Mansion Fire in North Stamford

[Guest 786XP]

As a friendly suggestion, If you feel that your not "safe" with "these guys" protecting you, then why do you continue to live there? Move to a place where you can feel that you have protection you are comfortable with. That's what i'd do if I felt as you appear to feel.

While I'm sure that everyone who lives in Stamford would love to have a fully paid department, it all comes down to finding money to pay these fine gentlemen for their services, which means more tax dollars from those who either cannot afford to pay increased taxes or resent having the government dipping into their wallets yet again. Given the current state of the economy, this isn't feasible at this time.

Gamewell:

Nice try, but how bout we try and deal with what actually happened here and not try and offer relocation as a solution.

The City Assistant Fire Chief (a competent one, not like the gem from Long Ridge), has put forth a plan to staff the entire City with using existing personnel. It would replace the existing Long Ridge staff with already funded City positions. In essence, it would eliminate the salary budget of the current Long Ridge staff and provide for a significantly increased on-duty staff in those stations. From 1 on duty in each station to 3.

So before you state that increased taxes and salaries would prevent this from happening, you may want to know that there already is a proposal that does in fact do this and at a cost savings.

Of course, it will be met with fierce opposition, due to the fact that the big, bad City guys would be on their turf.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Can't this story (and most others) be used to drive home points that have much more value to everyone in the fire service? Here are a few that come to mind:

The importance of:

Size up

Resource management

Apparatus placement

Access to the scene

Knowing your first due

That's why I like this forum. I do not like/expect to see replies like Goose's. Plus the officer that turned the resources away was career! haha.

If you look beyond the paid vs. volly debate, there are lessons to be learned. If you listen to the radio transmission you hear him say "...we have adequite manpower" which he probably though, being that it was called in as chimney fire, and they happend to be having drill that night. Long Ridge REQUESTED that the city be sent on automatic mutual aid for alarms and above a long time ago and they haven't recalled them before getting on scene to even an alarm before. They thought this was a routine chimney fire and cancelled both volunteer and career mutual aid.

The lesson that should be learned is: nothing is routine and you never know what you're going to get.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[gamewell45 258]

Gamewell:

Nice try, but how bout we try and deal with what actually happened here and not try and offer relocation as a solution.

The City Assistant Fire Chief (a competent one, not like the gem from Long Ridge), has put forth a plan to staff the entire City with using existing personnel. It would replace the existing Long Ridge staff with already funded City positions. In essence, it would eliminate the salary budget of the current Long Ridge staff and provide for a significantly increased on-duty staff in those stations. From 1 on duty in each station to 3.

So before you state that increased taxes and salaries would prevent this from happening, you may want to know that there already is a proposal that does in fact do this and at a cost savings.

Of course, it will be met with fierce opposition, due to the fact that the big, bad City guys would be on their turf.

How about posting a link to your source so we all can digest what you maintain is the course of action that should be taken?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

There is no reason to necessarily get RID of the volunteers entirely, but they should DEFINITELY be put somewhere within a command structure underneath SFRD, not with independent fiefdoms. The problem is that this Ass-Istant Chief is barely accountable to anyone, particularly not the city government who would be able to get rid of someone within SFRD who made such a knuckleheaded decision.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Guys and gals, To simply put it before we get into a whole debate............

CHECK THE EGOS AT THE DOOR AND USE YOUR HEADS!!!!!!!!

Its that simple. A big mistake was made, a gun was jumped, a house was lost. It is not the first time or the last time any department / officer has done this. It will happen again, this time it happened in a town where there is a lot of media coverage going on about an existing problem.

That's all I have to say.

[dragonrescue 28]

Is someone going to have to die before anything is done about this? What if there were people hanging out of the windows or trapped inside when they arrived? This guy is a clown and should be removed from his position. I live in North Stamford and I most certainly don't feel safe with these guys "protecting" me. They should just be disbanded. A city the size of Stamford should have a fully staffed professional career department.

I've been on the job in Stamford for 15 years. The union and staff have been trying to make the City of Stamford a fully staffed professional career department for many years before I arrived. Even if someone dies it wouldn't make a difference. Nobody gets it! It's a very sad state of affairs..........

[dragonrescue 28]

As a friendly suggestion, If you feel that your not "safe" with "these guys" protecting you, then why do you continue to live there? Move to a place where you can feel that you have protection you are comfortable with. That's what i'd do if I felt as you appear to feel.

While I'm sure that everyone who lives in Stamford would love to have a fully paid department, it all comes down to finding money to pay these fine gentlemen for their services, which means more tax dollars from those who either cannot afford to pay increased taxes or resent having the government dipping into their wallets yet again. Given the current state of the economy, this isn't feasible at this time.

So you would rather have your house burn down and/or someone die to save money? The volunteer system DOES NOT work in the City of Stamford anymore! It may have worked when it was a small town(s), but now it's a BIG CITY! Time to move on........

[dragonrescue 28]

That's why I like this forum. I do not like/expect to see replies like Goose's. Plus the officer that turned the resources away was career! haha.

If you look beyond the paid vs. volly debate, there are lessons to be learned. If you listen to the radio transmission you hear him say "...we have adequite manpower" which he probably though, being that it was called in as chimney fire, and they happend to be having drill that night. Long Ridge REQUESTED that the city be sent on automatic mutual aid for alarms and above a long time ago and they haven't recalled them before getting on scene to even an alarm before. They thought this was a routine chimney fire and cancelled both volunteer and career mutual aid.

The lesson that should be learned is: nothing is routine and you never know what you're going to get.

Thought? Do you know what happened to "I THOUGHT"?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

That's why I like this forum. I do not like/expect to see replies like Goose's. Plus the officer that turned the resources away was career! haha.

If you look beyond the paid vs. volly debate, there are lessons to be learned. If you listen to the radio transmission you hear him say "...we have adequite manpower" which he probably though, being that it was called in as chimney fire, and they happend to be having drill that night. Long Ridge REQUESTED that the city be sent on automatic mutual aid for alarms and above a long time ago and they haven't recalled them before getting on scene to even an alarm before. They thought this was a routine chimney fire and cancelled both volunteer and career mutual aid.

The lesson that should be learned is: nothing is routine and you never know what you're going to get.

Agreed....what may work 99 times may not work the 100th time. Sounds like this is a common pratice, "lets beat the city in, cancel them before they come into our turf" probably goes on all the time, this time it came back to bite them in the a&&. I dont know what type of apparatus and manpower were on the road, but if you had 3 Engines/tankers and 1 Ladder responding that would be a good first alarm assignment for a chimney fire in most places....BUT if you always had the luxery of having additional units coming in, at no cost to you or your dept., like the city units, to supplement your own first alarm, I would never cancel them. BUT again thats just me.

Ihave said this before...the 5 Volunteer companies have to get together and combine forces, and this includes the city response, before someone else comes in and dictates how its going to be. This may be the straw that breaks the Volunteer companies.

Edited May 14, 2010 by spin_the_wheel

[spin_the_wheel 460]

So you would rather have your house burn down and/or someone die to save money? The volunteer system DOES NOT work in the City of Stamford anymore! It may have worked when it was a small town(s), but now it's a BIG CITY! Time to move on........

5 individual volunteer companies may not work...but 1 unified volunteer system for certain areas with the city coming in on extra alarms to certain fires and workers should work. The problem sounds like the scattered resources of the volunteer companies in the area.

[mstrang1 213]

3 Engines and 1 truck may be good for a chimney fire, but they had 2 engines and a tanker. Only 1 engine and the tanker made it in the driveway. That engine had a roof ladder and a 24' extension ladder. That 24' ladder MIGHT have reached the roof, but not the one where the chimney was. An aerial never made it in the driveway. At one point, LRFCo personnel were using the homeowners ladder, which was not tall enough to reach the chimney, but tall enough to reach the second floor once the entire roof burned off.

You talk about 1 unified volunteer fire service in Stamford? HA! LRFCo guys only like Springdale, nobody else likes Springdale, nobody likes Glenbrook because they went with the city plan, TOR is suing the city, so the city does not like them, LRFCo sued the city years ago, so nobody likes them, Belltown is actually making it out on calls as an all volunteer department, which creates jealousy, etc. After this fire, I do not think TOR will like LRFCo very much. There are too many egos in the way for 1 volunteer department to exist. They all want to keep their own identity and fiefdom.

[gamewell45 258]

So you would rather have your house burn down and/or someone die to save money? The volunteer system DOES NOT work in the City of Stamford anymore! It may have worked when it was a small town(s), but now it's a BIG CITY! Time to move on........

Hello???? Did anyone in here suggest what you have stated? I think not. If you take the time and go back and read the original poster that i responded with you will find that he was concerned about his safety and I responded in kind to him with a suggestion.

Whether or not the volunteer system works or does not work was not relevant to the question I responded to. Please go back and re-read the post until you have a better understanding about what the response was.

[dragonrescue 28]

As a friendly suggestion, If you feel that your not "safe" with "these guys" protecting you, then why do you continue to live there? Move to a place where you can feel that you have protection you are comfortable with. That's what i'd do if I felt as you appear to feel.

While I'm sure that everyone who lives in Stamford would love to have a fully paid department, it all comes down to finding money to pay these fine gentlemen for their services, which means more tax dollars from those who either cannot afford to pay increased taxes or resent having the government dipping into their wallets yet again. Given the current state of the economy, this isn't feasible at this time.

Read the second part of your post above and get a clue.............

[Remember585 815]

Help me out here.

Who are 7-1, 7-12, 7-15, 6-7, etc?

"We have enough manpower" - really? You know this on your way and before you're on the scene? That's a gamble I will never take!

[CTFF 65]

Help me out here.

Who are 7-1, 7-12, 7-15, 6-7, etc?

"We have enough manpower" - really? You know this on your way and before you're on the scene? That's a gamble I will never take!

71 is an engine from lrfco

712 is the Asst Cheif

715 is the 2nd lt

67 is the truck from turn of river

[Alpinerunner 61]

I'm sorry this has de-evolved from the original topic. But with the remarks being made, I have to comment and beat the horse.

Everyone here needs to note and think about the difference between a combination department and volunteer department. Dragon, of course Stamford has grown too large for a volunteer system. North Stamford hasn't been a volunteer system since 1946 and no one is recommending it go back to that. It is currently a combination system which, in my opinion is undoubtedly the most efficient system to have.

When the S hits the fan, like maybe 1 fire downtown and 1 fire in northern Stamford, SFRD can't handle it. Fire uptown and an MVA on the 95? Nope, because the rescue needs to be in two places at once. When this fire happened it took all of Turn of River's career manpower, and a downtown engine, rescue, and ladder. Turn of River filled in with the ONLY other heavy rescue in the city, and another engine. When a huge storm hit, no one could argue that the volunteer departments ran the majority of the calls. Do you really propose to get rid of that?

786XPCover mentioned that a SFRD Asst. Chief proposed the entire city could be covered with the resouces SFRD currently has. Did they mention that that plan involved removing a ladder and engine from downtown? Will the people downtown be happy with that? Probably not. You can't be overstaffed and understaffed at the same time.

Combination departments just makes sense. You aren't wasting manpower/$$ for routine business, and you get extra (free) manpower when you need it. Stamford couldn't afford to have the manpower required for 2 fires, a storm, a fire and an MVA, etc waiting around 24/7. But you can have your cake and eat it too with a combination system.

How that system is structured is what's up for debate. Whether the vollies should exist is not up for debate. The fact that an officer made a bad judgement call is not justification for disbanding the volunteer system.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[dragonrescue 28]

I'm sorry this has de-evolved from the original topic. But with the remarks being made, I have to comment and beat the horse.

Everyone here needs to note and think about the difference between a combination department and volunteer department. Dragon, of course Stamford has grown too large for a volunteer system. North Stamford hasn't been a volunteer system since 1946 and no one is recommending it go back to that. It is currently a combination system which, in my opinion is undoubtedly the most efficient system to have.

When the S hits the fan, like maybe 1 fire downtown and 1 fire in northern Stamford, SFRD can't handle it. Fire uptown and an MVA on the 95? Nope, because the rescue needs to be in two places at once. When this fire happened it took all of Turn of River's career manpower, and a downtown engine, rescue, and ladder. Turn of River filled in with the ONLY other heavy rescue in the city, and another engine. When a huge storm hit, no one could argue that the volunteer departments ran the majority of the calls. Do you really propose to get rid of that?

786XPCover mentioned that a SFRD Asst. Chief proposed the entire city could be covered with the resouces SFRD currently has. Did they mention that that plan involved removing a ladder and engine from downtown? Will the people downtown be happy with that? Probably not. You can't be overstaffed and understaffed at the same time.

Combination departments just makes sense. You aren't wasting manpower/$$ for routine business, and you get extra (free) manpower when you need it. Stamford couldn't afford to have the manpower required for 2 fires, a storm, a fire and an MVA, etc waiting around 24/7. But you can have your cake and eat it too with a combination system.

How that system is structured is what's up for debate. Whether the vollies should exist is not up for debate. The fact that an officer made a bad judgement call is not justification for disbanding the volunteer system.

I totally disagree with your combination statement. Showing up with 1 man on a rig and no idea of how many properly trained vollies with it, does not make sense. When is responding to a call ever routine business? "We'll just send 1 man to investigate and if it turns into something, we'll ask for help" is ridiculous (too late, house burns to the ground and people die). When the vollies in Stamford can guarantee a fully manned response with qualified trained personnel, then maybe I would change my opinion about a combination dept. in Stamford. It's a roll of the dice with what you're going to get when a call comes in North Stamford. I would be more comfortable with covering the entire city with the present SFRD then depending on the volunteer system that is at hand. Sorry, but the present volunteer system in North Stamford needs to be disbanded...................It's an accident waiting to happen..........I pray to God every day that it doesn't involve a LODD or civilian fatality. It's like sitting on a powder keg.....BOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!

[FD828 77]

This comes down to one thing.... If all the other volunteer departments went with the city's initial plan like Glenbrook did, what would have happened? They would all have fully staffed machines 24/7, the Chief of that department would still be in charge of calls in his/her district, they would have their funding (not the $20K/station that they currently get), the volunteer firefighters could still respond to any and all calls they wanted to, volunteer firefighters could train side by side with the paid personnel stationed in the volunteer houses and or downtown with the rest of the career guys/gals at the training center, they could have a unified response/automatic mutual aid for all or certain calls, a gauranteed response from each department 24/7, and this whole mess would be a thing of the past. Tell me where the down side is for the volunteer departments???

[Alpinerunner 61]

Absolutely. 1 man on a rig is not a good idea. I don't think ANYONE in Stamford thinks it's a good idea. But there are a wide range of solutions between that and disbanding the volunteer departments. In their defense, they have been requesting more paid staff for many many years. I believe the volunteer departments are looking for 3 career staff per rig.

[CTFF 65]

Alpine if Long Ridge had 3 men per rig do you think we would see better decision making from them?

[dragonrescue 28]

Absolutely. 1 man on a rig is not a good idea. I don't think ANYONE in Stamford thinks it's a good idea. But there are a wide range of solutions between that and disbanding the volunteer departments. In their defense, they have been requesting more paid staff for many many years. I believe the volunteer departments are looking for 3 career staff per rig.

In their defense? They are asking for manpower under their own separate "Kingdom" conditions. That's BS!

I can't entertain this anymore. I'm done with this thread......

[Remember585 815]

71 is an engine from lrfco

712 is the Asst Cheif

715 is the 2nd lt

67 is the truck from turn of river

So to be clear, the AC from Long Ridge (712) returned TOR's Truck (67) as well as the 2 & 1 (E8. E9, T3) from City? And they had two Engines (71, 73) of their own responding? I apologize for sounding dumb, but before I voice any kind of an opinion I just want to make sure this is correct. Thank you, CTFF.

[CTFF 65]

So to be clear, the AC from Long Ridge (712) returned TOR's Truck (67) as well as the 2 & 1 (E8. E9, T3) from City? And they had two Engines (71, 73) of their own responding? I apologize for sounding dumb, but before I voice any kind of an opinion I just want to make sure this is correct. Thank you, CTFF.

67 (the TOR truck) cancels Truck 3 from the city.

712 then cancels everyone but the Long Ridge units.

Also keep in mind 78 (tanker) from long ridge signs on and the Chief of Long Ridge was in 78.

[Remember585 815]

67 (the TOR truck) cancels Truck 3 from the city.

712 then cancels everyone but the Long Ridge units.

Also keep in mind 78 (tanker) from long ridge signs on and the Chief of Long Ridge was in 78.

So the TOR Truck responding automatically cancels City's Truck, then the AC from LR cancelled that?

[x152 179]

So to be clear, the AC from Long Ridge (712) returned TOR's Truck (67) as well as the 2 & 1 (E8. E9, T3) from City? And they had two Engines (71, 73) of their own responding? I apologize for sounding dumb, but before I voice any kind of an opinion I just want to make sure this is correct. Thank you, CTFF.

Yes 585, the Long Ridge Assistant Fire Chief (Unit 7-12), cancelled the following units: City Engine 8 (3 personnel), City Engine 9 (3 personnel), City Truck 3 (4 personnel), City Deputy Chief and Aide (2 personnel). In addition, the Turn of River Fire Department had their Truck 67 (with at least 4 on board) and Engine 62 (with at least 4 on board). City Engines 8 and 9 were actually at Turn of River Station 1 for a drill and all Turn of River and City Engines responded on the initial alarm as a joint group.

So to make it clear, the cowboy Assistant Chief cancelled paid and volunteer Fire Fighters responding to assist his department on the initial alarm.

Long Ridge has attempted to explain this as that they only wanted to cancel the City (worthy of additional questioning on that line), but the Dispatcher could not have done a better job of making certain of their request and the Long Ridge Chief could not have been more concise in clearly stating that he only wanted to have Long Ridge respond.

So, let the excuses begin.........

PS - Alpine Runner: A point of concern: Doesn't the City already have 3 and 4 person staffed Companies in 3 of the 5 volunteer Districts? When the volunteers say they want 3 people on their rigs, aren't they really just saying "don't come here if you have a Stamford Fire Rescue patch on your sleeve..." If that is the position, I am pretty offended at that prejudice, as I worked hard to get where I am and have quite a bit of pride and respect for the Men and Women I work with. I would be troubled if that is truly their position. Hopefully, you can help me out on that one.

Thanks-

Edited May 14, 2010 by x152

[Remember585 815]

Thanks for the reply, Captain.

Now that I get a better picture of this incident, I can honestly say that canceling units before anyone is on the scene is insane. I have responded to, dispatched and listened to departments go to AFAs, chimney fires, inside odor calls and they've turned out to be legit structure fires. Any FD that thinks a chimney fire is "nothing" or they can handle it with only one or two companies better be careful. A possible chimney fire back in December destroyed a house in neighboring Montrose. At no point did anyone call back to say the house was on fire. This info, although helpful, doesn't always happen so we can't assume anything, ever.

A possible chimney fire should be treated as a structure fire until such time you have units on the scene and they can verify what they have and where it is going. You know, basic size up stuff. It's hard to do this while still responding!

As for the pissing contest in this specific case - that department's leaders (Chief, council, whatever) should address what happened and do so quickly. Just listening to the tone of the AC's voice I can get a feel for what the point was that he was making. I've heard other FDs take this risk many times, and it's unprofessional, immature and downright embarrassing for that department. If any of you are like me, you take great pride in your organization. Anytime someone says something or does something dumb, you want to bury your head in the sand. (I know I've done this enough times to make a beach look like the surface of the moon!) The point is, you have to address things like this and correct these actions so it never, EVER happens again. This was a poor call on the part of this Assistant Chief, I would imagine he is kicking himself in the a** for it, as he should.

Thank God nobody was hurt or killed.

Knowing how today's society is, my money says that this department, maybe even this Assistant Chief, will be footing the bill for the damages done.

If there is a manpower issue, or a king of the sandbox problem in this area, then whomever makes the major decisions here might have to take actions that will, unfortunately, make some people upset for the greater good of that fire district. Doing what is best for your customers is far more important then keeping your pride. Swallow it, so you can take a bite out of the bigger problem.

[Alpinerunner 61]

In their defense? They are asking for manpower under their own separate "Kingdom" conditions. That's BS!

I can't entertain this anymore. I'm done with this thread......

What do you mean by Kingdom? Is that derogatory term for department/district?

[gamewell45 258]

Read the second part of your post above and get a clue.............

Obviously your interpreting it differently then I am by putting your own spin on it.

[gamewell45 258]

In their defense? They are asking for manpower under their own separate "Kingdom" conditions. That's BS!

I can't entertain this anymore. I'm done with this thread......

Good decision on your part!

[Alpinerunner 61]

PS - Alpine Runner: A point of concern: Doesn't the City already have 3 and 4 person staffed Companies in 3 of the 5 volunteer Districts? When the volunteers say they want 3 people on their rigs, aren't they really just saying "don't come here if you have a Stamford Fire Rescue patch on your sleeve..." If that is the position, I am pretty offended at that prejudice, as I worked hard to get where I am and have quite a bit of pride and respect for the Men and Women I work with. I would be troubled if that is truly their position. Hopefully, you can help me out on that one.

Thanks-

You are correct. Operationally, the patch doesn't make much of a difference. Having experienced, career personell around 24/7 to work with the volunteers is what they want, and what happens in the end, regardeless of the patch. Unfortunately there are many nuances that make it more difficult for the volunteers to work closely with someone with a SFRD patch, mostly related to union regulations. Again, the problems have nothing to do with the individual members, and mostly to do with the union. I hope that is the response you were looking for.