Are Tarrytown Firefighters Getting Hosed?

[Remember585 815]

I have also seen depts that want the taxpayers to pay for things like a 3,000 gpm pump so that we will have the biggest pump in the county and we will get called to all the big mutual aid jobs...hello, you want your taxpayers to spend $$ on a rig to protect everyone else?

I agree, spec'ing a rig to be bigger or better then someone else, or specifically for Mutual Aid, is insane. But in this case, I don't think that's what happened.

Although I am quite familiar with some of these rigs you speak of...

[EJS1810 7]

10 man cab, Driver, Officer, 4 facing back, 4 facing forward. My engine is a "10" man cab. the 4 forward facing seats include 2 flip down "Jump" seats (Non SCBA) . We have 7 SCBA seats ( Officer, 4 rear facing, and 2 foward facing). Do we fill them all the time, no. sometimes yes. Do we have 7 SCBA on the fire scene for use, Yes.

Sounds like the Crimson does not have the 2 flip down "Jump Seats". I do not agree with the Village (AHJ by the way) interfeing with what the FD wants/specs but in these economic times it all comes down to the bottom dollar.

I would be more concerned if the Department wanted Stainless/Aluminum for longer life and the village bought Galveneel for the lower priice

[Bnechis 3,961]

10 man cab, Driver, Officer, 4 facing back, 4 facing forward. My engine is a "10" man cab. the 4 forward facing seats include 2 flip down "Jump" seats (Non SCBA) . We have 7 SCBA seats ( Officer, 4 rear facing, and 2 foward facing). Do we fill them all the time, no. sometimes yes. Do we have 7 SCBA on the fire scene for use, Yes.

So if there is only one officer and 9 firefighters, how do you deal with span of control or is that just ignored?

[Rescue85 4]

Come on Guys. Let get real. Sounds like Riverside Hose company was not the one getting HOSED!! Sounds like they were trying to HOSE the city. $620,000 for an ENGINE. This is what's wrong with the volunteer fire service. Why do you need apparatus with all the bells and whistles on it?? All this does is drive the cost of the apparatus up. Does it make it more usefull, better?? NO!! For $620,000 you could but two Class A engines into service in any city. Folks need to start purchasing what's useful and practical for the city. I think in the times were are in, the city did a smart move and put the fire company in their place. And yes, I agree with several of the writers, that although the Crimson name only is relatively new, it is not a new piece of apparatus. This was a merger of two outstanding fire apparatus manufacturers. So, Riverside Hose your squirting the wrong hose.

[firecapt32 282]

This still might be a new episode of"Who's the Boss" or "Charles in Charge" Can the fire department just have cart blanch on anything they want?? or is there a responsibility to the public to get the best at the best cost?? I am sure there are good intentions on both sides, and as long as the safety of the firefighters and the public are not in danger---buy the best with what you have. Just a note-- there are at least members of the Tarrytown Board of Trustees that have affiliation/and or belong to the Fire Department. So it's not like they are doing this with their eyes shut.

[FD7807 59]

A lot of the hard feelings stem from the fact that when you subtract the Greenburgh protection money from the FD budget the village pays about $100 K for a fully functioning FD. Many who were close to the process felt that unlike years past there was minimal input from the FD and that if the Village of TT was so worried about making cuts they need to realize that out of the $18 million village budget the FD represents $100 K or 1/180 of that budget. Seems like they should be a blip on the radar compared to other departments or projects.

This still might be a new episode of"Who's the Boss" or "Charles in Charge" Can the fire department just have cart blanch on anything they want?? or is there a responsibility to the public to get the best at the best cost?? I am sure there are good intentions on both sides, and as long as the safety of the firefighters and the public are not in danger---buy the best with what you have. Just a note-- there are at least members of the Tarrytown Board of Trustees that have affiliation/and or belong to the Fire Department. So it's not like they are doing this with their eyes shut.

[Bnechis 3,961]

A lot of the hard feelings stem from the fact that when you subtract the Greenburgh protection money from the FD budget the village pays about $100 K for a fully functioning FD. Many who were close to the process felt that unlike years past there was minimal input from the FD and that if the Village of TT was so worried about making cuts they need to realize that out of the $18 million village budget the FD represents $100 K or 1/180 of that budget. Seems like they should be a blip on the radar compared to other departments or projects.

While the budget may only be listed at $100K does that include the millions in bonds on the new fire stations, the million or so on the tower ladder, the insurance (both workers comp and vehicle) plus rigs that are substanstally more than anyone else in the county is paying for and anything else not listed in the budget?

[IzzyEng4 427]

Come on Guys. Let get real. Sounds like Riverside Hose company was not the one getting HOSED!! Sounds like they were trying to HOSE the city. $620,000 for an ENGINE. This is what's wrong with the volunteer fire service. Why do you need apparatus with all the bells and whistles on it?? All this does is drive the cost of the apparatus up. Does it make it more usefull, better?? NO!! For $620,000 you could but two Class A engines into service in any city. Folks need to start purchasing what's useful and practical for the city. I think in the times were are in, the city did a smart move and put the fire company in their place. And yes, I agree with several of the writers, that although the Crimson name only is relatively new, it is not a new piece of apparatus. This was a merger of two outstanding fire apparatus manufacturers. So, Riverside Hose your squirting the wrong hose.

I agree with you! That rig better be coming in with a lot of equipment. When we replaced our well-worn 25 year old pumper with our new rig, we looked at Seagrave initially. Well it was around $450,000.00 without equipment. There was no way at the time our city was going to pay that much. So we shopped around and actually got the same speced out rig that we wanted for $120,000.00 less and knew it would be good for our department. Yes a lot of us wanted a Seagrave originally but in the end we still got a great rescue-pumper that has had only minor issues since being placed into service.

But money and politics go hand in hand and sometimes you can't always get what you want and have to make sacrifices. Also, if the bids went out and Crimson met the specifications with minimum exceptions and was the lower price, well then you can't disqualify them. If they were then it becomes a whole different legal issue.

[FD7807 59]

THe rigs are not substantially more then anyone else in the county is getting that is just not true. Also we keep our trucks longer then most departments. THe tower ladder replaced a 25 year old engine and the Crimson will replace a 1988.In addition the 1988 E One aerial will be replaced as well so by the time it is all said and done it will be a 23-25 year old lag time between trucks. And a serious question to those who get $350 K or $450 K trucks how long are they kept > 15 years ?

Also the village pays workmens comp for all employees of all departments so if it drives the FD budget up, it drives all budgets up.

While the budget may only be listed at $100K does that include the millions in bonds on the new fire stations, the million or so on the tower ladder, the insurance (both workers comp and vehicle) plus rigs that are substanstally more than anyone else in the county is paying for and anything else not listed in the budget?

[NWFDMedic 58]

THe rigs are not substantially more then anyone else in the county is getting that is just not true. Also we keep our trucks longer then most departments. THe tower ladder replaced a 25 year old engine and the Crimson will replace a 1988.In addition the 1988 E One aerial will be replaced as well so by the time it is all said and done it will be a 23-25 year old lag time between trucks. And a serious question to those who get $350 K or $450 K trucks how long are they kept > 15 years ?

Also the village pays workmens comp for all employees of all departments so if it drives the FD budget up, it drives all budgets up.

I often hear the argument made that "we keep our apparatus longer than someone else". Coming from a department that owns a 1989 engine that isn't going to (or need to) be replaced anytime soon, I can certainly understand the benefit of an apparatus that is durable enough to stand the test of time.

However, what is the "real" cost? Assume that your requested $688,000 engine lasts 25 years and a $450,000 engine will last your department 15 years. That makes the average "yearly" cost of the more expensive engine approximately $27,500 and the less expensive engine approximately $30,000. When you take into further consideration the increased maintenance costs and OOS days for the engine when it is 15-25 years old versus, the more expensive engine in the long run may just be that, more expensive.

[johnvv 20]

In regards to responding to fire calls with all seats in a 10 man cab filled, are two of the seats filled with Officers? It seems to me that the "span of control" of the people responding on the rig is exceeded.....

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

If span of control is 2-7 individuals, would it be exceeding span of control if with the 10 men, 1 is designed driver and attends to the rig, 1 is designed IC or lead officer and the remaining 8 them are divided into two different groups of 4 men each, each group with its own senior FF. This way you still maintain span of control, still have an IC, still have an MPO, and now low and behold, you have enough guys for two attack lines or an attack and search line. Divide the teams again into 3 and in the IC, you now have 3 three man teams and you still have an MPO outside the structure, all with ten guys.

[Rescue85 4]

NWFDMedic: In theory you cost analysis makes good sense, however, in the real world there is no difference in the life span between the $680000 rig vs $450000 rig. It boils down to many volunteer fire companies when they purchase a new rig outfit the engine/ladder/rescue or whatever piece they are purchasing with a lot of extra, high dollar'd un-necessary bells, whistles, etc. Lets face it, an engine should be designed to carry firefighters, hose and equipment to the fire scene. By adding unnecessary extended jump seat areas, hydraulic generators, digital flow meters, wrap around foam systems, light towers, scene lighting (do I need to go on) only adds to the price of rig. Keep it simple and you will keep the cost of the rigs down. Departments should order and receive what they need to do their jobs and not a wish list, at the tax payers expense, of what they want.

[x635 4,066]

2 more thoughts.....

I believe only Seagrave provides a stainless steel cab that is very study. All other manufacturers use aluminum. I don't know why this would be an issue for Tarrytown, as a majority of their apparatus is constructed entirely of aluminum.

Another thing, if Tarrytown is sending 10 firefighters out of district, what if something happens in Tarrtown?

Also, as other people mentioned, specs should be as generic as possible. If the fire department submits specs, then it is the responsibility of the village to award the contract to the lowest biddder. In fact, it seems like Tarrytown has been lavished in cash over the past few years.

Municpalities don't usually dicatate what a department purchases. If DPW goes to bid for sand/salt for winter, and 3 bidders come in with the same salt/sand product, is the village going to pick the highest bidder? As far as the ammunition for PD is concerned, if PD spec's a certain brand and type of bullet to go with, and 3 different vendors come in with the same price for the same product spec'd, isn't it their responsibility to pick who can procide it at the lowest cost?=

There is a ton of bid rigging going on in Westchester, and it's always been common practice. Most often, dealers write the specs for the departments, or some consultants (no one in particular) write biased bids for departments who want a certain product.

Now, if they wanted something like a Seagrave Aerialscope or Pierce PUC, that's a different story since those are unique products. Of course, we all know Seagrave is reliable, but they are very pricy which is why you see them mostly in service with big budget departments, especially volunteer. They've recently introduced some lower cost items, but I feel Seagrave really needs to step up in the pricing arena in order to succesfully compete....especially when Ferrara, Spartan, and Pierce introduce stainless steel cabs. You get what you pay for, but at what cost in this economy?

[DaveTFD 0]

The article claims that Greenburgh pays $220k a year to Tarrytown to cover the Greenville section of town. Im not trying to start anything, but im just curious if this is correct? If so, why is this done when Greenville has its own career department?

As for Riverside getting a new engine, i hope all works well for them regardless. Ive never been involved with spec'ing a rig, but man, i guess i didnt realize how expensive engines have gotten.

The article meant "Glennville", not "Greenville"

[FD7807 59]

what a lot of the uproar was over was partially firematics but was also a lot politics. what people outside of TT were not really in the loop about was that the same Village Board built a lavish (by their words not ours) VIllage Hall with soup to nuts ammenities with certain Truestees using quotes like "whats another $235 K when y ou are spending $10 Million ?? " Then to turn around and tell the FD that they needed to be fiscally responsible it left a bad tasste in many peoples mouthes

2 more thoughts.....

I believe only Seagrave provides a stainless steel cab that is very study. All other manufacturers use aluminum. I don't know why this would be an issue for Tarrytown, as a majority of their apparatus is constructed entirely of aluminum.

Another thing, if Tarrytown is sending 10 firefighters out of district, what if something happens in Tarrtown?

Also, as other people mentioned, specs should be as generic as possible. If the fire department submits specs, then it is the responsibility of the village to award the contract to the lowest biddder. In fact, it seems like Tarrytown has been lavished in cash over the past few years.

Municpalities don't usually dicatate what a department purchases. If DPW goes to bid for sand/salt for winter, and 3 bidders come in with the same salt/sand product, is the village going to pick the highest bidder? As far as the ammunition for PD is concerned, if PD spec's a certain brand and type of bullet to go with, and 3 different vendors come in with the same price for the same product spec'd, isn't it their responsibility to pick who can procide it at the lowest cost?=

There is a ton of bid rigging going on in Westchester, and it's always been common practice. Most often, dealers write the specs for the departments, or some consultants (no one in particular) write biased bids for departments who want a certain product.

Now, if they wanted something like a Seagrave Aerialscope or Pierce PUC, that's a different story since those are unique products. Of course, we all know Seagrave is reliable, but they are very pricy which is why you see them mostly in service with big budget departments, especially volunteer. They've recently introduced some lower cost items, but I feel Seagrave really needs to step up in the pricing arena in order to succesfully compete....especially when Ferrara, Spartan, and Pierce introduce stainless steel cabs. You get what you pay for, but at what cost in this economy?

[DaveTFD 0]

Another thing, if Tarrytown is sending 10 firefighters out of district, what if something happens in Tarrtown?

Is this really a question? when hartsdale goes to fairview for a fire, what do they do when something happens in hartsdale? As not just a member of Tarrytown FD, but a resident...I am pretty happy with the fact that we have more than 10 guys in our department willing to respond to alarms. So when we send 10 firefighters out of the district, we use the other 5 companies with all of their manpower to protect tarrytown. Also, if there is any thing we need more guys for, mutual aid is a helpful thing.

[antiquefirelt 994]

THe rigs are not substantially more then anyone else in the county is getting that is just not true. Also we keep our trucks longer then most departments. THe tower ladder replaced a 25 year old engine and the Crimson will replace a 1988.In addition the 1988 E One aerial will be replaced as well so by the time it is all said and done it will be a 23-25 year old lag time between trucks. And a serious question to those who get $350 K or $450 K trucks how long are they kept > 15 years ?

Also the village pays workmens comp for all employees of all departments so if it drives the FD budget up, it drives all budgets up.

I'll guarantee there's very little in a $620K engine vs. a $320K engine that will greatly help it's service life. Anyone who's planning on a new apparatus being a 20-25 year investment, regardless of the cost, is going to be sadly disappointed. The new trucks will need major electrical overhauls much sooner than years past, and most body materials are inferior to years past. The difference between the 15 year replacement and the 30 year plan is almost always the end users and their PM program.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Boy I am going to stay out of this, "BUT" we just bought a engine that seats 6 and is has a load of "STUFF ' on it for less then $550,000.00 from a major company!

[firecapt32 282]

Now that we are dealing with this--- dosent the Greenburgh money get split and go to the individual companies as well as the Village?? I belive so. The village which by the way just built not one but two new fire stations---just what the department wanted--over the objections of a lot of tax payers is finally realizing that they have an obligiation to the tax payers. One more thing if the Village was prudent and wise they would have looked into grant money but they havent. Lots to say on both side of the issue.

[FD7807 59]

Actually the VIllage of TT put in for AFG grants for hte last 3 years for apparatus. All 3 years theapparatus applications were denied but the VIllage/FD did just get an AFG Operations and Safety grant for $243 K for the 2009 application year

Now that we are dealing with this--- dosent the Greenburgh money get split and go to the individual companies as well as the Village?? I belive so. The village which by the way just built not one but two new fire stations---just what the department wanted--over the objections of a lot of tax payers is finally realizing that they have an obligiation to the tax payers. One more thing if the Village was prudent and wise they would have looked into grant money but they havent. Lots to say on both side of the issue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

THe rigs are not substantially more then anyone else in the county is getting that is just not true.

Boy I am going to stay out of this, "BUT" we just bought a engine that seats 6 and is has a load of "STUFF ' on it for less then $550,000.00 from a major company!

I can think of 4 or 5 in the last year and all were substantually less (not including PCFD ENG58) Can you tell us who has spent anything close as I have yet to hear of anyone spending like this on an engine.

Also the village pays workmens comp for all employees of all departments so if it drives the FD budget up, it drives all budgets up.

My point was do you pay the workers comp out of that $100K or does the village pay for that and all the bonds and other items above and beyond the $100K?

I often hear the argument made that "we keep our apparatus longer than someone else".....However, what is the "real" cost? Assume that your requested $688,000 engine lasts 25 years and a $450,000 engine will last your department 15 years. That makes the average "yearly" cost of the more expensive engine approximately $27,500 and the less expensive engine approximately $30,000. When you take into further consideration the increased maintenance costs and OOS days for the engine when it is 15-25 years old versus, the more expensive engine in the long run may just be that, more expensive.

Anyone who's planning on a new apparatus being a 20-25 year investment, regardless of the cost, is going to be sadly disappointed. The new trucks will need major electrical overhauls much sooner than years past, and most body materials are inferior to years past. The difference between the 15 year replacement and the 30 year plan is almost always the end users and their PM program.

This is why the new NFPA standards require a total rehab at 15 years and retirement at 25 years (but only if it had the refirb). Add that cost and you will spend 2 - 3 times more

[Bnechis 3,961]

If span of control is 2-7 individuals, would it be exceeding span of control if with the 10 men, 1 is designed driver and attends to the rig, 1 is designed IC or lead officer and the remaining 8 them are divided into two different groups of 4 men each, each group with its own senior FF. This way you still maintain span of control, still have an IC, still have an MPO, and now low and behold, you have enough guys for two attack lines or an attack and search line. Divide the teams again into 3 and in the IC, you now have 3 three man teams and you still have an MPO outside the structure, all with ten guys.

Nice concept, but I highly doubt thats how this rig will run.

The Paris Fire Brigade runs something like that:

On a reported structure fire the send 1) Heavy Pump, 1 Light Pump and 1 ladder. Manning is as follows:

Heavy Pump: 1 Commissioned Officer (like a Batt Chief), 1 MPO, 2 Sgts (or 1 and a Cpl) each with 2 firefighters

Light Pump: 1 MPO, 1 Sgts & 2 firefighters

Ladder: 2 firefighter (they are for exterior ladder ops only)

This gives them an IC, 2 pump operators, 1 ladder operator (& FF) and 3 interior teams (attack, search, etc.)

total of 14 on 3 rigs

[Bnechis 3,961]

we just bought a engine that seats 6 and is has a load of "STUFF ' on it for less then $550,000.00 from a major company!

So thats $70,000 - $130,000 (depending on which price one is to believe) for 4 seats or $17,000-$32,000 per seat. Buy a van

[SteveOFD 176]

Boy I am going to stay out of this, "BUT" we just bought a engine that seats 6 and is has a load of "STUFF ' on it for less then $550,000.00 from a major company!

As PCFD58 notes, there are other less expensive brands that will do the same thing. We have on order a KME with 10K Generator, built in foam system, and a booster reel for less than $535K.

[billfitz 109]

$690,000 - I hope there was $200K in loose equipment or maybe 200K in cash in the glove compartment - if the specs are developed properly and the vendor held accountable for exceptions low bidder should not be a problem.

[LTNRFD 266]

and a booster reel for less than $535K.

Booster reel???? Do you have to water the hanging baskets in the business district????

[x635 4,066]

what a lot of the uproar was over was partially firematics but was also a lot politics. what people outside of TT were not really in the loop about was that the same Village Board built a lavish (by their words not ours) VIllage Hall with soup to nuts ammenities with certain Truestees using quotes like "whats another $235 K when y ou are spending $10 Million ?? " Then to turn around and tell the FD that they needed to be fiscally responsible it left a bad tasste in many peoples mouthes

What about Tarrytown's 2 brand new firehouses that are pretty lavish? Who cares what the Village Board did in this situation? Just because they were fiscally irresponsible in your opinion, does that mean that the fire department is just being fiscally irresponsible to prove a point? Are they showing their opposition by being fiscally lavish? The bad taste in peoples mouths...I understand...but c'mon....

[FD7807 59]

Listen guy you are not from here and do not know 1/10 of what actually went on. First off have you seen these buildings or are you going off of price tags alone ?And yes a lot of residents including some FD members wwere upset about the actual price tag of the project and not what the politicians said it would cost (they made a bold claim that building 2 buildings would be $760K cheaper then 1 2 bay building) THat unfortunately was no where nears true. And i did not use the term fiscally responsible, they did. And as said earlier a lot of the unrest within the FD was against hte politicians being responsible on the firetruck project yetthrowing money around on other projects within the village without any regards to "fiscal responsibility"

What about Tarrytown's 2 brand new firehouses that are pretty lavish? Who cares what the Village Board did in this situation? Just because they were fiscally irresponsible in your opinion, does that mean that the fire department is just being fiscally irresponsible to prove a point? Are they showing their opposition by being fiscally lavish? The bad taste in peoples mouths...I understand...but c'mon....

[x635 4,066]

Seems like there is always some kind of internal drama with Tarrytown FD over the years, either with personel, stations, equipment, gaming machines, training tower, parades etc.

Maybe we don't know 1/10th of what's going on, but maybe someone could explain since it's in the press. The core issue here is the Engine bid. It seems like since Seagrave was the only one who could qualify for the bid since a stainless steel cab was spec'd. We all know Seagrave is the cadillac of fire apparatus in some cases, and Excelsior provides excellent sales support and service. And Spartan and Seagrave cabs are different. However, Tarrytown's apparent claims and actions that Seagrave is the only apparatus that will work for them, especially when it costs significantly more is ridiculous. To carry ten guys also limits it to Seagrave, as most manufacturers won't make that capacity cab anymore for safety and maintainence reasons.

This basically is just another case of a department writing a specific spec so that no one else can win the bid that got caught in the news. I don't know if that's technically bid rigging if Seagrave is the only one who can meet the spec...is that a "loophole"?

Also, Tarrytown FD made some outrageous comments in the article that the public may not realize but the numerous people who have a ton of experience spec'ing rigs on this thread, as well as on other forums nationally, did. The people speaking on Tarrytown's behalf completly contradict themselves numerous times in the article, show ignorancy in the knowledge of the fire apparatus industry, failure to do their homework, and provide false facts. And, call out East-West to say they aren't qualified is ridiculous. The two partners in the company have spec'd rigs for FDNY and LAFD. They obviously had concerns that a third party might call them out. The Tarrytown trying to rig the bid on public record!!! And the Village is on record as saying that it did follow proper guidelines, which they apparently did. But again, this is common practice with avoiding the proprietarty bid system, it's not just Tarrytown, but they sure have shone the spotlight on it.

I just keep re-reading that article in disbelief that fire service officials could actually make those kind of statements. AND, to top that, they basically eluded that other fire companies in the Village have spec'd apparatus very poorly!