977). Wow! More formal education! We gave you SCBA's...all the time...(not carried in a suitcase, to be used only on special occasions). I wonder who changed that? And not to forget the Trench Cut, invented by trial and error by the FDNY guys in the Bronx during the Burn Baby Burn days. If you are from Westchester, I probably taught you in proby school. There's a new one a combined proby school! Everyone meets the same minimum standard. And Chemistry, Hazmats, Terrorism...boy, my generation was really busy making up things to pass on to the next generation.

Well, thanks for letting me rant. But old guys are allowed to do that. They accuse us of forgetting things too, but the young guys can't remember what their Lt. told them 5 min ago.

OK, I'll try your stanndards as soon as you catch up to me. Move along, too because I'm not gonna wait.

Edited June 5, 2010 by wraftery