The "Senior Man" or lack there of

[Guest Firediver]

I wanted to spin off of the leadership thread and throw some questions out here about the "Senior Man". I want to get some different or same opinions about the role of the"Senior Man" in different depts.

1. What qualities makes a good "Senior Man"?(to you)

2. WHY do you consider him the "Senior Man"?

3. Does the "Senior Man" HAVE to be the guy with the most time OTJ?(In your opinion)

4. If you are the "Senior Man", What do you do with the "Pumpkin Patch Kids" or other junior men to make them better FF's?

5. If you are not the "Senior Man", What would you do different from the current "Senior Man" if you were?

Obviously there are no right or wrong answers to these and I hope that guys will answer honestly without feeling like someone is going to get pissed at them for their answers/opinions. Hell, maybe someone who reads this thread might change a few things to become a better "Senior Man". THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO THROW ANYONE UNDER THE BUS, BUT IF YOU DO GET MAD AT A POST AND TAKE IT PERSONAL, TAKE A STEP BACK AND SEE WHAT MADE YOU MAD BECAUSE IT JUST MIGHT POSSIBLY BE YOU.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Firediver

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Answer to #4 GIVE UP ! , They know everthing, when they are awake.

[gpdexplorer 46]

A good senior man is an experienced firefighter who will take younger firefighters under their wing and show them the ropes. He in understanding of the younger guy/gal, with out babying them, and knows it takes time to get it right, but lets them know what when they are f***ing up and shows them how to fix it. A good senior man isn't afraid to get down and dirty, but also lets the younger guys get in and go to work without putting them in a place they aren't ready for. The senior man doesn't necessarily have to have the most time in, because let's be honest a lot of the older guys around the firehouse are exactly the best role models on the fire ground. The senior man, while packed with knowledge, is humble and always willing to learn and train.

I consider the "senior men" to be such because they demonstrate the above, when I first started out, there were a group of guys who would show me what to do and how to do it. When it came to go out and jobs they would let me shadow them and when they thought I was ready for something, they would give me a shot at it. Then there weree clearly the other older guys who could swear up and down that they could teach every class out there and but never came out to drill.

My 2 Cents for now.

[Arrowxt 8]

A Senior man yells when yelling is needed, talks when talking is needed, does when doing is needed, most importantly listens when listening is needed.

They create themselves and each is unique.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Honestly, its pretty easy to see who the "Senior Man" is. Who is the guy that when he walks into a room, everyone quiets down? Who is the guy that consistently delivers results? Who is the guy that commands everyones respect? Who is the guy that the proby says "I want to be just like him" about? Who is the guy that has one last thing to say before its over, said and done with? Who is that guy that is willing to try one last thing that no one thought of or tried? That is the senior man. Its not necessarily the guy with the most years on the job or the biggest muscles but it is usually the guy with the levelest head, the highest qualifications and training, the easiest to relate to and the natural charisma and ability to lead.

Edited April 11, 2010 by bvfdjc316

[Guest Firediver]

I will widen the spectrum a bit. Officers, what do you want/look for in a "Senior Man"? How does it benefit you to have a good "Senior Man"?

[x134 46]

Honestly, its pretty easy to see who the "Senior Man" is. Who is the guy that when he walks into a room, everyone quiets down? Who is the guy that consistently delivers results? Who is the guy that commands everyones respect? Who is the guy that the proby says "I want to be just like him" about? Who is the guy that has one last thing to say before its over, said and done with? Who is that guy that is willing to try one last thing that no one thought of or tried? That is the senior man. Its not necessarily the guy with the most years on the job or the biggest muscles but it is usually the guy with the levelest head, the highest qualifications and training, the easiest to relate to and the natural charisma and ability to lead.

Respect is not commanded...... it is earned..... by leading by example and doing the right thing across the board when everyone is watching..... and not watching!

[Guest Firediver]

Respect is not commanded...... it is earned..... by leading by example and doing the right thing across the board when everyone is watching..... and not watching!

Excellent point! IMO the minute you COMMAND respect is the minute you lose it. You may personally not respect the person but you should respect his rank (Bars n Stars), if not everything will start to fall apart eventually. JMO

Edited April 11, 2010 by Firediver

[Guest Firediver]

Maybe some do not want to say anything b/c they do not want to offend anyone. So lets try this. Say you are interviewing a FF for the "Senior Man" position (I know we don't but lets see where this goes), Lets build a list of some of the MINIMAL qualities that we would want him/her to have.

I would look for someone who knows/performs the basics like the back of his hand and has no problem teaching the rest, FF's and Officers alike. Def not the guy who wants this title for a good seat infront of the TV or to get out of training b/c HE is senior and has done it before many times.

[M' Ave 1,466]

The senior man is a huge problem.....

....he is too few. At least in my neck of the woods. This lack of seniority has, in my limited view from inside the fire dept., been difficult. HOWEVER, the senior men who remain have been instrumental in leading us members of the Juniority in keeping up traditions and being willing to show us johnnies a thing or two at every opportunity. The burden of being in that positions is, no doubt, very great.

In my experience, there are two kinds of senior men. There is the true top senior man who has tons of time and you respect him because, well, he's seen it and done it and you haven't. You take care of him, make sure that his 12x watch is covered and that you ask him what he wants when you are heading to shop for the meal. This guy bears the burden of passing on the firehouse tradition and seeing to it that things continue to run in the well oiled manner that they have since anyone can remember. He is the officer's right hand man, his go to guy. He won't deal with day to day problems directly, in fact, you might find a senior man that doesn't have a lot to say to the proby....ever. He'll pass the word down the chain and feed you to the 10 year jackals! The senior man makes house policy and sets the tone. He is the most important person in the firehouse and his experience is invaluable.

The other kind of senior man is a little different. He isn't necessarily the guy with the most time, although he will certainly have more than most. He is a guy who steps up to lead in the firehouse everyday. He shares his knowledge and runs drills. I believe that the most effective "sub"-senior man is not the guy who breaks your chops all day from the kitchen table or the couch. He's the guy that you see DOING what you should be doing and without a word can make you run to help or steal that task from him. He won't say that you should be doing it, but you should realize that without anything being spoken. This is a guy who can make you want to step-up all of the time.

Thankfully, in all of my 10 seconds on the job, I've been able to work with the senior men who will take advantage of any opportunity to show you a trick or run through the paces of fire tactics at even the most mundane and routine run.

One thing aside from this, but important to note:

I think that the lack of enough senior firemen in a lot of instances has changed the role of the officer, at least temporarily. They do need to step outside of the typical officer's role and to share stories and knowledge to help bridge the seniority gap. Thankfully there have been enough senior officers around in my short career to do this. I think that the 8 officers assigned to the two companies in my house have a combined 140 (2 have less than 10 years so you can imagine what that means about the others) of experience. This is a huge bonus when, of the 4 guys on the backstep, 2 are probies and the other two of us have a combined time of about 6 years!

Edited April 11, 2010 by M' Ave

[FirNaTine 370]

It's sad but the truth of the matter is there aren't too many true Senior men left in the Fire Service at least around here. Many Senior men today are a complete waste both at a Job and in and around the Station. They shirk their responsibilities and will side more with the Junior men then with the Officer. They feel it's not their Job to show the Rookies anything, it's always the Officer's resposibility but will be the 1st one to condem them when they screw up. God why can't we go back to the days of old!

Edited April 11, 2010 by FirNaTine

[791075 34]

I will widen the spectrum a bit. Officers, what do you want/look for in a "Senior Man"? How does it benefit you to have a good "Senior Man"?

The senior man that would benefit an officer is ,in my humble opinion, someone who resembles what i would believe to be like a non-com officer in the military. Someone who squashes most firehouse B.S. and keeps the officer advised of any problems/concerns of the men, as well as the experience enough to offer his opinion in a constructive way. The senior man must earn his right to benefit from the title by doing the stuff that keeps the firehouse/firefighters on the right track before it needs to be addressed by the officer. That is what I was taught the senior man was and should be.

Edited April 11, 2010 by 791075

[JFLYNN 681]

I will widen the spectrum a bit. Officers, what do you want/look for in a "Senior Man"? How does it benefit you to have a good "Senior Man"?

This is a good question and I agree that many may choose not to answer because they don't want to offend anyone and / or look in the mirror. I'll jump in though because I think this is an important topic.

In the career fire service a good senior man should have several qualities...calm, confident, lead by example, minimal or no whining, an advocate for the men to the officers and an advocate for the officers to the men. A good senior man praises in public and criticizes in private. A good senior man does not take things personally nor does he make personal attacks.

A good senior man does not need to be the most intelligent, skilled, or physically fit firefighter...he realizes that his years of experience entitle him to respect automatically and this respect will be lost only if he is dishonest, uncaring, a bully,or a loudmouth.

A good senior man rarely, if ever, asks for special privilege due to his senior status. The less he asks, the more it will be given.

Good senior men have many different styles and personalities but I have found the most effective, comforting, senior men to be the type who are more likely to be found quietly observing from a corner of the room than loudly carrying on in the middle of the crowd.

Now, maybe we should talk about what makes a good junior man, because we can have the best Officers and senior men in the world, but if the guy or guys at the bottom and in the middle don't do their job and just want to blame their own bad attitudes and work ethic on those above them, all the best intentions of the bosses and senior men are useless.....

[x134 46]

This is a good question and I agree that many may choose not to answer because they don't want to offend anyone and / or look in the mirror. I'll jump in though because I think this is an important topic.

In the career fire service a good senior man should have several qualities...calm, confident, lead by example, minimal or no whining, an advocate for the men to the officers and an advocate for the officers to the men. A good senior man praises in public and criticizes in private. A good senior man does not take things personally nor does he make personal attacks.

A good senior man does not need to be the most intelligent, skilled, or physically fit firefighter...he realizes that his years of experience entitle him to respect automatically and this respect will be lost only if he is dishonest, uncaring, a bully,or a loudmouth.

A good senior man rarely, if ever, asks for special privilege due to his senior status. The less he asks, the more it will be given.

Good senior men have many different styles and personalities but I have found the most effective, comforting, senior men to be the type who are more likely to be found quietly observing from a corner of the room than loudly carrying on in the middle of the crowd.

Now, maybe we should talk about what makes a good junior man, because we can have the best Officers and senior men in the world, but if the guy or guys at the bottom and in the middle don't do their job and just want to blame their own bad attitudes and work ethic on those above them, all the best intentions of the bosses and senior men are useless.....

X 2 Chief!

[x129K 1,393]

Do you guys on the career jobs find the respect for the Senior Man diminishes with the addition of younger generations of members?

[JFLYNN 681]

Do you guys on the career jobs find the respect for the Senior Man diminishes with the addition of younger generations of members?

On our job you would need to pose that question to a member of the JMA...

But seriously, I don't think so. On our job the junior guys for the most part get it and show great respect for the senior guys, although they often do it with a very original sense of humor.

[Guest Firediver]

Chief Flynn and M'Ave hit the nail on the head (IMO) with the "Senior Man". And Yes Chief, there are problems with us junior guys too. But anyone can put on the "ACT" in probie school for X weeks and appear as a "Hardcharger"as I saw this first hand how they were and are now. Two different people. Possibly the guys in company (Senior man- junior junior guy) just do not know what their leadership role is b/c they were not guided as such? Being prior service has helped me to understand how these roles are filled at different levels, so do we need to go even further and say its the quality of guy/gal we hire? Should the academy be harder? longer? incorporate more chain of command understanding? Since your post took on another level of leadership, I wanted to hit on this seemingly fading role of the "Senior Man".

X129K, I think the lack of respect runs the gauntlet from the guy with 1min more than you to some officers(BUT NOT EVERYONE). I think its back to the whole being a prick thing that guys want others to like them and be friends,meanwhile if they only knew the respect they would get both below and above them just by doing what is expected (leadership wise). Like I stated before, you may not respect the person but you should be respectful of his rank/role, Friends or not!

Edited April 11, 2010 by Firediver

[helicopper 1,050]

There is too a real tangible benefit from the amount of time these personnel spend together. It is very hard to identify and come to respect "the senior guy" if you see him for just a few hours a couple of times a month. Conversely, the people who are spending 40 or more hours together every week come to develop bonds and relationships that are very unique and long-lasting. I'm not saying it can't be done in the former setting but it is much harder.

There used to be a similar "senior guy" in law enforcement but it is truly being made a thing of the past. There was always the guys on the tour who could be relied upon to be where the Sgt. wasn't and to make expectations clear (sometimes VERY clear) to newer guys. These guys would also carry the tradition and history of the department to insure that the legacy of their service was not forgotten. Sadly, there are a precious few of these remaining and the culture of law enforcement seems to be very intolerant of these types of leaders.

[ajsbear 11]

The senior man concept was a great thing. Many of the career departments still use it when paring up who works with whom on a shift. In the volunteer service you never know who's coming to an alarm. Many of the chiefs don't look at their senior people helping train the newer members, but some do. Some of the chiefs just ignore their senior guys who have been there and done that as they don't want to be shown up. Lot of personality issues.

[x129K 1,393]

The senior man concept was a great thing. Many of the career departments still use it when paring up who works with whom on a shift. In the volunteer service you never know who's coming to an alarm. Many of the chiefs don't look at their senior people helping train the newer members, but some do. Some of the chiefs just ignore their senior guys who have been there and done that as they don't want to be shown up. Lot of personality issues.

Oh it's no concept...it's a very real thing...a storied part of that thing so many are working to destroy...yep...tradition!

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the vollie side........Some Chiefs really need to trust their senior guys more...trust their judgements and their actions...don't microf'ingmanage everything!!!!!!

I also know that the term "senior man" refers to two totally different things when comparing volunteer to career....same "concept"....but very, very different.

[Remember585 815]

This is a good topic!

JFLYNN - excellent!

I'm not a career firefighter, but in the volunteer world I live in, I can tell you the difference between the "Senior Man" and the "Life Member."

The SM is a guy who has been around long enough to be trusted with just about any task. They unknowingly guide and lead younger guys at calls and drills. They'll give up the knob so someone with less time can get it. They'll show up to drills and offer to help with the evolutions, run the pump or put the aerial up and show others how to fly it. They're still coming to meeting nights and keeping quiet, only speaking up when the younger guys are missing the point or the older Life Members need a reality check. They quietly go with the flow, and have the respect for the Officers and Chiefs to tell them in private when they made a mistake or did a good job. They never seem to disrespect anyone of rank in front of younger, more impressionable members. They still get up at 2AM and man the Engine for a CO call when the younger guys feel they're too good to get out of bed for it.

Most importantly, in the volunteer world that I know, the best Senior Men always remember how it was, how it is, and how it will be. They respect those that were there before them and hold on to the good traditions, yet they don't put up a fuss when you change SOPs or mandate training because it will mean a safer tomorrow for everyone.

Nothing can replace the guidance of your Senior Man.

As for a "Life Member" vs. a "Senior Man," these are usually guys that "put their time in," and constantly remind you that "I don't have to do that anymore," and can always be found at the firehouse talking to others of "their kind" because the real players in the firehouse are usually out in the Engine Room checking the equipment or at the drill.

I will always feel priviledged to have grown up in a firehouse and a family with so many "Senior Men" who have mentored me and so many others into the members we are today. Their guidance and advice isn't just limited to the firehouse - it helps you in life altogether. These guys (in many cases whom have left this earth) had the sincerity, humbleness and pride that you just can't get out of most people today.

Don't take them for granted, because the day they're gone a piece of your firehouse is gone!

[antiquefirelt 994]

To be absolutely clear our senior men are those firefighters with the most time on our FD and holding no rank. There's one per shift and without a doubt the previous posters have really spoken to the best traits a senior man can have. But like so many other jobs, our senior men have positions have lost some position power due to the reduced age and time on of the total crew. Years ago, we had numerous guys with 20 plus years OTJ, now not one career person has over 17 years in this department! The seniormost firefighter has just ten years. These guys still do a good job, but the lack of fires and the heavily weight of EMS has sidelined a lot of tradition.

Our senior men are basically responsible for teaching the new guys everything they can in-house, while the proby is still married to the LT outside the bricks. If there is any question about how something is supposed to be, the senior man is the first stop. In our case in the absence of the shift Lt., the senior man (not the seniormost man) completes the daily log, otherwise it's left to the A/C to complete.

In my specific case, my senior man is ex-military which has a huge benefit, because he truly understands what it's like to do your job well, even when you don't like the task. He's great to keep the bitching to a low roar with a quick look or "STFU"! In a day where so many new people know so little about real work, a senior man who motivates the crew is a big plus. And of course you'll not see the term "senior man" in any written policy or guidelines. The position is one born out of tradtion and respect and has no contractual benefits, though the actual merits are palpable.

Edited April 13, 2010 by antiquefirelt