Mutual Aid Question

[Guest]

Listening to a fire today in Westchester, I couldn't help but notice that Mutual Aid apparatus were getting on the scene before the "host department." I hear this a lot in other parts of Northern Westchester too. Is there automatic aid set up or are some departments struggling to get their rigs out?

I also heard the FAST for this fire paging out two or three times. Is this normal, and should it be acceptable? When should someone speak up and ask for someone else or should a department get on the radio and say they can't handle the request?

Thanks and a Good job to those at that fire today. Glad to see everyone made it home safe.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

There are many locations in various districts across Westchester that are quite large distances from the home districts station and actually closer to a station in another district.

As was discussed here some time ago, for example, there are parts of the Yorktown Fire District served by apparatus from stations in Yorktown that are within 1/4 mile I believe of Millwoods station.

Edited April 14, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[FDVA356 23]

I believe your probably talking about the Montrose fire today. Montrose E 122 was actually on scene first, within minutes after dispatched and started a agressive interior attack and sizing up the situation. Montrose VAFD E 225 was minutes after, due to the timely request of the MPO of E122 who has the knowledge of what resources are available. I have to say all involved did a hell of a job and worked excellent together!!! Great job!!!

[JFLYNN 681]

I believe your probably talking about the Montrose fire today. Montrose E 122 was actually on scene first, within minutes after dispatched and started a agressive interior attack and sizing up the situation. Montrose VAFD E 225 was minutes after, due to the timely request of the MPO of E122 who has the knowledge of what resources are available. I have to say all involved did a hell of a job and worked excellent together!!! Great job!!!

Where is the first due engine located in relation to the fire?

You mentioned "agressive interior attack"...how would you define that?

What is a retone and why was it necessary?

Thanks

[Remember585 815]

Where is the first due engine located in relation to the fire?

In the case of Montrose today, it's two doors down.

You mentioned "agressive interior attack"...how would you define that?

Wasn't there early on so I can't comment. My guess is that it means handlines went in and knocked the fire down with minimal extension, something many consider an agressive push or aggressive interior attack.

What is a retone and why was it necessary?

A "re-tone" means a couple of things. It could be to update units, to call for more manpower or at the request of an agency or IC when members report a lack of pager activations. In this case, I did hear Peekskill "re-tone" to inform their FAST members which station to report to. I also heard Montrose have a "re-tone" to confirm the fire. I may of missed something else, but that's all I can say I know for fact, Chief.

[Remember585 815]

Montrose VAFD E225 was minutes after, due to the timely request of the MPO of E122 who has the knowledge of what resources are available.

He better! He was our last Deputy Commissioner (County Car 2)!!! LOL.

[PEMO3 523]

A "re-tone" means a couple of things. It could be to update units, to call for more manpower or at the request of an agency or IC when members report a lack of pager activations. In this case, I did hear Peekskill "re-tone" to inform their FAST members which station to report to. I also heard Montrose have a "re-tone" to confirm the fire. I may of missed something else, but that's all I can say I know for fact, Chief.

Chief, one question that maybe you can answer. Is there a reason why 60 Control does not do an automatic "re-tone" on a confirmed structure fire (10-75). If for nothing else but to wake up member who possibly are at work and not ready to up and leave for an unfounded job especially with the "automatic alarm" calls. I realize a lot of these practices are left to individual depts to do similar to automatic additional alarm assignments. I know FDNY even does a tone and announces a working fire on the borough and citywide channel. IMO it is a good practice as a notifier and wake up call.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chief, one question that maybe you can answer. Is there a reason why 60 Control does not do an automatic "re-tone" on a confirmed structure fire (10-75). If for nothing else but to wake up member who possibly are at work and not ready to up and leave for an unfounded job especially with the "automatic alarm" calls. I realize a lot of these practices are left to individual depts to do similar to automatic additional alarm assignments. I know FDNY even does a tone and announces a working fire on the borough and citywide channel. IMO it is a good practice as a notifier and wake up call.

I can partially answer that...individual departments set up their dispatching policies for the most part as long as its within reason and common sense. If the department didn't request that happen it is not going to happen. I can say that 60 control is very good at echoing key pieces of information when transmitted..such as "Ladder XX is on scene reporting working fire" or whatever. If someone is at work don't know why they would needed to be woken up...or unless your talking about members who decided it wasn't worth their time to get out of bed on the first dispatch because it didn't sound good enough.

[helicopper 1,050]

I can partially answer that...individual departments set up their dispatching policies for the most part as long as its within reason and common sense. If the department didn't request that happen it is not going to happen. I can say that 60 control is very good at echoing key pieces of information when transmitted..such as "Ladder XX is on scene reporting working fire" or whatever. If someone is at work don't know why they would needed to be woken up...or unless your talking about members who decided it wasn't worth their time to get out of bed on the first dispatch because it didn't sound good enough.

Ding Ding Ding... Here's a good one, we can't even standardize dispatch procedures for consistent and standard communications in the County. Is it any wonder things are so screwed up?

[PEMO3 523]

Ding Ding Ding... Here's a good one, we can't even standardize dispatch procedures for consistent and standard communications in the County. Is it any wonder things are so screwed up?

Chris, that is basically were I was going. Something is wrong when even how to dispatch a job can become my sandbox, my toys, my rules. My way of thinking is that more information is always better, re-tone and let a department know that they have a working fire. If a retone brings out 5 or 6 members that may have blew off the first page then that is 5 or 6 more hands on the scene. Lets face it manpower is a big issue everywhere and volunteers are human, they may not jump up from the dinner table or leave work on the initial call because it sounded like a "nothing" job but they may drop everything and run for a "confirmed" job. I have seen the posts here questioning the re-tones for manpower but lets face if it gets the message out it was well worth it. Does not mean there is not a decent first response but back up personnel is always an advantage. In a perfect world everyone would drop everything and run for every job, but its far from a perfect world. Just my 2 cents.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Ding Ding Ding... Here's a good one, we can't even standardize dispatch procedures for consistent and standard communications in the County. Is it any wonder things are so screwed up?

It is all based around that wonderful little term NY loves in the municipal service of "Authority having Jurisdiction." Just because we all have the county dispatch available, doesnt mean that they set the rules as to how, who and what gets tones and when they get tones (correct me if I'm wrong Remember 585) and even if they want to use the county dispatch.

Each fire district is solely responsible for the safety and livelihood of its tax paying members. What they decided was best for their district when it comes to radio transmissions, frequencies and all that other fun stuff, is the last line. When the poop hits the fan and someone needs to be held accountable for something, it falls on the commissioners and the chief of said department, not the department who dispatched the call, or is on automatic mutual aid agreements.

[JohnnyOV 2]

If a retone brings out 5 or 6 members that may have blew off the first page then that is 5 or 6 more hands on the scene.

If they are blowing off the first page, then they are in the wrong business and have no worth to me on the fire scene. Its that attitude, "its a bs call thats a waste of my time," that causes a rift in the service between members of the department, members of surrounding departments, and paid and volunteer members. I can just hear paid guys snickering at that comment PEMO3(this is not turning into a paid bs volly debate).

Either show up on the first call, or leave your sorry a** on the couch at home because I don't want you there.

[PEMO3 523]

If they are blowing off the first page, then they are in the wrong business and have no worth to me on the fire scene. Its that attitude, "its a bs call thats a waste of my time," that causes a rift in the service between members of the department, members of surrounding departments, and paid and volunteer members. I can just hear paid guys snickering at that comment PEMO3(this is not turning into a paid bs volly debate).

Either show up on the first call, or leave your sorry a** on the couch at home because I don't want you there.

Boy, sorry if my post got your panties in a bunch but lets face facts manpower is a big issue and my point was to explore a solution to the problem. Should everyone run on everything everytime: sure. Does it happen: no. The point is there are two approaches: 1- Bury your head in the sand an make believe a problem does not exist or 2 - try and be proactive and do something about it. Sure home rule exists but that does not mean some standardization can not exist.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Boy, sorry if my post got your panties in a bunch but lets face facts manpower is a big issue and my point was to explore a solution to the problem. Should everyone run on everything everytime: sure. Does it happen: no. The point is there are two approaches: 1- Bury your head in the sand an make believe a problem does not exist or 2 - try and be proactive and do something about it. Sure home rule exists but that does not mean some standardization can not exist.

I had a terrible golf game last night and was a little POed to begin with, so I apologize as coming off a little to rash to you.

All I am saying is that if you acknowledge that this occurs and no one steps up to said members of the department that pull that crap, which is what it is in a lot nicer terms, then how is a problem getting fixed? All you are doing is validating there wrong actions without any consequences. If you, I and everyone else agrees its wrong, and no one tells the repeated offenders they are wrong, but say hey, look we do have plenty of members here now, but its 20min, 30min an hour into an operation, that is a problem in and of itself. You/your officers and anyone else who feels that way are only justifying their wrongdoing to make the moral feel better.

People who don't come on the first call out, obviously don' want to be there to begin with, are the guys who have had years in the volly department and think that "nothings changed or evolved from 10 years ago so there is no need for me to show up unless its a good job", haven't shown up to a drill in months or years yet still want to do something. These are the people who will be getting hurt, hurting others, or worse at a fire scene, hence why I have no use for them.

You might be old and crusty, but hell, show up more and teach the younger guys how its done the right way and set a good example.

[x129K 1,393]

People who don't come on the first call out, obviously don' want to be there to begin with, are the guys who have had years in the volly department and think that "nothings changed or evolved from 10 years ago so there is no need for me to show up unless its a good job", haven't shown up to a drill in months or years yet still want to do something. These are the people who will be getting hurt, hurting others, or worse at a fire scene, hence why I have no use for them.

You might be old and crusty, but hell, show up more and teach the younger guys how its done the right way and set a good example.

Let me play devil's advocate so to speak, or at least show my situation....

Let's say, it is a typical weekday and I am either off, or on night tour...which means I am home during the day with my two year old daughter...my wife is at work, and my son is at school..

My department gets dispatched for "smoke in a building"......I am NOT taking my daughter to a fire call...not a possibility.

Now let's say a unit gets on scene and reports a working fire...NOW I'm gonna call my wife and see if I can drop my daughter off so I can go to the fire...

Perfect system? Hell no....but does it get a "interior firefighter" to the scene? Yep.......eventually...

[helicopper 1,050]

It is all based around that wonderful little term NY loves in the municipal service of "Authority having Jurisdiction." Just because we all have the county dispatch available, doesnt mean that they set the rules as to how, who and what gets tones and when they get tones (correct me if I'm wrong Remember 585) and even if they want to use the county dispatch.

Each fire district is solely responsible for the safety and livelihood of its tax paying members. What they decided was best for their district when it comes to radio transmissions, frequencies and all that other fun stuff, is the last line. When the poop hits the fan and someone needs to be held accountable for something, it falls on the commissioners and the chief of said department, not the department who dispatched the call, or is on automatic mutual aid agreements.

Hmmm... Let's see, we can have 59 different people doing 59 different things or we can have some standardization so things are more efficient and less confusing. Yes, individual fire districts bear responsibility for their operations but there can still be standardized dispatch and communications policies so everyone knows and understands what's going on without needing a secret decoder ring.

And, no disrespect to fire commissioners and/or chiefs, what happens when what they decide isn't best or current or consistent with everyone else? We just ignore the disparity and hope for the best? Come on, we have to get out of this mindset that everyone is their own little empire.

If an agency wants to use soup cans and string for communications fine, but if they're a signatory to the mutual aid plan or have any intentions of giving/receiving mutual aid to/from someone else they should become part of the system and that's where we're really lacking in this part of the country.

[TCD0415 26]

If they are blowing off the first page, then they are in the wrong business and have no worth to me on the fire scene. Its that attitude, "its a bs call thats a waste of my time," that causes a rift in the service between members of the department, members of surrounding departments, and paid and volunteer members. I can just hear paid guys snickering at that comment PEMO3(this is not turning into a paid bs volly debate).

Either show up on the first call, or leave your sorry a** on the couch at home because I don't want you there.

OK, "Hypothetical Situation" You were having a great day on the local course in town with 3 of your buddies. Spent $50 on greens fees. You just crushed your drive to 2 feet from the pin on a par 4, possibly an eagle going here. Halfway to the green, Bam, your pager goes off for an AFA, you know, the one that has come in 2 other times this week. What are ya gonna do ?

[PEMO3 523]

OK, "Hypothetical Situation" You were having a great day on the local course in town with 3 of your buddies. Spent $50 on greens fees. You just crushed your drive to 2 feet from the pin on a par 4, possibly an eagle going here. Halfway to the green, Bam, your pager goes off for an AFA, you know, the one that has come in 2 other times this week. What are ya gonna do ?

I think we all know exactly what is going to happen. That is exactly my original point. The mutual aid pages don't open the original department pagers. Reality is volunteers have a life outside their dept also. While it would be great if everyone always was in the position to drop everything and run many are not but will if truly needed. Many members loose pay from work or have to shutter their business to run on a job and knowing they were doing it for a working fire and not an unfounded would make that choice easier. Before anyone says it, yes it is a double edge sword, it could promote members to work for the 10-75 page before they run but more than likely these are the same ones that would have not run on the first hit. Point is there is a problem, there is a partial fix - something is better than nothing.

[JohnnyOV 2]

and no one tells the repeated offenders

I'll agree with you on all of your points and maybe i should have been alot more clearer, but what I am referring to is the guy who doesnt come out to ANYTHING except for that fire after the 2nd call out. Not your at sat golf game and 9/10 times you're there when you can be, but just not today.

[M' Ave 1,466]

The only thing I can see from reading this string of posts is that a regional (perhaps a couple of regional) fire dept's is something that Westchester Co. is SCREAMING FOR! It needed it decades ago. It needed it when I volunteered in Westchester and it needs it now more than ever! There are too many wasted or under utilized resources, too many under utilized people. Certainly there are people in every department who want to and COULD respond more often. Put them to better use and enter a system without so many lines and boundaries such. Some departments do very well with turning out manpower and some REALLY don't. The larger the pool of responders you draw from, the better. No one is expecting a guy to run off the golf course and answer a ringing alarm, actually, I wouldn't expect a guy to run for a working fire if he was putting on the 13th hole, or whatever. People have lives and they're going to be unavailable sometimes. That's the breaks, so expand, regionalize and have a more consistent turn-out.

There's more. There should be standardized responses that are arranged with the dispatch agency and are consistent county wide (larger more self sustaining dept's aside). I see things written in the paper, or on this web-site, that don't seem to have any REAL consistent meaning. What's a 2nd Alarm bring you? How about a 3rd and so on? When the word is given that you have a working fire (10-75 means nothing, according to anything I can find. It's 10-21 and 10-22) what will that bring to your scene? You should be able to transmit that you have a fire and without another word, certain resources should be sent by the dispatcher. You should DEFINITELY have a FAST unit right away. Do you get an extra engine, truck or both? Maybe more? I don't know the specifics, but those at the top should and it should be uniform for the area.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Boy, sorry if my post got your panties in a bunch but lets face facts manpower is a big issue and my point was to explore a solution to the problem. Should everyone run on everything everytime: sure. Does it happen: no. The point is there are two approaches: 1- Bury your head in the sand an make believe a problem does not exist or 2 - try and be proactive and do something about it. Sure home rule exists but that does not mean some standardization can not exist.

Sorry you felt your post got anyone's panties in a bunch, but I agree and back junkie. Having those show up some 15 to 20 minutes into an event doesn't do you much good when most often your first 2 minutes on a fire ground dictates your next 20. Those first moments are the most critical. Facts are you can't cry your a professional this and that and pick and choose what you want to come to. Not to mention what level are the 5 to 6 who might have blown it off trained to or qualified as? Fire police? Exterior? Interior? "Interior" SCBA fashion model AKA Yard packer or the infamous "yard bird." Thinking that getting a few more on a re tone is a solution..is burying your head in the sand. And yes you are right..there is standardization..from one AHJ to the next.

Scream for a county or regionalized departments...lol. Are you kidding me? What about the fifedoms? What about the amount of jobs it would create in the county that would more then likely result in many volunteers being hired as professional firefighters? I mean seriously...I've gotten rich off my pride...instead of what I do for a living..which is provide solid customer service in the fire and EMS disciplines. What would we do with all the pretty red, green, white, yellow fire trucks in each little island?

[Mark Z 18]

If they are blowing off the first page, then they are in the wrong business and have no worth to me on the fire scene. Its that attitude, "its a bs call thats a waste of my time," that causes a rift in the service between members of the department, members of surrounding departments, and paid and volunteer members. I can just hear paid guys snickering at that comment PEMO3(this is not turning into a paid bs volly debate).

Either show up on the first call, or leave your sorry a** on the couch at home because I don't want you there.

Often I leave home and by the time I am on scene or sometimes even just close I hear the OIC placing the call under control and returning units, so it may be simply that some people just turn around and head home because they really don't care about how many calls they get credit for making. I know that I am of an age where I don't chase calls across town, so having a second tone for a working fire is often a good idea and might get some to make an effort to get to the scene and pitch in to help rather than deal with cross town traffic for what may be nothing.

[Remember585 815]

To answer the "re-tone" question...

Yes, any agency we (60 Control) dispatch full time that has given us their greater alarm assignments SHOULD be re-toned upon transmission of the 10-75. Since I know my own FD best, the proper way it would go for a 10-75 should sound like this:

"60 Control to Croton, Ossining FAS Team, Buchanan Cascade, Croton EMS, Cortlandt VAC and Battalion 10, 123 Main Street between 1st and 2nd Avenues for a working structure fire."

Same thing goes when you upgrade to a 2nd alarm, 3rd Alarm, etc.

I know Yonkers also does this, starting with the "All hands," transmissions. (10-30?)

Some departments may have a confirmed fire (10-75) and not have anything programmed for this, so nothing else gets done. Like everyone said, each sandbox has it's own rules...

[fireguy43 35]

I had a terrible golf game last night and was a little POed to begin with, so I apologize as coming off a little to rash to you.

All I am saying is that if you acknowledge that this occurs and no one steps up to said members of the department that pull that crap, which is what it is in a lot nicer terms, then how is a problem getting fixed? All you are doing is validating there wrong actions without any consequences. If you, I and everyone else agrees its wrong, and no one tells the repeated offenders they are wrong, but say hey, look we do have plenty of members here now, but its 20min, 30min an hour into an operation, that is a problem in and of itself. You/your officers and anyone else who feels that way are only justifying their wrongdoing to make the moral feel better.

People who don't come on the first call out, obviously don' want to be there to begin with, are the guys who have had years in the volly department and think that "nothings changed or evolved from 10 years ago so there is no need for me to show up unless its a good job", haven't shown up to a drill in months or years yet still want to do something. These are the people who will be getting hurt, hurting others, or worse at a fire scene, hence why I have no use for them.

You might be old and crusty, but hell, show up more and teach the younger guys how its done the right way and set a good example.

Let's be careful with the sterotyping and broad brush statements. Someone your age would consider me old, and if you knew me, you'd probably agree to "crusty" as well. However, I've been doing this for 34 years plus, and I still turn out whenever I am home. Perhaps you are confusing older guys with guys who have more responsibilities, like a wife, kids, baseball coaching, soccer, school projects, etc....... It ain't the same as when you're young, unattached and carefree. You miss more alarms, more drills, more everything because you have other obligations as well. Not complaining about it, just a fact of life.

What really makes me chuckle about your post is that just as recently as last Friday morning (about 1:15 am), I was sitting in the cab of the engine, ready to respond to an attic fire in my district. There I was, 50+ years old, out of the house, down the road, and ready to roll. Where were all the "young guys"? Tucked into bed in their jammies. All of those Monday night warriors never seem to be around when it's time to act. Let's be careful about beating on the old guys, and be cognizant of the fact that there are plenty of "young guys" who don't show up all the time either.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

To answer the "re-tone" question...

Yes, any agency we (60 Control) dispatch full time that has given us their greater alarm assignments SHOULD be re-toned upon transmission of the 10-75. Since I know my own FD best, the proper way it would go for a 10-75 should sound like this:

"60 Control to Croton, Ossining FAS Team, Buchanan Cascade, Croton EMS, Cortlandt VAC and Battalion 10, 123 Main Street between 1st and 2nd Avenues for a working structure fire."

Same thing goes when you upgrade to a 2nd alarm, 3rd Alarm, etc.

I know Yonkers also does this, starting with the "All hands," transmissions. (10-30?)

Some departments may have a confirmed fire (10-75) and not have anything programmed for this, so nothing else gets done. Like everyone said, each sandbox has it's own rules...

Why can't we just play in one big sandbox and borrow each others toys?

Edited April 19, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Remember585 815]

What really makes me chuckle about your post is that just as recently as last Friday morning (about 1:15 am), I was sitting in the cab of the engine, ready to respond to an attic fire in my district. There I was, 50+ years old, out of the house, down the road, and ready to roll. Where were all the "young guys"? Tucked into bed in their jammies. All of those Monday night warriors never seem to be around when it's time to act. Let's be careful about beating on the old guys, and be cognizant of the fact that there are plenty of "young guys" who don't show up all the time either.

AMEN!

[Remember585 815]

Why can't we just play in one big sandbox and borrow each others toys?

Because we don't live in Utopia!

[kurt 5]

I'm from dutchess county and my dept has set up for any structure related fire that an engine from closest dept responds on call to back us up if someone gets on scene and has a conformed fire then a 2nd alarm is requested and it gets retoned for 2nd alarm assignedment and yes sometimes another dept might be the second due engine depends where it is we have 3 stations and from one station are the the other it could be at least 20 min for another station to get there so I see where everyone is coming from. Also there are times when I'm at work and a call comes in for afa smoke in building yea I wait and see what it is before I leave.can I make a suggestion if everyone thinks there is a problem with responses or a dispatching take it up with the chief then take it to county cars and so on. Just my opinion

[ny10570 745]

"60 Control to Croton, Ossining FAS Team, Buchanan Cascade, Croton EMS, Cortlandt VAC and Battalion 10, 123 Main Street between 1st and 2nd Avenues for a working structure fire."

Careful, 123 main st already burned. This all comes back to that same old westchester/ NYS in general home rule issue. Every jurisdiction has their own say. So until we start pushing our leaders and educating our residents we are just as responsible as the people making these myopic decisions.

[firemoose827 324]

I used to be a Volunteer, I work a FT job, go to school FT nights, and have a wife and 3 year old daughter at home. Its simple for me...1- Family 2- Work 3- Firehouse. My boss allows those who are volunteers to leave for fires and get paid (Untill you reach the end of your shift) BUT...it needs to be am actual fire and you may be requested to provide proof like a letter from your chief that there was a fire. If I were to leave for the alarms, or smell of smoke calls, or CO alarm calls and abuse that priviledge given to me by my boss I could loose my job and my lifeline for my families survival. Maybe thats why most fail to respond on the initial tone but show up upon receipt of a working fire.

If I was home it was never a question...I respond when I am available no matter what the call.