Combination Fire Departments- Chain of Command

[16fire5 693]

Career firefighters are aproximatly 20% of the nations firefighters and protect 80% of the population. The average career firefighter gets far more exposure than the average volunteer. Thus the experience part is there quicker. While your entitled to your personal opinion in my experince the chain of command in many combo departments remains heavily volunteer for reasons other than the mission of the department. It ammazes me when a career captain with more firefighting experience than a volunteer lieutenant has been on the earth is outranked by that lieutenant. What's best for the citizens being protected and firefighter safety are more important that the alleged effect on "volunteer morale".

Hey all

Greetings from sunny Camp Leatherneck Afghanistan where I'm about 2 months in on a one year FF contract.

Now to the topic at hand.

I share many of the views that have been expressed here at least in part. Without fail ANY officer should have to meet a minimum series of requirements to serve in any given position whether they are appointed or elected. My dept requires that you pass an in house test to become eligible to run for office (yes we elect our officers). While this may not seem enough it is better than some other options that I have seen.

For me personally I'm a fan of the follwing three step process for officers (regardless of status) be they from a combo dept or not.

1.time served

2.certification/training

3.testing

I do believe that for volunteers electing officers is an acceptable method so long as the criteria above are met. That being said I am without reservation opposed to differing standards within a dept for career and volunteer personnel at any rank. Also I cannot fathom career only and volunteer only officers as this in effect creates two departments in one and only adds to divisiveness and friction. As much as some may take exception to the following, but based on my experiences I think that the officer ranks within a combo department should be filled by volunteer personnel...but again only after the minimums above are met. (If any career people here are offended by my views you are fully within your rights to feel that way, but remember my views are based on my experiences).

Now I fully realize that in many cases career personnel do recieve more training in terms of hours than volunteers, but it is also not that uncommon to find volunteers who have as much if not more experience with actual calls than their career counterparts. As I've said many times (much to chagrin of some) a paycheck does not in and of itself guarantee anything other than a career FF recieves a paycheck. I have been involved with a couple of VFDs that run and work more than many smaller or even mid sized (200+) all career depts. What is of most importance is that the people put into officers positions are qualified to be there regardless of status, but alas this is not always the case on either side of the fire service coin.

It is a monumental task to try to change the "norm" of any department, but as with most anything worthwile the time and effort expended will be well worth it if in the end we produce the highest quality officers our department's are capable of producing because by doing so we all benefit.

Cogs

Peter Cogliano

Firefighter

Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

[antiquefirelt 994]

Career firefighters are aproximatly 20% of the nations firefighters and protect 80% of the population. The average career firefighter gets far more exposure than the average volunteer. Thus the experience part is there quicker. While your entitled to your personal opinion in my experince the chain of command in many combo departments remains heavily volunteer for reasons other than the mission of the department. It ammazes me when a career captain with more firefighting experience than a volunteer lieutenant has been on the earth is outranked by that lieutenant. What's best for the citizens being protected and firefighter safety are more important that the alleged effect on "volunteer morale".

While you certainly have a point, many career firefighters I know who volunteer on days off have no desire to hold any rank in the VFD. Sometimes it's nice to make a stretch, feel some heat and narrow your focus... Of course most of the people I know haven't had any real issues and often are "consulted" onscene vs. bossed around, which I'd be fine with as long as people understand their actual responsibilities.

I personally don't volunteer on the side, as I could not hope to make the local VFD's training's enough. It was suggested the "rules would be relaxed" which was all the more reason to decline the offer. Great bunch of guys, I live across the street from the FH, took many training classes from their chief, taught many of their firefighters/officers and live with the D/C's daughter . Still I'm opposed to any special deals, treatments or considerations. We wouldn't do them at work, I wouldn't want to compromise someone else's integrity even if they didn't care themselves. Since they border our municipal lines we are the first M/A units called anyway.

[wraftery 1,275]

Not that I doubt you - but do you know where this is written? Also, the law that says you need annual safety training (16 hours)? I was trying to find information to back up some of the Departments policies. Of course, the Chief shouldn't need to justify such things - but this is the real world . I know there is some stuff on OSHA's site - Here's a letter that says you need to be ops to respond to a potential Hazmat call, but I haven't seen anything saying that anything beyond Awareness is mandatory for all.

Now I'm not a lawyer (but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express ) - but it seems that you have to look at several different standards and take the most restrictive. I guess you can start with the Fire Brigade, Respiratory Protection and Hazmat standards. On top of that, of course there are the New York laws, such as 'escape systems'. Incidentally, I do see a definition of interior firefighter, or at least what interior structural fire fighting is defined as.

Barry...I'm sure you'll find this.

I seem to remember a publication from OFPC on training called "Administraative Procedures" or words to that effect. It specfies training llike 229hrs for probies and 100 hrs In Service training per year. It also specifies subject and hrs for each subject.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Almost always, regardless of how the company is structured, is seems like volunteer officers control volunteer firefighters and career officers control volunteer officers and firefighters.

The important thing is to stay curteous on scene. As a volunteer Lieu, would gladly accept a command from a career firefighter on scene if it made sense. When I'm working with a career Lieu or above, I always consult with him about the direction to take. In combination departments, the career FFs and officer would naturally work together because they ride together and arrive together. When the vollies get to the scene they meet up with their officer and do what needs to be done.

This only becomes a big issue if someone on either side is a hot head. I find it very important to get a second opinion whenever possible because someone else may see/know something you didn't.

[wraftery 1,275]

Almost always, regardless of how the company is structured, is seems like volunteer officers control volunteer firefighters and career officers control volunteer officers and firefighters.

The important thing is to stay curteous on scene. As a volunteer Lieu, would gladly accept a command from a career firefighter on scene if it made sense. When I'm working with a career Lieu or above, I always consult with him about the direction to take. In combination departments, the career FFs and officer would naturally work together because they ride together and arrive together. When the vollies get to the scene they meet up with their officer and do what needs to be done.

This only becomes a big issue if someone on either side is a hot head. I find it very important to get a second opinion whenever possible because someone else may see/know something you didn't.

Ah, yes. Someone understannds.

You got it, Bro.