Ambulance Driver Cited for Reckless Driving in Petersburg Chase

[prucha25 76]

Thoughts?

Ambulance driver cited

PETERSBURG - A Petersburg ambulance driver has been charged with reckless driving for pulling his ambulance into the path of a suspect who led police on a 10-minute chase through the Petersburg area Thursday afternoon.

The ambulance driver, Lt. Mark Talbott, with the Southside Virginia Emergency Crew was charged with reckless driving several hours after the fleeding suspect crashed into the back of his ambulance at 4:30 p.m.

The suspect, 22-year-old Kevin D. Foster, fled that crash scene on foot and was chased down by police. He faces 10 criminal charges, including reckless driving, hit and run, stolen property and driving on a suspended license.

Original Story:

CBS 6 crews were on the scene of a police chase that ended with a crash in the city of Petersburg late Thursday afternoon.

That is where an ambulance driver intentionally pulled in front of the sedan police were chasing, in an apparent attempt to help officers end the pursuit. The car ran into the bumper of the ambulance, which is part of the Southside Emergency Crew.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Chris192
Articles redacted for compliance with copyright policy

[bfxfd 8]

Just reading this, I think it is asinine to charge this man for assisting police in catching a suspect. How can the police call it reckless to help them. While it may not have been the smartest idea to crash an ambulance, especially if there was a patient on board, but you have to admire this guys willingness to aid law enforcement. Of course im not a police officer so what are your thoughts on the subject? Would you want this type of help? or would it do more harm than good?

[20y2 43]

That's Virginia for you! The state is very well known for not 'working together' and their state police have both cited and arrested other uniformed officer in MARKED cars before. This doesn't surprise me in the least. IF this were to ever happen in NY there would be utter outrage. In VA it seems as though its expected.

[JJB531 652]

That's Virginia for you! The state is very well known for not 'working together' and their state police have both cited and arrested other uniformed officer in MARKED cars before. This doesn't surprise me in the least. IF this were to ever happen in NY there would be utter outrage. In VA it seems as though its expected.

Agreed. Professional courtesty means absolutely nothing in most parts of Virginia. Look at the NYPD motorcade that was pulled over for speeding by the Virginia State Police on their return trip home from New Orleans after assisting with the Hurrican Katrina response. Utterly ridiculous.

[nycemt728 49]

Thoughts?

Ambulance driver cited

Original Story:

The guy hit the nail on the head, we're all in this together. Was what he did the brightest move? Probably not, as it could have backfired and caused the damage/injury he was seeking to prevent. We don't want EMS or FD getting involved an police matter b/c they think they can do a better job, however he saw a opportunity to end what has been documented many times as a dangerous situation. As a trained emergency vehicle operator of what I can only guess to be a few years, lets give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew his vehicle and it's abilities...from the video looks like his maneuver was executed well and had good results. Here we go with the discretion argument again, given the situation this would be the perfect opportunity to exercise it... a warning for breaking the law, but a small unofficial thank you for assitance in the common effort of public safety/service. Want discipline? Let the guy serve a day or two inhouse suspension for bad driving or maybe damage to the company vehicle. Why potentially wreck a man's career when the situation ended postively and there are other avenuse to accomplish what the police want?

[engine845 8]

The guy hit the nail on the head, we're all in this together. Was what he did the brightest move? Probably not, as it could have backfired and caused the damage/injury he was seeking to prevent. We don't want EMS or FD getting involved an police matter b/c they think they can do a better job, however he saw a opportunity to end what has been documented many times as a dangerous situation. As a trained emergency vehicle operator of what I can only guess to be a few years, lets give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew his vehicle and it's abilities...from the video looks like his maneuver was executed well and had good results. Here we go with the discretion argument again, given the situation this would be the perfect opportunity to exercise it... a warning for breaking the law, but a small unofficial thank you for assitance in the common effort of public safety/service. Want discipline? Let the guy serve a day or two inhouse suspension for bad driving or maybe damage to the company vehicle. Why potentially wreck a man's career when the situation ended postively and there are other avenuse to accomplish what the police want?

Where do you get that FD or EMS think they can do a better job then the police? With that being said, maybe the police should stop "thinking they can do a better job" then the FD and not run into any buildings that are on fire.

[JJB531 652]

Where do you get that FD or EMS think they can do a better job then the police? With that being said, maybe the police should stop "thinking they can do a better job" then the FD and not run into any buildings that are on fire.

I agree that there is no inference in the story as to FD or EMS thinking they can do a better job then the PD, but if you or a loved one were trapped in a house fire, would you not want the first Police Officer on scene to attempt to effect a rescue before FD gets there? While dangerous, especially for an untrained and unequipped Police Officer (considering they have no Fire-related experience), it becomes a point of human nature as well as the general character traits of First Responders to save lives. I don't know too many Police Officers who would just stand there and watch a house burn down while waiting for FD, knowing that someone was trapped inside, without trying to perform some type of rescue. Once FD arrives on scene, I don't think any Police Officer would go charging into a burning building past all the firefighters. Therefore, once PD is involved in a pursuit, for safety reasons, ideally non-LEO's should really let the PD handle it.

While terminating a pursuit is a priority because of the potential for injuries to Police Officers and especially innocent civilians, Police Officers generally will gauge the risk/benefit in terms of whether to continue a pursuit based on the reason for the pursuit, traffic conditions, neighborhood conditions (pedestrians, school zones, etc.), aggressiveness of the individual being pursued, etc. When an individual gets involved in a pursuit who is not familiar with the PD's tactics and/or if the PD has already made concessions to terminate the pursuit via spike strips or other means, can in turn end up endangering the lives of the Police Officers involved because now you have "thrown a wrench" in whatever tactics the PD had intended to employ to end the pursuit. Obviously pursuits are unpredictable because you never know when a suspect is going to crash or bail-out on foot, but PD's do attempt to "control" the outcome of a pursuit as best they can.

Is it worth a Police Officer running into a burning house to effect a rescue knowing the danger associated with such actions? I think so. Is it worth a non-LEO getting involved in a police pursuit when the individual is being pursued for a non-violent offense? IMHO, probably not. His heart was in the right place, and I do not fault him at all for his actions, because as I said before, it's human nature and that inner drive to help taking over your actions.

[engine845 8]

I agree that there is no inference in the story as to FD or EMS thinking they can do a better job then the PD, but if you or a loved one were trapped in a house fire, would you not want the first Police Officer on scene to attempt to effect a rescue before FD gets there? While dangerous, especially for an untrained and unequipped Police Officer (considering they have no Fire-related experience), it becomes a point of human nature as well as the general character traits of First Responders to save lives. I don't know too many Police Officers who would just stand there and watch a house burn down while waiting for FD, knowing that someone was trapped inside, without trying to perform some type of rescue. Once FD arrives on scene, I don't think any Police Officer would go charging into a burning building past all the firefighters. Therefore, once PD is involved in a pursuit, for safety reasons, ideally non-LEO's should really let the PD handle it.

While terminating a pursuit is a priority because of the potential for injuries to Police Officers and especially innocent civilians, Police Officers generally will gauge the risk/benefit in terms of whether to continue a pursuit based on the reason for the pursuit, traffic conditions, neighborhood conditions (pedestrians, school zones, etc.), aggressiveness of the individual being pursued, etc. When an individual gets involved in a pursuit who is not familiar with the PD's tactics and/or if the PD has already made concessions to terminate the pursuit via spike strips or other means, can in turn end up endangering the lives of the Police Officers involved because now you have "thrown a wrench" in whatever tactics the PD had intended to employ to end the pursuit. Obviously pursuits are unpredictable because you never know when a suspect is going to crash or bail-out on foot, but PD's do attempt to "control" the outcome of a pursuit as best they can.

Is it worth a Police Officer running into a burning house to effect a rescue knowing the danger associated with such actions? I think so. Is it worth a non-LEO getting involved in a police pursuit when the individual is being pursued for a non-violent offense? IMHO, probably not. His heart was in the right place, and I do not fault him at all for his actions, because as I said before, it's human nature and that inner drive to help taking over your actions.

I do agree with what you are saying, I was simply making a comment on that quote. I ask you this though, how is a police officer running into a house fire any different then a firefighter running into a hostage situation? Also, a police officer running into a house fire may in turn endanger the lives of the firefighters. If god forbid something happened to the officer, its the firefighter that are gonna be trying to get him/her out. Like I said, I do agree with what your saying, just trying to elaborate on both sides of things.

[JJB531 652]

I do agree with what you are saying, I was simply making a comment on that quote. I ask you this though, how is a police officer running into a house fire any different then a firefighter running into a hostage situation? Also, a police officer running into a house fire may in turn endanger the lives of the firefighters. If god forbid something happened to the officer, its the firefighter that are gonna be trying to get him/her out. Like I said, I do agree with what your saying, just trying to elaborate on both sides of things.

There is actually a big difference between a Police Officer running into a burning building and a Firefighter running into a Hostage Situation. The difference is TIME. In a house fire, minutes, even seconds, matter. There is an imminent threat to life, and someone, whether it be a Firefighter, Police Officer, or civilian, needs to act quickly in order to effect a rescue, otherwise trapped people will likely perish. In a hostage situation, minutes matter also, but more often in the opposite manner. Typically time is on the side of Law Enforcement, not against us. Hostage takers generally use their hostages as a bargaining chip, therefore they are not so fast to lose that leverage by killing a hostage. Law Enforcement uses time to their advantage to "wear down" a hostage taker through negotiations and other tactics, while attempting to bring a peaceful resolve to the incident. Even Law Enforcement doesn't just rush into a hostage incident, they will utilize other means before effecting an entry.

I understand what you are saying though, that a Police Officer or civilian running into a burning building can cause an increased risk for firefighters attempting to rescue a now incapacitated PO/Civilian. As a human being, I know I couldn't just stand there and watch without making an attempt.

[Bnechis 3,961]

but if you or a loved one were trapped in a house fire, would you not want the first Police Officer on scene to attempt to effect a rescue before FD gets there?

Sounds like a good idea, but I remember a late night fire in an animal hospital, with a report of a possible worker inside. Upon FD arrival they entered and found a victim at the base of the basement stairs and removed him, once outside they relized it was a PO and the actual victim was still inside, they went back in to get him. The officer's well meaning actions delayed the civilians rescue (both luckily recovered). The PO recived an award for the "recue" and the irony is that when I cut out newspaper article on the award, the back side had the article on the police dept. being charged with violating NYS DOL Law for allowing the untrained officer to enter a hazardous environment.

While dangerous, especially for an untrained and unequipped Police Officer (considering they have no Fire-related experience)......... Police Officers generally will gauge the risk/benefit in terms of whether to continue a pursuit based on the reason for the pursuit, traffic conditions, neighborhood conditions (pedestrians, school zones, etc.), aggressiveness of the individual being pursued, etc. When an individual gets involved in a pursuit who is not familiar with the PD's tactics and/or if the PD has already made concessions to terminate the pursuit via spike strips or other means, can in turn end up endangering the lives of the Police Officers involved because now you have "thrown a wrench" in whatever tactics the PD had intended to employ to end the pursuit.

If you reverse firefighter and police officer here, whats the difference? Yes FF's/EMS are not trained in risk/beefit of a pursuit, but PO's are not trained in risk/beefit of a fire entry. One of the reasons we teach civilians not to re-enter a burning structure is that without SCBA it is possible that 1-2 breaths are all that it will take to knock a person out. Even with SCBA, failure to understand fire behavior can cost lives. About 20 years ago a NYPD ESU officer equipped with SCBA (for hazmat) entered a burning structure to search for victims. To reduce smoke in the structure the PO's partner vented the building which resulted in a flashover. The 1st officer was caught in that flashover and FDNY Rescue 1 was able to remove him, and he was admitted to NYH Cornell's Burn unit but he did not survive his in injuries.

Obviously pursuits are unpredictable because you never know when a suspect is going to crash or bail-out on foot, but PD's do attempt to "control" the outcome of a pursuit as best they can.

Fires are just as unpridictable, particularly if not trained in building construction and fire behavior.

Is it worth a Police Officer running into a burning house to effect a rescue knowing the danger associated with such actions? I think so.....His heart was in the right place, and I do not fault him at all for his actions, because as I said before, it's human nature and that inner drive to help taking over your actions.

It is clear that they do not understand the danger. Yes his heart is in the right place, but his head is not.

[JJB531 652]

We can debate this back and forth and turn this into a FD vs. PD rant all we want... which I personally believe will be pointless and won't prove anything. The simple fact is that Police Officers are not experts on Fire Suppression and Firefighters are not experts on Law Enforcement tactics. If you read my last post, I clearly stated:

"I understand what you are saying though, that a Police Officer or civilian running into a burning building can cause an increased risk for firefighters attempting to rescue a now incapacitated PO/Civilian. As a human being, I know I couldn't just stand there and watch without making an attempt."

Why do these topics such as these always turn into a "don't step foot in my sandbox" mentality?

[helicopper 1,050]

Therefore, once PD is involved in a pursuit, for safety reasons, ideally non-LEO's should really let the PD handle it.

While terminating a pursuit is a priority because of the potential for injuries to Police Officers and especially innocent civilians, Police Officers generally will gauge the risk/benefit in terms of whether to continue a pursuit based on the reason for the pursuit, traffic conditions, neighborhood conditions (pedestrians, school zones, etc.), aggressiveness of the individual being pursued, etc. When an individual gets involved in a pursuit who is not familiar with the PD's tactics and/or if the PD has already made concessions to terminate the pursuit via spike strips or other means, can in turn end up endangering the lives of the Police Officers involved because now you have "thrown a wrench" in whatever tactics the PD had intended to employ to end the pursuit. Obviously pursuits are unpredictable because you never know when a suspect is going to crash or bail-out on foot, but PD's do attempt to "control" the outcome of a pursuit as best they can.

I think the emotional "we're all on the same team" stuff is nice and we should practice that day to day so we operate efficiently together but it doesn't excuse us from the law or from meeting training standards or making sound decisions based on our knowledge, skills, and experience.

Being objective and looking at this strictly from a legal perspective, the driver of the ambulance was wrong. Had this been a police officer blocking the path of the suspect vehicle he probably would have been wrong too so don't think I'm picking on the EMS guy. I say the cop would probably have been wrong because he has different knowledge, skills, and experience upon which to base such a decision. He knows what the offender is being chased for, he knows what the law says about roadblocks (in court this will probably be described as a "roadblock" and there are, at least in NYS, pretty specific criteria when you are legally authorized to establish a roadblock).

Without having the training in pursuit tactics and driving and knowledge of the situation at hand, he should have just let the pursuit go by.

Did he know if there were officers down the road with spike strips?

Did he know whether or not the use of force (placing a 10,000 pound ambulance in front of a fleeing car can be considered the use of force) was authorized or justified?

Did he know if the decision to continue/discontinue the pursuit was being weighed given the conditions?

What if the crash resulted in the injury or death of someone?

What if it was an armed suspect and he shot the ambulance driver?

What if one of the pursuing officers crashed as a result of the sudden "roadblock"?

What if (think of NJ now) the suspect stole the ambulance to continue his flight?

What if the suspect simply drove around the ambulance and became more reckless in his efforts to escape?

Yes these are a lot of "what if" questions but the simple fact is that this guy was lucky the situation wasn't worse, vehicle driving faster, more desperate suspect, etc. These are all things that the court will have to consider because while you may or may not like the VA State Police, the law is the law as their spokesperson said in the video clip.

The driver and his boss played the what if game too talking about traffic and pedestrians down the road who may or may not have been at risk.

As for all the banter about cops running into burning buildings, I guess it depends on the totality of the circumstances. Are there situations where a cop can make a difference without undue risk, probably. Are there times where it is just plain stupid, definitely.

If a firefighter knowingly runs into a hostage situation he should promptly be delivered to the psych ER for evaluation. What can he possibly do to end a hostage situation?

[huzzie59 75]

This is all good banter and I havn't taken it as PD vs EMS vs FD. Everything here cited here are just examples of situations that happen. Tomorrow, in a given situation, the cop is running into a burning building, a firefighter is chasing a purse snatcher, etc. etc.

All good people with the best of intentions.

Hopefully, just like everything in life, the individual will use his/her experience and knowledge and make the correct decision in a particular situation.

So learn from others actions.