Combination Fire Departments- Chain of Command

[firefighter36 52]

After reading through everything relating to the recent fire in Stamford, I decided to start this topic. To those career and volunteer brothers and sisters in a combination department, how does your chain of command work? What are the requirements for officers, etc.? What are your staffing levels and membership rosters, etc?

[M' Ave 1,466]

This is a tough topic and one that's surely going to raise the collective blood pressure. However, that said, I don't believe that you can have a successful combination department if you actively create what ends up being, essentially, two classes of firefighter/officer. How can it really function? You're going to have to preface every officer's title with either "Volunteer" or "Career"? That sounds a bit silly.

I believe that for operational management and individual moral, you can't have a structure like this. I can imagine that you might have a situation where only career members can be officers, or vice versa with only volunteer officers. Or, all things being equal and you have all members holding equally weighted titles, the way it should be.

Now for the tricky part....

....you gotta have equal qualifications and this is where the waters get a little murky. You cannot call a guy who took Intro to Officer and Fire Officer 1 a Lieutenant and have a guy who went to FLIPS 5 days a week for 5 weeks Lieutenant as well. Career officers were promoted through competitive examination while volunteers are voted into office. This does call into question the validity of the member holding that rank as popularity can play an unfortunate roll. The manner in which a person is promoted is something that is simply not going to change, so we're going to have to move past that. Volunteer/Combination departments can bolster the validity of an elected volunteer officer by insuring that the candidate pool is very strong, has a certain number of years of experience and holds far more than the basic set of certifications from state fire classes. FLIPS is almost 200 hours long, so you have to put that in perspective and put together a list of prerequisites that can, at least, somewhat compare. The smart, dedicated volunteers (and I know a bunch) have already or will put in the time. You just have to hope you have enough of them.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

A combination of classes to reach a rank may be the way to go in a volunteer system. Officers Training, Building Construction, Methods of Instruction, Stratigies and Tactics classes like this may be a good back ground for someone to have to now be an eligible candidate for the "Voting" procedure within the volunteer system. Most of the Officers in my Dept. have many of these before they "officially" want to move up the ranks. Make each rank have a certain number of classes to complete before you can move up the ladder.

Edited May 23, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

FLIPS is mandated in NYS law and is not FDNY specific. It is run at FDNY and career depts from around the state send new officers to it. I know it has changed some (I weht over 10 years ago) and at that time I think about 3 hours was devoted to paperwork and FDNY guys and "upstaters" seperated to go over some of that (we were taught the NFIR reports).

The program is not based on FDNY and It was interesting to see how much FDNY officers did not know about what happens outside NYC. My class had 45 FDNY & 15 Upstaters (I live closer to the city than 1/2 the FDNY guys in my class).

[firefighter36 52]

I have been in two different combination fire departments. They operate a bit differently that each other, but much differently than other departments than I have seen.

Fire Department A has 4 fire companies in their jurisdiction. All but one of the 5 stations are manned with career firefighters, in addition to the volunteer companies. Career-staffed rigs respond on dispatch, and volunteers respond to the firehouse and respond on their own apparatus. When rigs are staffed appropriately, they can be first up in the 911 computer. Most notably, this was done when the rescue had a full crew and would take medicals over the career engine. (This was before an ALS program was put online.) The career firefighters answered to a shift commander, the volunteer firefighters answered to a volunteer LT or CAPT, who then answered to the career firefighters or the shift commander, who all ultimately answered to a chief officer. Typically, at scenes, volunteer companies would be assigned tasks just as the career companies would be, and we had few, if any problems. We did our training with the career firefighters, and few, if any career vs volunteer rifts occurred.

Fire Department B has one station and a volunteer fire company, with career firefighters that cross-staff the apparatus. Volunteers answer to their volunteer officers, who answer to the career firefighters and career officers, who answer to chief officers. Due to the difference in the size and staffing of the department, it is not uncommon to see the career and volunteer members working together to accomplish tasks. The volunteers also train with the career staff, and ride as extras if in the station, or respond to the scene in their POV for alarms.

In a nutshell, that is what I have experienced. I have heard of other departments that have volunteer chiefs and other officers overseeing the career side of the department as well, does anyone have a view of a department that operates as such? Could the Stamford incident serve as an example of what could adversely affect such an operation? I am not looking to Monday morning quarterback, just looking to find others who work in different systems and their experiences and all the good/bad/crazy points that come into play.

We have touched on differing qualifications of officers as mandated by NYS State Law on here. Should NYS standards be standardized across the board? How can this be done without sacrificing necessary training and experience?

[Goose 188]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

A combination of classes to reach a rank may be the way to go in a volunteer system. Officers Training, Building Construction, Methods of Instruction, Stratigies and Tactics classes like this may be a good back ground for someone to have to now be an eligible candidate for the "Voting" procedure within the volunteer system. Most of the Officers in my Dept. have many of these before they "officially" want to move up the ranks. Make each rank have a certain number of classes to complete before you can move up the ladder.

Outside career departments ( i know of at least one in Westchester) do send their officer candidates to FDNY FLIPS school. Besides, to be eligible you need 5 years as an FDNY firefighter. That's more experience than probably any volunteer department can offer. As far as the actual content of the class - someone in the know would have to detail that.

I'm not a firefighter, but im close friends with a bunch and the father-in-law is an FDNY Lt on a busy truck and i take issue with the tone of the first part of you're comments. I know the father-in-law is anything but a paper pusher, hes a respected fire officer and leader of firefighters...be that on a fire scene, at the fire house or off duty.

Nice topic bendel, something that needs to be discussed.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Goose

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our Combo FD is changing from a mixed bag of POC officers and career officers to all career. As of now we have one POC captain and three POC Safety Officers. Two of the three SO's are retired Asst Chief from the career division. Career officers include three lieutenants, three assistant chiefs and the Chief of Department. All career officers are chosen after meeting the minimum requirements and taking written and oral board exams. In the past POC officers had to meet different minimum criteria and are appointed.

The issue for us is that rank is rank and having POC captain's outranking career lieutenants who have far more training, testing and OJT puts them in a difficult position. While they all understand their rank, they also are very aware that they area also responsible, so pulling rank is never an issue and generally the best person for the IC's job, is the one who has command. Anything above a still alarm gets a career chief officer even if it from off duty.

Our system is functional, but less than ideal. It's tough having two divisions period. Integration is very problematic when it nearly impossible to hold both to the same criteria. While many of our Union would like to see the POC's go away, it would only mean relying on mutual aid POC's that we have far less control over...Not a good solution.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

A combination of classes to reach a rank may be the way to go in a volunteer system. Officers Training, Building Construction, Methods of Instruction, Stratigies and Tactics classes like this may be a good back ground for someone to have to now be an eligible candidate for the "Voting" procedure within the volunteer system. Most of the Officers in my Dept. have many of these before they "officially" want to move up the ranks. Make each rank have a certain number of classes to complete before you can move up the ladder.

I'm sorry, but beware the person who says they know it and don't need to learn it in class. Everyone from the 15 year old Junior FF to the Chief of Dept. in the FDNY has something to learn. Only a small portion of FLIPS is FDNY specific and that is an extra week that doesn't include the "upstaters". 200 hours of class to learn how to lead a company of 5 men/women into a fire is nothing. FDNY proby school was almost 1,000 hours in total and when I got out I was still just a proby who knew nothing about nothing. Now I'm the Johnny who knows a little about nothing. For an officer, 200 hours only scratches the surface as far as tactics and personnel management are concerned, but I think that like all course work, it gives us the tools with which to maximize the effect of our experience. This is why newly promoted Captains are sent to the Captains Development courses and likewise for Battalion Chiefs and on and on...

There is always something new you need to learn.

In the volunteer service, it would be nice if prior work experience or professional position could be factored into officer candidacy. If you're involved in the emergency services as a career, that's a little extra experience brought to the table. Perhaps someone is a personnel manager in their professional life and has a leg up on delegating responsibility and separating themselves from the rank and file.

Tying this back to the original question about career and volunteer officers in a combo dept; there doesn't need to be a separation. With a tightly regulated promotion program in the career side, the onus is on the volunteer organization to insure proper legitimacy of fire officers. Some departments do this very well by strictly enforcing a very high training standard and assigning meaningful responsibility. However, the 21 year old who joined at 18, never had a job, barely has the min. training requirements and was simply voted into an officers position is the problem. Weak standards hurt rank as a whole, because many people don't know the difference between the guy who's doing it as a career and their neighbor who's looking out for them at the sound of the alarm horns.

[Remember585 815]

I've taken both the Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses. I am also a NYS Certified Fire Officer Level I. My main concern with the officer training courses is that they don't focus on tactics. You review paperwork, employee management, record keeping, public relations, public eductation and briefly touch on size-up and implementing an action plan. Now, I am not knocking these programs, they have their good points, but to be an effective, more confident officer you need to be taught what to do after getting on the scene.

In our department, we have been debating back and forth for a couple of years as to which courses each position should complete as they move up the ranks. One of our best guys and former officers has stated that for company level officers, it's more beneficial to take courses such as AVET, TCO, etc. instead. I almost agree, but I think the better answer lies with OFPC implementing a better group of courses for officer development. Take the Intro to Fire Officer Class and call it Fire Officer I, make Fire Officer I a Fire Officer II, etc. Make these classes more situationally driven so new officers aren't rolling up to a scene and wondering what to do.

There's a lot of great books and Instructors out there (Salka, Norman, Brunacini, etc.) that help new officers get a grasp of things. I'd love to see courses like the FLIP school availalable to volunteer officers as well. Maybe then we could be given more credit and viewed more closely as equals. I know that a lot of the decisions we will make as officers are derived from a few sources, which include training, experience and the good ol' gut reaction. The election process (see: popularity contest) is antiquated. The days of saying it's someone's turn, or voting for the kid who goes to the most calls are gone.

We can fool ourselves into thinking the current officer classes make us better officers, but we all know how that really goes.

And as far as combination departments and their chain of command - make officer training (and for that matter, firefighter training) as equal as possible for everyone so the playing field is the same and we lose some of the bickering and battling that is only going to destroy the fire service.

[firefighter36 52]

And as far as combination departments and their chain of command - make officer training (and for that matter, firefighter training) as equal as possible for everyone so the playing field is the same and we lose some of the bickering and battling that is only going to destroy the fire service.

Bingo! Do you think it is the drastically different in training requirements that fuels much of the resentment and friction we sometimes see?

[ex-commish 490]

I know that a lot of the decisions we will make as officers are derived from a few sources, which include training, experience and the good ol' gut reaction. The election process (see: popularity contest) is antiquated. The days of saying it's someone's turn, or voting for the kid who goes to the most calls are gone.

The present system is a joke. I have seen it recently in action at it's worst myself. Untill those who can make the changes grow a set and demand better the current process will continue and we will continue to "promote" based on popularity, allright guy, yes men, etc.

[wraftery 1,275]

Bingo! Do you think it is the drastically different in training requirements that fuels much of the resentment and friction we sometimes see?

For training, contact time with career is 42 hrs per week, vols is a couple of hours per month. Their training will never be even unless you lower training for the paid force. Not knocking vols, just stating the numbers.

Friction comes because of people that create friction. And they will create friction no matter what the circumstances are.

[antiquefirelt 994]

While we all seem to know the election of officers is outdated at best, dangerous at worst, there's still a large segment that believes this is a valid process. Similarly, the two standards in combo dept's really is the only realistic way for the volunteer/POC guys to have any officers. I'm not saying I agree with two standards, as I do not, but I do understand reality, which says a guy that works 40-50 hours a week and has to meet the same standards as our career officers will not find time for anything else. Reality says it's far "easier" to attend training, gain more experience and study when it's your primary job.

The issue is that we've collectively raised the standards of officership of the fire service and exist in a far more aware world where we know that not only is it safer for our personnel to be lead by better qualified officer, but legally we'll be held to the higher (highest?) standards. Higher standards are better for us as a whole and the public.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I've taken both the Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses. I am also a NYS Certified Fire Officer Level I. My main concern with the officer training courses is that they don't focus on tactics. You review paperwork, employee management, record keeping, public relations, public eductation and briefly touch on size-up and implementing an action plan. Now, I am not knocking these programs, they have their good points, but to be an effective, more confident officer you need to be taught what to do after getting on the scene.

This is basically what is taught in FLIPS. The fire ground tactics is a prerequsite and is the basis for the civil service testing. The basics should not be taught as officer training since tactics should be part of firefighter training. How can you run if you do not know how to crawl?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Outside career departments ( i know of at least one in Westchester) do send their officer candidates to FDNY FLIPS school. Besides, to be eligible you need 5 years as an FDNY firefighter. That's more experience than probably any volunteer department can offer. As far as the actual content of the class - someone in the know would have to detail that.

I'm not a firefighter, but im close friends with a bunch and the father-in-law is an FDNY Lt on a busy truck and i take issue with the tone of the first part of you're comments. I know the father-in-law is anything but a paper pusher, hes a respected fire officer and leader of firefighters...be that on a fire scene, at the fire house or off duty.

Nice topic bendel, something that needs to be discussed.

What tone? Its a FACT the further you move along the ladder the more BS paperwork you have to deal with. Maybe you have not reached a supervisory level in your career yet, but when you do, you will see...alot more paperwork.

I was just trying to point out when people use specific hours to describe a course there may be many hours included in the said course that a Volunteer Officer would not need...so one person may need 200 hours and another may need 125 hours...thats all.

Edited May 24, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[gss131 212]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

The exercise you speak of is on day 1.It not only serves as an icebreaker for up to 40 men from around the state who may or may not know one another,but stresses the importance of being prepared for the lesson plans for the purposes of training.Day 1 is is the start of a week long course dedicated to training in the fire service and is completed on Friday with State and National Exams for Certified Fire Instuctor.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I've taken both the Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses. I am also a NYS Certified Fire Officer Level I. My main concern with the officer training courses is that they don't focus on tactics. You review paperwork, employee management, record keeping, public relations, public eductation and briefly touch on size-up and implementing an action plan. Now, I am not knocking these programs, they have their good points, but to be an effective, more confident officer you need to be taught what to do after getting on the scene.

In our department, we have been debating back and forth for a couple of years as to which courses each position should complete as they move up the ranks. One of our best guys and former officers has stated that for company level officers, it's more beneficial to take courses such as AVET, TCO, etc. instead. I almost agree, but I think the better answer lies with OFPC implementing a better group of courses for officer development. Take the Intro to Fire Officer Class and call it Fire Officer I, make Fire Officer I a Fire Officer II, etc. Make these classes more situationally driven so new officers aren't rolling up to a scene and wondering what to do.

There's a lot of great books and Instructors out there (Salka, Norman, Brunacini, etc.) that help new officers get a grasp of things. I'd love to see courses like the FLIP school availalable to volunteer officers as well. Maybe then we could be given more credit and viewed more closely as equals. I know that a lot of the decisions we will make as officers are derived from a few sources, which include training, experience and the good ol' gut reaction. The election process (see: popularity contest) is antiquated. The days of saying it's someone's turn, or voting for the kid who goes to the most calls are gone.

We can fool ourselves into thinking the current officer classes make us better officers, but we all know how that really goes.

And as far as combination departments and their chain of command - make officer training (and for that matter, firefighter training) as equal as possible for everyone so the playing field is the same and we lose some of the bickering and battling that is only going to destroy the fire service.

"From Buddy to Boss" is a great book to read.

Getting back to the original topic, here in Nassau the 2 combo Dept.s, the highest rank the career guys can reach is Captain. The Volunteer Chiefs of the Depts. are in charge but the relationships seem to be ok. Both Dept.s have a larger volunteer force and have to rely on each other to get the job done. A Career LT. has authority over a Volunteer Captain though. In one Dept. the current Lt's did not want to move up to Captain for various reasons, so they hired a Captain from outside the ranks of the current career ranks, no one wanted the spot.

Edited May 24, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I hate using "hours" when trying to describe a course...is the FDNY FLIPS, job specific to the FDNY? Meaning, is there 16 hours of learning paperwork and forms that an FDNY Officer will need to know, or other Dept. "Office" procedures. 8 hours on what to do when someone calls in sick and how to cover the spot. The excersise where you are given an object in an envelope to describe in front of the class takes up a day. So when you get down to it, not everyone will need this 200 hours of Officers traininig. I learned paperwork on the fly as a 2nd Lt. no need to include any of this in a class. JMO.

The exercise you speak of is on day 1.It not only serves as an icebreaker for up to 40 men from around the state who may or may not know one another,but stresses the importance of being prepared for the lesson plans for the purposes of training.Day 1 is is the start of a week long course dedicated to training in the fire service and is completed on Friday with State and National Exams for Certified Fire Instuctor.

I did this exercise in a Methods of Instruction Class here in Nassau, the instructor was an FDNY FLIPS instructor. And as you said it was all about the difference of being prepared to speak on a topic, as opposed to one not being prepared. 1 person in the class knew what the object would be in his envelope before hand, so he had time to think about what he would say to the class. The others had to do it on the fly....speak 2 or 3 minutes about a paperclip!!!!!

Talking to the instructor about Officer training, he even said if such a program was developed for Nassau, the hours could be cut down alot because of the specific nature of some of the material..and by breaking up certain topics into other classes.

Edited May 24, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[gss131 212]

ame='gss131' date='24 May 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1274718934' post='211511']

I did this exercise in a Methods of Instruction Class here in Nassau, the instructor was an FDNY FLIPS instructor. And as you said it was all about the difference of being prepared to speak on a topic, as opposed to one not being prepared. 1 person in the class knew what the object would be in his envelope before hand, so he had time to think about what he would say to the class. The others had to do it on the fly....speak 2 or 3 minutes about a paperclip!!!!!

wow, you got a paperclip i? i only got a keychain.

[exmrvfc 0]

As Far as FDNY FLIps, the attendess come out with the following NYS certifications:

A first line officer completing this program receives certification in Educational Methodology, Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness, Fire Cause and Origin Determination, Haz Mat First Responder Operations, Fire Instructor Level 1, and Fire Officer Level 1.

At minimum, My opinion is that a volunteer officer should have the Fire behavior, Haz Mat Ops and Fire Officer I out of the FLIP classes to be eligible to be "elected" as an officer. I would leave the instructor level classes to the MTO. This is in addition to the Firefighter level courses of FF1, FF2, AVET, Truck Co Ops, Pump Ops, SAfety & Survival. You need those classes to fight fires and any potential officer should already have them. I also think HazMat ops should be Firefighter level and HazMat Incident Command should be the officer level class. If people want to be officers, they should set the example and have the classes. If people are resistant to taking classes and making themselves better firefighters, maybe they shouldn't be leading the department. The above list is not meant to be all inclusive as I didn;t even get to the NIMS classes. Just going off of FLIPs list per the FDNY site.

[ex-commish 490]

As Far as FDNY FLIps, the attendess come out with the following NYS certifications:

A first line officer completing this program receives certification in Educational Methodology, Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness, Fire Cause and Origin Determination, Haz Mat First Responder Operations, Fire Instructor Level 1, and Fire Officer Level 1.

At minimum, My opinion is that a volunteer officer should have the Fire behavior, Haz Mat Ops and Fire Officer I out of the FLIP classes to be eligible to be "elected" as an officer. I would leave the instructor level classes to the MTO. This is in addition to the Firefighter level courses of FF1, FF2, AVET, Truck Co Ops, Pump Ops, SAfety & Survival. You need those classes to fight fires and any potential officer should already have them. I also think HazMat ops should be Firefighter level and HazMat Incident Command should be the officer level class. If people want to be officers, they should set the example and have the classes. If people are resistant to taking classes and making themselves better firefighters, maybe they shouldn't be leading the department. The above list is not meant to be all inclusive as I didn;t even get to the NIMS classes. Just going off of FLIPs list per the FDNY site.

I disagree on leaving out instructor level classes mainly because volunteer depts do not have MTO's and rely on the company officers to conduct the training. Even depts with training officers or supplemental instructors should not be without company officers who lack formal training on how to conduct training for the members.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I disagree on leaving out instructor level classes mainly because volunteer depts do not have MTO's and rely on the company officers to conduct the training. Even depts with training officers or supplemental instructors should not be without company officers who lack formal training on how to conduct training for the members.

I'd agree there. Passing on knowledge is probably one of the most important roles an officer has. Nothing like an officer who takes the time to ensure his/her people understand their jobs (and his). To be a Fire Officer 1 per NFPA standards you must have Fire Instructor 1. There are plenty of great firefighters who promoted only to realize they weren't good officers, if you can't help your firefighters be great too, who will?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I also think HazMat ops should be Firefighter level

Its required by law for all FF's in NYS to be allowed to respond. It is also required to have an annual recertification. When I was at FLIPS the BC in charge told me it was added to make sure all FDNY officers had it.

[Monty 35]

Its required by law for all FF's in NYS to be allowed to respond. It is also required to have an annual recertification. When I was at FLIPS the BC in charge told me it was added to make sure all FDNY officers had it.

Not that I doubt you - but do you know where this is written? Also, the law that says you need annual safety training (16 hours)? I was trying to find information to back up some of the Departments policies. Of course, the Chief shouldn't need to justify such things - but this is the real world . I know there is some stuff on OSHA's site - Here's a letter that says you need to be ops to respond to a potential Hazmat call, but I haven't seen anything saying that anything beyond Awareness is mandatory for all.

Now I'm not a lawyer (but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express ) - but it seems that you have to look at several different standards and take the most restrictive. I guess you can start with the Fire Brigade, Respiratory Protection and Hazmat standards. On top of that, of course there are the New York laws, such as 'escape systems'. Incidentally, I do see a definition of interior firefighter, or at least what interior structural fire fighting is defined as.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here's a letter that says you need to be ops to respond to a potential Hazmat call, but I haven't seen anything saying that anything beyond Awareness is mandatory for all.

Years ago we were told that all MVA's are considered potential haz-mat incidents, so you can see where that would take you... Up here in the Northeastern corner state, this is an old argument with little resolution. Most VFD's argue that nothing over awareness is mandated, while most career FD's, DEP and EMS folks say Ops is the minimum to respond for PD, Fire and EMS. Of course not even 75% have Ops, so the argument has yet to be successfully answered despite years of battle between the State Fire Chief's and the DOL.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Not that I doubt you - but do you know where this is written? Also, the law that says you need annual safety training (16 hours)? I was trying to find information to back up some of the Departments policies. Of course, the Chief shouldn't need to justify such things - but this is the real world . I know there is some stuff on OSHA's site - Here's a letter that says you need to be ops to respond to a potential Hazmat call, but I haven't seen anything saying that anything beyond Awareness is mandatory for all.

1910.120(q)(6)

Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (March 7, 1996), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident.......

The standard says emergency operations at an incident, and since by OSHA's definition CO, NAt. Gas, Propane, blood born, fuel, etc. are hazardous materials all calls; fire, odors, MVA's, etc. are by defalt hazmat.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)

First responder operations level. First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release. They are trained to respond in a defensive fashion without actually trying to stop the release. Their function is to contain the release from a safe distance, keep it from spreading, and prevent exposures. First responders at the operational level shall have received at least eight hours of training or have had sufficient experience to objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas in addition to those listed for the awareness level and the employer shall so certify:.......

NYS sited many FD's in Naussau county back in the mid 1990's for substandard training after they went to HM Awarness level. by the definition: ops is the minimum level for firefighters.

And I stayed in a Hyatt

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Thats about the time Nassau did away with the Hazmat awareness class. The classes offered now are Hazmat operations, which is required in my dept. (We provide a Hazmat Engine for the 7th Batt. decon unit) and Hazmat technician.

Edited May 25, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thats about the time Nassau did away with the Hazmat awareness class. The classes offered now are Hazmat operations, which is required in my dept. (We provide a Hazmat Engine for the 7th Batt. decon unit) and Hazmat technician.

Prior to that NYS had HM I and HM II. When the OSHA reg came along, they tried to do the right thing, but missed the boat. Awarness is considered the minimum for EMS & Law Enforcement ((maybe Fire/Police might fall into this catagory)

Edited May 25, 2010 by Bnechis

[FFPCogs 863]

Hey all

Greetings from sunny Camp Leatherneck Afghanistan where I'm about 2 months in on a one year FF contract.

Now to the topic at hand.

I share many of the views that have been expressed here at least in part. Without fail ANY officer should have to meet a minimum series of requirements to serve in any given position whether they are appointed or elected. My dept requires that you pass an in house test to become eligible to run for office (yes we elect our officers). While this may not seem enough it is better than some other options that I have seen.

For me personally I'm a fan of the follwing three step process for officers (regardless of status) be they from a combo dept or not.

1.time served

2.certification/training

3.testing

I do believe that for volunteers electing officers is an acceptable method so long as the criteria above are met. That being said I am without reservation opposed to differing standards within a dept for career and volunteer personnel at any rank. Also I cannot fathom career only and volunteer only officers as this in effect creates two departments in one and only adds to divisiveness and friction. As much as some may take exception to the following, but based on my experiences I think that the officer ranks within a combo department should be filled by volunteer personnel...but again only after the minimums above are met. (If any career people here are offended by my views you are fully within your rights to feel that way, but remember my views are based on my experiences).

Now I fully realize that in many cases career personnel do recieve more training in terms of hours than volunteers, but it is also not that uncommon to find volunteers who have as much if not more experience with actual calls than their career counterparts. As I've said many times (much to chagrin of some) a paycheck does not in and of itself guarantee anything other than a career FF recieves a paycheck. I have been involved with a couple of VFDs that run and work more than many smaller or even mid sized (200+) all career depts. What is of most importance is that the people put into officers positions are qualified to be there regardless of status, but alas this is not always the case on either side of the fire service coin.

It is a monumental task to try to change the "norm" of any department, but as with most anything worthwile the time and effort expended will be well worth it if in the end we produce the highest quality officers our department's are capable of producing because by doing so we all benefit.

Cogs

Peter Cogliano

Firefighter

Dyncorp/LOGCAP IV

Camp Leatherneck

Afghanistan

Edited May 25, 2010 by FFPCogs

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