KME-Like or Dislike? (Why?)

[Hooks057 0]

I thought some of you guys might find this interesting that follow apparatus.

If your department is looking at a KME, you better take a closer look!!

Res20cue had made mention earlier in November that Somers is looking at KME for an engine.

I have also heard rumors that Somers Tanker has been out of service for long periods of time also.

You ALWAYS get what you pay for in a rig.

In my opinion Seagrave is the superior Fire Apparatus Manufacture in the country. No other manufacture can compare.

(RI) City Sues Fire Truck Manufacturer

East Providence Claims Defects Plague New Equipment

5:35 PM EST January 7, 2004

http://www.turnto10.com/news/2748279/detail.html

EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- The city of East Providence is suing the

builder of its five new fire trucks.

The city says the trucks, which cost $2.5 million, were out of service for

224 days between September 2002 and August 2003. Officials said the

fire trucks had electrical problems, generator problems, pump problems

and fuel leaks.

The city is suing the manufacturer, KME, of Pennsylvania, for new

equipment and monetary damages.

Acting City Manager William Conley Jr. told News Channel 10 that more

than once, more than one truck has been out of service, which puts a

strain on the Fire Department's resources and puts public safety at risk.

But Conley said there have been no specific incidents where safety

was compromised.

The firefighters' union, which opposed the purchase of the trucks last year,

did not want to comment on the problems, but it supports what the city

administration is doing.

"They're very sensitive to the needs of the city residents and firefighters'

safety in doing our job," union President Oscar Elmasian said.

KME's attorney told News Channel 10 the company has been addressing

the problems with the fire trucks, but he said he would not comment

any further until he sees the lawsuit.

[RES20CUE 40]

Not true on the Tanker. To this point, we are happy with the Tanker, and it was only out of service for a faulty dump valve solenoid.

I can honestly say that the KME tanker has been in service more days in it's first year of service than the Seagrave's were.

Our 2- 2001 Seagrave's were plagued with problems, that to this day still have not been corrected by Seagrave. The right front tire on both of them rub against the front suction piping- how does this happen?? Now the paint is peeling off of both bodies. True you get what you pay for, or should! We paid $350,000.00 each for those pumpers, and we definitly are not getting what we paid for!!

As for "looking at KME" for our new pumper, we didn't look at anybody specifically. However, the bids were opened last night and KME came in about $35, 000.00 less than Seagrave and Pierce. It's very hard to justify not going with the lowest bid, with that much of a variance, especially when your dealing with tax payers money. As far as I know, Yorktown and Mohegan are both happy with thier KME's.

[msm232 69]

Res20cue, in several posts you talk about problems that have never been resolved with the 2 Seagrave Engines. Those engines are 2 years Old now? If the fire District had all of these problems with this apparatus, Why did they pay for them? Who accepted 3/4 million dollars worth of apparatus with out doing a inspection? What are the exact problems and do they relate to the manufacturer or the Dealer? Why has the district not used their legal counsel to try get satisfaction? I was recently talking to a member of a department in NJ where every time they used their tower ladder in rain, the control electronics would short out. The manufacturer took awhile but flew a team in and completely installed all new electronics and all it took was one letter from the departments counsel. What about the warranties? So if you could, you should be more specific about whose problems they exactly are Seagrave, Detroit Diesel, Allison, Hale etc? Does your department have its own mechanic? Things are not always as they appear to seem. Plenty of departments have Seagrave fire apparatus in westchester and I have never heard those kind of complaints. Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to defend only to educate.....

Keep your head down and stay safe

[x635 4,066]

I found this while perusing the Excellance Ambulance website:

You expect excellence of your emergency support personnel…

…you should also expect it of your emergency vehicles!  

Reasons to Buy Excellance  

As with any high quality product, you should expect to pay a little more for an Excellance unit. But paying more for an Excellance unit today will return dividends year after year - saving a substantial amount of money in the coming years!  

How?  

Quality workmanship, reliability, and dependability = (a) a product with much lower maintenance and repairs, and ( a product that outlasts the chassis. In addition to lower operating costs (saving money every year), remounting the unit onto a new chassis will save substantial funds in the future.  

Avoid down-time; avoid expensive and ongoing maintenance and repairs; and avoid all the high costs associated with owning an inferior product. Then enjoy a financial windfall when the chassis is worn out by remounting your Excellance box onto a new chassis - instead of having to purchase a new unit!  

The choices are simple: Buy "low bid" ...and keep paying for it year after year. Or buy the most reliable and durable vehicle that will "pay for itself" many time over!  

"It is unwise to pay too much. But it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought is incapable of doing what it is suppose to do.  

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And when you do that, you have enough to pay for something better.  

There is hardly anything in the world that someone can't make a little worse and sell a little cheaper - and people who consider price alone are this man's lawful prey."  

http://www.excellance.com

[RES20CUE 40]

To answer MSM's questions-

The vehicles were inspected, tested and both had a long list of problems. Seagrave's dealer (not to mention names, but it's located in Mamaroneck) fixed several of the problems.

There was an auxiliary suction valve installed backwards, OK- I'll admit, the pump testing did not include testing the function of the auxiliary suctions- How could this $350,000 pumper leave the factory with a valve backwards? How could it get past the dealer with it backwards?

Anyway, we found it backwards the hard way and blew a pump on a Mini-Attack. Seagrave made good on this, fixed the valve, and replaced the pump on the Mini-Attack.

As far as all the other problems, yes it's 2 years and they're still not fixed! They are still not scratched off the list made in March 2001! As stated now the paint is peeling off both of them, and a rep from Seagrave will not return our calls.

As far as your statements about "counsel" that may be the way to go at this point, but I'm not a Commissioner, and the pumpers are owned by the district, but I'll mention it to them.

My feeling is that if you pay that much for an emergency vehicle, they should be there to take care of the problems immediately. I didn't care for the Salesman from KME, but they sure took care of the "hit list" right away upon receiving Tanker 16. We'll just have to see.

[chris498 31]

But about the tires rubbing against the front intake..... ummm wouldn't that render the trucks un road worthy? How then are they still in service.... it seems that would constitute a major safety issue........ I'm sorry rescue 20... I don't mean to be critical really, just too trying to better understand the problem :roll:

[msm232 69]

I would like to better understand the problems that exist and how the other members including chief's and commissioners know these problems exist and yet rigs have not been pulled of the streets or have they? If NOT....Now the liability is on the fire Dept and the chief's and not seagrave and the dealer. You have in the past talked about a commercial rescue-pumper the district bought and if I am not mistaken, this too had lots of problems, were those ever taken care of by the dealer or manufacturer?.....see where i going with this....There is no perfect rig, we would like to think there is but there is not.....These are pieces of machenery, some are built on friday and mondays but it is up to the FD to make sure that it lives up to your FD's expectations. I can also say that sometimes, the dealer may not even know these situations exist!!! All manufactuerers screwup, and *&@^ up! Some times the dealer can fix it easy and sometimes not.....but if the information is not getting to the right people, then shame on the FD. I know of at least 2 departments with paint issues and you know what both have been solved.... so in my opinion, i would get a list together and let the powers to be know that there are problems with these rigs that should be fixed ASAP. Again, not trying to defend only trying to understand so history does not repeat.

Keep you head down and stay safe.

[RES20CUE 40]

There are no safety concerns, to "pull them from the streets". The tires rub slightly when the rig is turned all the way to the right. It does not interfere with driving, or handling. I agree with you, that this has gone on way to long.

As I said with the Tanker, a tickler list of problems was drawn up right away, prior to acceptance, and KME immediately fixed all the problems.

We did the same with the Seagrave's, but it was felt that these issues were not big enough, not to accept them, especially when we despirately needed the vehicles. My point is that Seagrave did not immediately take care of the problems, and they have both been returned to the dealer several times, and some of the probems still exist.

It is easy to "armchair" quarterback, but be "pulling them off the streets" does not solve any problems. It only reduces the firefighting stregnth of the town. Which is not easy to do with over 1400 runs!

As for the Rescue-Pumper, the problems with that vehicle were addressed and corrected by Pierce. That vehicle was "pulled from the road" several times, before the corrections were made.

[1075thebox 1]

It's all about the spec, as a sales rep informed us at a recent meeting.

If your specs state even the smallest details, like "when wheels are turned to their turning capacity, they shall not be hindered by any other components of the apparatus," then this should be adhered too.

If you do not spec out every single detail, you leave yourself open for imperfections. Sadly, the way the industry, actually, every industry operates isn't as good as it should be. KME can build a good rig (Mohegan, West Harrison, etc.) or bad (Fairview, etc.) just like Seagrave can. Personally, if I want a rig built to my desire, I will make sure all possible items myself and the commitee can come up with will be in the specs.

And on another note, Somers tends to buy and design apparatus that they don't like, wait until they have them, then point the fingers at someone else. I don't blame res20cue, because I know he knows his stuff, plus he is in one of those "jams" - where he has to deal with commissioners who should let the Chiefs do their jobs!