Are Tarrytown Firefighters Getting Hosed?

[FD7807 59]

"Seems like there is always some kind of internal drama with Tarrytown FD over the years, either with personel, stations, equipment, gaming machines, training tower, parades etc"

Listen as someone who is supposed to be running an above board posting site do not call out departments past issues like that. Everyday that you turn on a TV news some departments cop or firefighter did something wrong whether it be on the job or off duty. Please do not make me start a list and you off all people should know that. All departments FIRE PD OR EMS PAID OR VONUNTEER have skeletons. Do not dare use this site to call out another's past

"

[x635 4,066]

Listen as someone who is supposed to be running an above board posting site do not call out departments past issues like that. Everyday that you turn on a TV news some departments cop or firefighter did something wrong whether it be on the job or off duty. Please do not make me start a list and you off all people should know that. All departments FIRE PD OR EMS PAID OR VONUNTEER have skeletons. Do not dare use this site to call out another's past

"

I don't understand what you're saying. Over the past 10 years, has there not been significant drama within Tarrytown FD that has been publicized? I am not calling out the department, just saying there seems to be a lot of reocurring tension within the department, which is relevant to this situation.

This was publicized in the local newspaper, and therefore we are discussing the situation based on what we have. Don't demonize the site for it. If anyone's comments are incorrect, feel free to provide the facts. And FYI, this is being discussed on other forums and published on other sites as well. And it is sparking notice from fire apparatus industry professionals.

My views posted here have NOTHING to do with the administration of this site. Also, you have no right to tell myself or any other member how to use this site. That's what the moderators are here for, and any thread a moderator is involved in another moderator moderates-but I AM NOT A MODERATOR exactly because of this perception you have,nor do I dictate anything to them-they have their own independent workgroup and I take care of the admin and tech stuff. FYI. Also, who said we don't call out department's past issues like that? Are you making rules by yourself for this forum that don't exist?

Also, what do you think the educated common taxpayers who read this article will take from this? And are you a property owner in Tarrytown Village? As a taxpayer (if you are), how do you feel about this?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Some posts in this thread have been removed due to inappropriate exchanges. While this may be a sore subject for some, please keep all personal exchanges to PMs, and let the thread remain as a discussion for the facts at hand.

[LineCapt 134]

Doesn't Tarrytown has a fleet made up almost entirley of E-Ones?

[FF402 133]

Well, this pretty much sums up the Village's stance:

http://www.tarrytowngov.com/Pages/TarrytownNY_TrusteesMinutes/I02A2674D

Will they have to renovate the firehouse to make room for this engine?

Edited May 22, 2010 by FF402

[JBE 328]

Just a question out of curiosity, since I'm really not familiar with the area, or the politics. Could it possibly be that after TL-78 cost nearly $1 million or just over $1 million, that the town government is going to be a little more observant of what the FD is spec'ing out, hence the controversy we have??

[antiquefirelt 994]

Just a question out of curiosity, since I'm really not familiar with the area, or the politics. Could it possibly be that after TL-78 cost nearly $1 million or just over $1 million, that the town government is going to be a little more observant of what the FD is spec'ing out, hence the controversy we have??

Interestingly, we were at ALF speccing our tower right after Tarrytown got their's and one of the engineers was getting ready to work with representatives of the Saudi Arabian delegation to build two towers and he noted that they'd have to really work to spend more money than Tarrytown per truck!

[FD7807 59]

what people do not realize is that the Village Board hired a consultant to spec that truck and he actually made changes to the existing spec that raised the price of the rig by $15 K

Interestingly, we were at ALF speccing our tower right after Tarrytown got their's and one of the engineers was getting ready to work with representatives of the Saudi Arabian delegation to build two towers and he noted that they'd have to really work to spend more money than Tarrytown per truck!

[firecapt32 282]

Doesn't Tarrytown has a fleet made up almost entirley of E-Ones?

No there are various apparatus within the village.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Whether we like it or not, there are those who are the ones in the position to sign the checks and exactly why we "spec" apparatus. I don't care what department this involves and I'm not going to even put any names in here but alot of this sounds similar in other agencies I've seen or heard. Sour grapes because we didn't get what we wanted. Only thing that can be said is tough. Get over it and make it work for you. I don't play the inferior apparatus game. They are all generally the same components from other manufacturers with their body and name plate on it. Cummins motor, Allison Transmission, Hale/Waterous/Darley pump etc. But yet, I bet like many others who have never operated another manufacturer or styly...will say it sucks or its a piece of crap. Based on what..emotion and opinion.

Whoever said you get what you pay for. Perhaps...but anyone who's been around apparatus long enough know this isn't always the case with fire trucks. I've seen the most expensive apparatus with tons of problems, while the commercial demo problem free for years. Same as the comment if your spec'ing something it must because they determined they need it. Yeah right. That's all I can say on that and pretty sure all I have to for most on this site.

You get what you put maintenance and care into. Be glad there are areas still purchasing apparatus period. There are people out there fighting to keep their jobs and several have lost their jobs this week and we're squabbling over the fact there is someone out there crying over a 400k? appartus because someone wanted a 600k engine. Get real. Ask someone in that department who works for the village if it came down to cutting someones job(particularly there's) or getting that apparatus and see how they feel.

The apparatus I'm assigned at work could use to be replaced. But doesn't really need to be. No crying on our part, the economy sucks, it is uncertain and I'd rather be able to get people turnout gear if needed to be replaced, staffing to ensure consistant fire and ems response, etc. That truck can last a couple more years if it stays the way it is mechincally. Only thing that's really wrong with the truck is rust that is rapidly getting worst. Fiscially purdent to wait and responsible to.

Good luck with the new apparatus.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just a question out of curiosity, since I'm really not familiar with the area, or the politics. Could it possibly be that after TL-78 cost nearly $1 million or just over $1 million, that the town government is going to be a little more observant of what the FD is spec'ing out, hence the controversy we have??

Was the cost what scared them off, or the fact that with what appears to be little planning the dept wanted to replace an engine with a tower ladder. When I say little planning, I base it on the fact that the tower was purchased for a station that it would not fit it. How long did it sit at the dealer before they figured out what to do with it?

Interestingly, we were at ALF speccing our tower right after Tarrytown got their's and one of the engineers was getting ready to work with representatives of the Saudi Arabian delegation to build two towers and he noted that they'd have to really work to spend more money than Tarrytown per truck!

I wonder what they would think of this $726,000 engine (that the village rejected in December, even thought the FD insisted that they needed it). Whats interesting is the price came down $116,000 once there was compatition.

what people do not realize is that the Village Board hired a consultant to spec that truck and he actually made changes to the existing spec that raised the price of the rig by $15 K

So on a $985,000+ rig they added $15,000, what for? You make it sound like it was there fault you spent so much. If it was for something important like adding a Telma retarder (which will help slow the vehicle and ruduce the cost of maintenace)or an additional year of warrenty or was it for fluff?

[SteveOFD 176]

Booster reel???? Do you have to water the hanging baskets in the business district????

No we don't, the Village Parks Dept. does that with a pickup truck. This was a decision of the Apparatus Committee, of which I was one vote, and did not agree with. BUT, I do have a picture of a small NJ Career FD that waters the planters along the main street in town with a five gallon bucket fed from the trash line discharge on the front bumper of their Tower Ladder

[x635 4,066]

what people do not realize is that the Village Board hired a consultant to spec that truck and he actually made changes to the existing spec that raised the price of the rig by $15 K

What were the changes that caused the price to rise? Specifics please.

Doesn't Tarrytown has a fleet made up almost entirley of E-Ones?

No there are various apparatus within the village.

Cap, from their website it appears they currently run almost all E-Ones, including Riverside House, except for their ALF Tower Ladder.

[x635 4,066]

Also, another question about the new Eninge, will it fit inside Riverside Hose? I know the current Engine is kind of a tight fit.

Thanks for the info.

[2209 0]

what people do not realize is that the Village Board hired a consultant to spec that truck and he actually made changes to the existing spec that raised the price of the rig by $15 K

I think Irvington used the same consultant and built there rig for about $535,000.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think Irvington used the same consultant and built there rig for about $535,000.

Yep.

[FD7807 59]

two different trucks 2 different consultants: The consultant that quote referred to was Ed Peters from Jersey City FD who was retained by the Village Board toconsult on the 2005 Tower Ladder spec. East West Apparatus was retained by IFD and the Tarrytown VIllage Board on their pumper projects in 2009

I think Irvington used the same consultant and built there rig for about $535,000.

[antiquefirelt 994]

what people do not realize is that the Village Board hired a consultant to spec that truck and he actually made changes to the existing spec that raised the price of the rig by $15 K

It's really not a big concern or mine, but it shows the typical thought process of many taxpayers may not be far off. First are you sure it wasn't Bill Peter's? Second, the paint alone probably costs an additional $15K as I recall this is special metallic flake paint? And was the final cost not $1.2 million or more? What ever, hopefully it works out well and your have enough people to man it in a timely manner. But it's not hard to see why there'd be some questions about the fire district's spending. BTW consultants are not necessarily hired to save you money. In fact if you have it, they'll gladly help you spend it. Most really help you with the things you have little or no clue about, but rearely would discourage adding things regardless of cost, unless your budget was shot. So unless you handed Peter's a real short list of what you wanted and said design us a TL, I doubt the cost has much to do with him. Look at what his FD buys, and I bet they run a few more fires than TFD?

[FD7807 59]

it may have been Bill Peters its been 5 years I do not recall. My point was more that this was not just some crew of volunteer idiots thumbing through Fire Engineering and the ALF catalog and say oh yeah we want that and oh yeah we need that. The Village hired someone in the field for a second opinion and he not only liked it but added to it (they were mechanical and equipment achanges not anything superficial). In addition one of the committee members was a career ladder man with FDNY so this was not just some hairbrained idea. Not sure if that is what you were inferring there but just clearing the air on that.

It's really not a big concern or mine, but it shows the typical thought process of many taxpayers may not be far off. First are you sure it wasn't Bill Peter's? Second, the paint alone probably costs an additional $15K as I recall this is special metallic flake paint? And was the final cost not $1.2 million or more? What ever, hopefully it works out well and your have enough people to man it in a timely manner. But it's not hard to see why there'd be some questions about the fire district's spending. BTW consultants are not necessarily hired to save you money. In fact if you have it, they'll gladly help you spend it. Most really help you with the things you have little or no clue about, but rearely would discourage adding things regardless of cost, unless your budget was shot. So unless you handed Peter's a real short list of what you wanted and said design us a TL, I doubt the cost has much to do with him. Look at what his FD buys, and I bet they run a few more fires than TFD?

[Guest apparatusbuff]

The Crimson Bid did provide a 10 man cab so the statement that it did not is false. I looked at the Crimson specs.

I also herd that the City of Buffalo just awarded Crimson a big contract for pumpers and aerials.

[FD7807 59]

FD7807, on 23 May 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:

My post reffered to the 2005 American LaFrance, which I was not involved in. I wasnt involved in this purchase either.

[antiquefirelt 994]

it may have been Bill Peters its been 5 years I do not recall. My point was more that this was not just some crew of volunteer idiots thumbing through Fire Engineering and the ALF catalog and say oh yeah we want that and oh yeah we need that. The Village hired someone in the field for a second opinion and he not only liked it but added to it (they were mechanical and equipment achanges not anything superficial). In addition one of the committee members was a career ladder man with FDNY so this was not just some hairbrained idea. Not sure if that is what you were inferring there but just clearing the air on that.

Not trying to infer anything Brother, just stating that apparatus costs can obviously be all over the board, depending on who is doing the speccing. I'd say in 99% of the cases the apparatus committee is most responsible for the final price of the apparatus relative to the actual prices of products, materials, and build costs. The problem I see is that purchases like this can haunt you later with taxpayers as they start to feel the pinch of the economy. Kicking and screaming over the engine forced upon the FD, at the cost of over $600K will only add salt to the wound.

Situations being as different as they are, we'd be repairing our apparatus with duct tape if it would ensure we'd keep our staffing at the understaffed level we are today. We have the faith of the majority of our tax base, owed to working hard to keep their trust with reasonable capital requests, cost cutting efforts and a truly transparent budget and spending policies. I wouldn't trade that trust for any shiny trucks no matter who's badge was on the grill.

Sometimes you just have to take a page from our brothers across the pond and keep a stiff upper lip!

[Monty 35]

Nice concept, but I highly doubt thats how this rig will run.

The Paris Fire Brigade runs something like that:

On a reported structure fire the send 1) Heavy Pump, 1 Light Pump and 1 ladder. Manning is as follows:

Heavy Pump: 1 Commissioned Officer (like a Batt Chief), 1 MPO, 2 Sgts (or 1 and a Cpl) each with 2 firefighters

Light Pump: 1 MPO, 1 Sgts & 2 firefighters

Ladder: 2 firefighter (they are for exterior ladder ops only)

This gives them an IC, 2 pump operators, 1 ladder operator (& FF) and 3 interior teams (attack, search, etc.)

total of 14 on 3 rigs

I used to run with a Department upstate that had a truck with 8 seats - and those seats were full for many of the calls. We would usually be split into two teams, often with two line officers on the truck. Like with other situations, if there was no Officer on the truck, the position would be filled by the 'senior firefighter'.

[Remember585 815]

I used to run with a Department upstate that had a truck with 8 seats - and those seats were full for many of the calls. We would usually be split into two teams, often with two line officers on the truck. Like with other situations, if there was no Officer on the truck, the position would be filled by the 'senior firefighter'.

It's basically like that here. For example, when we run a FAST call, we split into two or three teams, depending on our manpower. For day to day calls, there's usually no more than 4-5 members on an apparatus, so the Officer leads the crew. If there's more then that, crews split with either another officer/senior FF or members get sent to assist a short-handed company, if needed.

In Tarrytown's case, my guesstimation is that they try and pack the rigs so nobody takes a POV to incidents on the thruway, no?

[Guest]

There's no need for a 10 man cab if you ever go to a tarrytown scene there are personal vehicles everywhere with hazards, blue lights and some even still running, I've seen FF in personal cars out running rigs to there calls with blue lights

[billfitz 109]

Did I read that right 726K for a pumper!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

[Bnechis 3,961]

Did I read that right 726K for a pumper!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

You read that right.

Thats what happens when you only have one bidder and everyone knows it was written for them.

Thats why the board thru out the bid.

And it still has not been answered, will the new rig fit in the house or will they add $5m to the engine for the station?

[Guest ff101]

You read that right.

Thats what happens when you only have one bidder and everyone knows it was written for them.

Thats why the board thru out the bid.

And it still has not been answered, will the new rig fit in the house or will they add $5m to the engine for the station?

Go to a board meeting and ask. See if you can get an answer there either

[Bnechis 3,961]

Go to a board meeting and ask. See if you can get an answer there either

If the board can not get that kind of an answer from the FD (like with the tower ladder) they should never sign the check.

[FD7807 59]

Listen I do not know where you get your facts from but here are facts as they pertain to the tower ladder. THe village is the one who came to us about recloating to the south end of town as our old firehouse was obsoltete. No pumper would fit in there without derious modification. THey not only knew of the concept of not fitting they made it happen for us. THat's a fact. No one just went out and spent that kind of money and said whoops that didn't fit. I have heard that has happened in Westchester but that was not hte case here. You could not fit any 2000's style pumper in that firehouse it simply outgrew its useful life.

If the board can not get that kind of an answer from the FD (like with the tower ladder) they should never sign the check.