The Annual Parade Debate Thread 2010

[Bnechis 3,961]

How does one determine "best apparatus" or "best overall" ?

Edited May 18, 2010 by x635
***SPLIT FROM "CHAPPAQUA PARADE RESULTS " THREAD BY x635 TO KEEP TOPIC ON TOPIC****

[Mofire24 27]

the county judges have rules they go by I think they have a website with all the break down of how they judge and what they look for I think it's westchester parade judges association

[x129K 1,393]

How does one determine "best apparatus" or "best overall" ?

Thinking about marching in a few?

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

How does one determine "best apparatus" or "best overall" ?

That's easy, the one that can put out the most fire !!

[provfd 49]

the county judges have rules they go by I think they have a website with all the break down of how they judge and what they look for I think it's westchester parade judges association

Westchester County Parade Judges Association. http://www.wcpja.com/ Their rules are on line, but won't help you figure out the finer points of the apparatus category. They will show you how departments score for the line of march and how they get demerits. Apparatus comes down to cleanliness and organization and goes into lots of detail that you learn over time. Windshields and all windows need to be clean (they will roll up a window that is rolled down to check it), driver needs to be belted in and they will open the door to check. They will also open a compartment on each truck. Thye also run a glove along the rub rails and the wheeel arches. Those areas need to be cleaned and waxed just like the painted surfaces.

[Raz 14]

driver needs to be belted in and they will open the door to check.

They will open the door of a moving vehicle to check for safety. Yes, someone found logic in this.

[ex-commish 490]

How about we do away with the trophies and judging and just march and wave to the kids. Who cares if my firetruck is cleaner than yours?

[provfd 49]

They will open the door of a moving vehicle to check for safety. Yes, someone found logic in this.

the driver stops for the cab door, the compartments are opened while underway, unless the parade happens to be stopped.

[provfd 49]

How about we do away with the trophies and judging and just march and wave to the kids. Who cares if my firetruck is cleaner than yours?

There are plenty of depts that do just that, the other do that and compete. Seems to be a harmless win-win to me.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thinking about marching in a few?

Nope, just trying to figure if its the biggest, longest, most expensive most lights or one that actually was designed to fight a fire.

That's easy, the one that can put out the most fire !!

After reading the rules, thats not one of the requirements.

Westchester County Parade Judges Association. http://www.wcpja.com/ Their rules are on line, but won't help you figure out the finer points of the apparatus category......driver needs to be belted in and they will open the door to check. They will also open a compartment on each truck. Thye also run a glove along the rub rails and the wheeel arches. Those areas need to be cleaned and waxed just like the painted surfaces.

The rules are very interesting. NFPA and OSHA standards are easier and simpler. A lot of work went into these. Lets look at a few:

"Judging will not be performed within fifty (50) feet of any corner, at any sharp bend, at any steep grade, or at any encumbrance in the Line of March, except by those judging Apparatus. No judging will occur while a unit is stopped, stopping or starting."

So lets throw out safety and most dept. SOP's. Amazing that no judges have been run over.

"Talking, Waving, Laughing, Chewing Gum, Sobriety, Smoking. Ten (10) demerits each."

Yep, you never see these things at a parade.

"10- Haircuts and beards shall be neat and well kept. If the hair is not neat trimmed or is disheveled it is subject to five (5) demerits. There is no rule on hair length. The rule refers to appearance."

Beards are ok in the fire service?

"1 - All apparatus and vehicles must drive to rear of last group. Maximum spacing is twenty (20) feet from last group and twenty (20) feet between each apparatus and vehicle. Two (2) demerits each."

20 feet, sounds like tailgating to me, what does traffic law say on this one?

"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."

How do they know whats missing?

"17- Refreshments or non-firematic equipment are not permitted on apparatus or vehicles. Five (5)demerits."

So who carries the beer? THis also explains the MCI's that have occured at a few parades when everyone drops from the heat.

"18- Current dated inspection tags must be on extinguisher. Two (2) demerits each."

I guess these depts don't actually use extingushers to fight fires with

"21- Additional demerits for Pumpers: Covered hose beds Ten (10) demerits (Full covers need not be completely removed, but must allow hose bed viewing for inspection.)"

In violation of NFPA Standards.

And the one the explains why depts in Westchester can never consolidate: "Two or more Departments marching together as One Unit are disqualified."

[helicopper 1,050]

Wow! I find it absolutely amazing that there can be a comprehensive set of rules for judging a parade in Westchester County and people actually compete to comply with them yet when it comes to the firematic side of things we have no standads for training, staffing, dispatch, response, mutual aid, operations, or accountability.

Aren't we focusing on the wrong side of things? Shouldn't we adopt a set of rules for fireground operations and have judges come to scenes to make sure we're doing it by the book?

Mind-boggling!

[Remember585 815]

I still like going to parades - to a point. I'm all about marching in our own community and our neighbors, because it reminds our community that we exist. Often times when you go to a parade in a neighboring community, civilians from your community go too. I'm proud to belong where I do, and I know the rest of my department is too. But for most of us, we've grown tired of the competitive nature parades have always been, and focus on safety and functionality on our apparatus.

Our Engines always get demerits for "dirty hosebeds" because they're packed to easily deploy. Our newest Engine has a hosebed cover, and we got gig'd 10 points twice that I know of for having it down. I agree with Andy (HFD219) that we should march for the people that came out to see us, not to take home trophies. Many of the departments with firehouses full of trophies are commonly full of members that I wouldn't want on a line with me.

I am more proud of my department when we have 30-40 members coming to drills, our response times are good, our rigs are filled with competent people and we put out fires without losing buildings, hurting our people or needlessly killing someone. That's why I am proud, no trophy can put out a fire, cut someone out of a wreck or jump in the water and save someone.

Keep the parades but lose the semi-moronic judging rules. Give credit for safety and efficiency, and if it matters to so many people, give out marching trophies.

Keep the musical trophies too, those bands are out there doing a great job.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Remember585

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wow! I find it absolutely amazing that there can be a comprehensive set of rules for judging a parade in Westchester County and people actually compete to comply with them yet when it comes to the firematic side of things we have no standads for training, staffing, dispatch, response, mutual aid, operations, or accountability.

Aren't we focusing on the wrong side of things? Shouldn't we adopt a set of rules for fireground operations and have judges come to scenes to make sure we're doing it by the book?

Mind-boggling!

Maybe if they gave trophies:

Best Rescue

Fastest Knockdown

Most fondation Saved, etc.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And once again something with the intent to be fun gets mashed and mangled by the pro's. Parades aren't for everyone and not everyone takes parades to this extreme. Some depts go to parades for fun and go home. Some also go to support other depts. And I sit here and wonder why I have to explain this to grown men who act like they don't know what a parade is. MIND BOGGLING!

"Mangled by the pro's"?

The pros have parades also and we enjoy them as well. But how can you enjoy them if you get demerits for talking, waving or laughing?

Yes parades are for everyone, we all enjoy both watching and participating, but if you follow all these rules, your priority is not protecting the community that you swore to protect. Your priority is to win a trophy.

I'm so sorry that I asked what makes the "best" and then read the rules.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Bnechis

[helicopper 1,050]

After reading the rules, thats not one of the requirements.

"Talking, Waving, Laughing, Chewing Gum, Sobriety, Smoking. Ten (10) demerits each."

Yep, you never see these things at a parade.

Wait a second, there are demerits for sobriety? That's interesting but how does anyone stay in line after complying with that rule!

[provfd 49]

Nope, just trying to figure if its the biggest, longest, most expensive most lights or one that actually was designed to fight a fire.

After reading the rules, thats not one of the requirements.

The rules are very interesting. NFPA and OSHA standards are easier and simpler. A lot of work went into these. Lets look at a few:

"Judging will not be performed within fifty (50) feet of any corner, at any sharp bend, at any steep grade, or at any encumbrance in the Line of March, except by those judging Apparatus. No judging will occur while a unit is stopped, stopping or starting."

So lets throw out safety and most dept. SOP's. Amazing that no judges have been run over.

That's for the marching part of the unit becuase you lose cadence at corners and at rest. Part of the judging is for being in step which is hard to judge when nobody is moving.

"Talking, Waving, Laughing, Chewing Gum, Sobriety, Smoking. Ten (10) demerits each."

Yep, you never see these things at a parade.

Not in the line of march for units being judged you don't. Or take the 10 point hit.

"10- Haircuts and beards shall be neat and well kept. If the hair is not neat trimmed or is disheveled it is subject to five (5) demerits. There is no rule on hair length. The rule refers to appearance."

Beards are ok in the fire service?

juniors,

All membership is eligible to march, juniors, fire police, support personnel and ladies auxiliary (I think the beard thing is for them).

"1 - All apparatus and vehicles must drive to rear of last group. Maximum spacing is twenty (20) feet from last group and twenty (20) feet between each apparatus and vehicle. Two (2) demerits each."

20 feet, sounds like tailgating to me, what does traffic law say on this one?

At 2 mph, 20 feet is not so close.

"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."

How do they know whats missing?

How about an empty bracket, that might give it away.

"17- Refreshments or non-firematic equipment are not permitted on apparatus or vehicles. Five (5)demerits."

So who carries the beer? THis also explains the MCI's that have occured at a few parades when everyone drops from the heat.

There is plenty to drink before at after parades, you cannot carry the coolers in vehicles being judged. Or you can, and take the demerits.

"18- Current dated inspection tags must be on extinguisher. Two (2) demerits each."

I guess these depts don't actually use extingushers to fight fires with

It isn't so hard to keep them tagged.

"21- Additional demerits for Pumpers: Covered hose beds Ten (10) demerits (Full covers need not be completely removed, but must allow hose bed viewing for inspection.)"

In violation of NFPA Standards.

I believe you are reading this one backwards, you lose points for the hose covers which in effect supports the NFPA view. .

And the one the explains why depts in Westchester can never consolidate: "Two or more Departments marching together as One Unit are disqualified."

If they consolidated they would be, um, one department.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Chris192

[gamewell45 258]

"10- Haircuts and beards shall be neat and well kept. If the hair is not neat trimmed or is disheveled it is subject to five (5) demerits. There is no rule on hair length. The rule refers to appearance."

Beards are ok in the fire service?

Yes, they are so long as the person is not an interior firefighter.

[DDixie 12]

I thinking the idea of judging the parades is a good one. It encourages departments to spiff up their apparatus, have their men or women take pride in their uniform and work to make it look good, and shows the citizens of our communities that the fire dept is not only proud of the work they do, but proud enough to want others to be impressed. As we all know, a good impression is a lasting impression. If everyone just showed up with dirty trucks, uniforms thrown on and missing equipment then people may begin to think less of the fire service and those that make the fire service what it is. Continue the judging - - a little healthy competition is good for all!

[Alpinerunner 61]

There should be a catagory where one judges whether a rig is NFPA 1901 compliant!

[StOpGoBlUE 11]

Quote

"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."

How do they know whats missing?

How about an empty bracket, that might give it away.

im sorry but i thought the reason we spend all the money on there fire trucks and aparratus is to work on fire scenes and get memebrrs there safely.. not to look pretty in a parade granted winning a trohpy is great .i can tell you i had missing equipment on my truck at the parade cause we had a fire on tuesday and i had to take my chainsaw out of service.. sorry but im not gunna rush a piece of equipment to go back in servie soo it can fill and open spot in my compartment..

[provfd 49]

Quote

"16- Missing equipment will be subject to three (3) demerits each."

How do they know whats missing?

How about an empty bracket, that might give it away.

im sorry but i thought the reason we spend all the money on there fire trucks and aparratus is to work on fire scenes and get memebrrs there safely.. not to look pretty in a parade granted winning a trohpy is great .i can tell you i had missing equipment on my truck at the parade cause we had a fire on tuesday and i had to take my chainsaw out of service.. sorry but im not gunna rush a piece of equipment to go back in servie soo it can fill and open spot in my compartment..

I don't think anyone suggested you do that. Question was asked and answered, and you seem to be taking it a bit personally. I'm on board with #37 and #38, and quite honestly leaving the topic completely would be even better. This is nit picking hen's talk. To each his own. Peace out.

[StOpGoBlUE 11]

im not nit picking im just saying thats my opinon.. how are they going to say ohh you have equipment missing, deduction.. theres a reason for stuff not being there

[16fire5 693]

"18- Current dated inspection tags must be on extinguisher. Two (2) demerits each."

I guess these depts don't actually use extingushers to fight fires with

It isn't so hard to keep them tagged

I guess this would be the case if you never used them. If they are used or at least routinely removed from the apparatus as part of the tool assignment for the interior investigaton team then the tags will not keep.

Is it true that if you put loops/ears in your crosslays you loose points? If so this loosing points for apparatus set up for efficient operations.

[x129K 1,393]

Sigh....I hate this BS.....

I for one...actually LOVE parades...I like to march in them...I like the brotherhood and comeraderie of them..I like putting on my Class A for a reason other than someone who died..I love beer...I love to hear my kids yelling "There's my Daddy!" as they point to me with their freinds...I love the pride associated with being a member of a department who routinely wins trophies...

Parades are good.

Are they a TRUE indicator of a department's fire and emergency mitigation skills? Nope....

Are some of the WJA rules outdated, nonsensical, and somewhat against proper firefighting? Yep...and I hate those rules....but it is what it is.

16Fire5...I don't know if they are "illegal", but most departments prefer "parade lays" for crosslays....and I for one don't like that..it is a pain to pull a "parade lay" off of these monster engines we spec these days...especially with gloves on..

In regards to hair, beards, and peircings...MY department, who is very serious about marching, will not let anyone on the street with facial hair, be it a goatee, fu-man-chu, or even stubble...it's a dry shave at line up or you can sit and watch. Long hair MUST be put up...we are serious about appearance...and yes...we get off of the floor routinely for alarms as well..

It is easy to sit back and say, "why do these departments get 30 guys on the street, but they can't get a peice off of the floor for a fire call?" Well...THOSE departments are the ones you see with 3, 4, or 5 guys on the street at parades. or just a rig with no guys marching....NOT every department has a ton of people who march..not every departmnet has a ton of people period.

Not everyone who marches drinks either ....(I tend too... )....in fact, most departments do not even supply beer before the parade - just water to keep their guys hydrarted...which is a good reason to have friends in other departments...take a stroll, shoot the bull, and steal a beer!

Perhaps hypocritical, I do not agree with taking a truck and a large portion of a membership out of the area for a parade..like Lake George..Nope...don't agree with that one bit..I think a rig should be in a position to be able to respond to an alarm if need be...but then again, do the Judges gig you if the crew has their turnout geat left in the cab????

Like them or not - parades are an important part of the Fire Service's history and romance....

Edited May 18, 2010 by x129K
Profanity removed.

[provfd 49]

Sigh....I hate this

I for one...actually LOVE parades...I like to march in them...I like the brotherhood and comeraderie of them..I like putting on my Class A for a reason other than someone who died..I love beer...I love to hear my kids yelling "There's my Daddy!" as they point to me with their freinds...I love the pride associated with being a member of a department who routinely wins trophies...

Parades are good.

Are they a TRUE indicator of a department's fire and emergency mitigation skills? Nope....

Are some of the WJA rules outdated, nonsensical, and somewhat against proper firefighting? Yep...and I hate those rules....but it is what it is.

16Fire5...I don't know if they are "illegal", but most departments prefer "parade lays" for crosslays....and I for one don't like that..it is a b**** to pull a "parade lay" off of these monster engines we spec these days...especially with gloves on..

In regards to hair, beards, and peircings...MY department, who is very serious about marching, will not let anyone on the street with facial hair, be it a goatee, fu-man-chu, or even stubble...it's a dry shave at line up or you can sit and watch. Long hair MUST be put up...we are serious about appearance...and yes...we get off of the floor routinely for alarms as well..

It is easy to sit back and say, "why do these departments get 30 guys on the street, but they can't get a peice off of the floor for a fire call?" Well...THOSE departments are the ones you see with 3, 4, or 5 guys on the street at parades. or just a rig with no guys marching....NOT every department has a ton of people who march..not every departmnet has a ton of people period.

Not everyone who marches drinks either ....(I tend too... )....in fact, most departments do not even supply beer before the parade - just water to keep their guys hydrarted...which is a good reason to have friends in other departments...take a stroll, shoot the bull, and steal a beer!

Perhaps hypocritical, I do not agree with taking a truck and a large portion of a membership out of the area for a parade..like Lake George..Nope...don't agree with that one bit..I think a rig should be in a position to be able to respond to an alarm if need be...but then again, do the Judges gig you if the crew has their turnout geat left in the cab????

Like them or not - parades are an important part of the Fire Service's history and romance....

I was not going to comment anymore on this, but needed to say I agree 100%. I can almost hear the bag pipes playing. Oh wait, I can, I've got them on Pandora right now. Kind of funny that those who feel "I'm so into fighting fires that I would never consider taking a parade seriously" take quibbling about parades so seriously. Again, to each his own. NOW, I'm out.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Chris192

[helicopper 1,050]

I love to hear my kids yelling "There's my Daddy!" as they point to me with their freinds...

This is the BEST reason for being in a parade!!!

[TL2L31 8]

I must agree they are for the kids

This is the BEST reason for being in a parade!!!

[rescue40 30]

every year this gets under my skin, parades are meant to be fun while showing your trucks and men, trophies are great but whos to say who should win, i have nothing to hide so ill put it out here, im a member of the rescue company in port chester but year after year engines who have a combi tool win best rescue, i thought they were engines? and how do you judge fairly when my rescue responds to more calls in a yr than some rescue's or so called engine rescue's do in 3 or 4 yrs, are truck isnt as clean cause it works harder but were looked down at for that.

[LTNRFD 266]

every year this gets under my skin, parades are meant to be fun while showing your trucks and men, trophies are great but whos to say who should win, i have nothing to hide so ill put it out here, im a member of the rescue company in port chester but year after year engines who have a combi tool win best rescue, i thought they were engines? and how do you judge fairly when my rescue responds to more calls in a yr than some rescue's or so called engine rescue's do in 3 or 4 yrs, are truck isnt as clean cause it works harder but were looked down at for that.

If your rescue was up against Bnechis' rescue, you would win hands down.

[99subi 121]

every year this gets under my skin, parades are meant to be fun while showing your trucks and men, trophies are great but whos to say who should win, i have nothing to hide so ill put it out here, im a member of the rescue company in port chester but year after year engines who have a combi tool win best rescue, i thought they were engines? and how do you judge fairly when my rescue responds to more calls in a yr than some rescue's or so called engine rescue's do in 3 or 4 yrs, are truck isnt as clean cause it works harder but were looked down at for that.

not to be a huge dick, but if this kinda thing bothers you maybe you're in the wrong business.......... fire trucks are made to perform and be the workhorses of public safety, if you want a glitter sparkle truck and a trophy, maybe you should look into car shows.