Firefighter Accountability

[antiquefirelt 994]

A PAR can be called for, even when there is no emergency like a collapse or m'aidez. In fact an IC should call fo a PAR if the incident starts getting complicated, or if you have been on scene for a long period of time. Sometimes an IC wants to make sure people are where he thinks they are, and doing what he told them to do. A PAR message is not a get out message.

Yes, it looks like FD's practice that PAR can only be done on the lawn or in the street. Our process would be to conduct a PAR via the radio with all crews. As BNechis said, we count on firefighters remaining on task when a MAYDAY is received. All of the reasons we have crews inside are actually magnified when a member is in trouble, and definitely not readily abandoned. We still must ventilate to facilitate fire control, visibility and relieve untenable conditions. We must control the fire to limit the damage to the building and improve conditions for any citizen-victims, as well as our member with the MAYDAY. This is why we have RIT/FAST, so we can keep operations moving forward while also providing for the assistance or rescue of our own. This doesn't preclude members in the immediate area from coming to a members aid, but it should be with the knowledge and approval of the IC.

This brings up a good training point. Most often we see PAR being conducted in conjunction with an evacuation drill. Maybe this sort of instills the wrong message. Maybe running a PAR in the middle of a standard live fire training would change this underlining belief that we need to be outside to conduct a PAR?

[Bnechis 3,961]

What do you suggest for accountability? You bring up a lot of good points as to the flaws of a tag system. I just want to know how you do accountability and why you find that it is a good way?

We are far from having the perfect or even a very good system, but we realized long ago that tags do not work well. There are a number of elements that are needed:

1) Sufficient personnel on the 1st unit and the remainder of the 1st alarm. With response times that the additional personnel arrive within 4-8 minutes of the 1st engine.

2) assignments based on crew seating or position (i.e. nozzle, hydrant, jump seat, etc.) Everyone knows what tools and procedures each member is going to perform, the tools they are going to bring is all based on the seat and if that rig is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th due. This way we have a general idea of where each member should be and who they should be with.

3) Portable radio's!!!! Every member and its assigned based on the seat assignment.

i.e. 22a - is Engine 22 officer, 22b driver, 22c nozzle and 22d hydrant.

4) A chiefs Aid to start accountability. In the case of a career dept at the begining of the tour. He has a list in the car of all members on duty, seat and radio assignment. If it changes during the day, its updated. So when he pulls up he knows who is here. We still use the tags, but they do not tell the position & radio, for a VFD/call or combo the passport system would compensate for this and the aid would just need to go to each rig and grab it.

5) Command Staff to assign as accountability officer. Once these members show up we document where crews are operating, and based on the roster plus documenting additional members as assigned. we know who is there and generally where they are operating. we try to track air time, but that is difficult for the initial response as they arrive prior to command staff.

We do use the tags and they get picked up at some point, but I consider them more like dog tags to tell us after the fact who was here if something goes wrong.

[wraftery 1,275]

One tip for doing a PAR via radio: Give your people a pre-announcement such as "All units operating at 123 Main St, standby for a PAR." Wait a little bit for them to do their piece of the PAR before calling for the entire PAR. I've done this in training and actual incidents and it goes alot smoother.

Picture a multi family dwelling with fire on more that one floor. The PAR should something like this (After the pre-announcement)

"Command to all unit operating at 123 Main St on a PAR...Division 6

Division 6, I have E1, E4, L2, PAR is 10 on Floor number 6 all accounted for, E2 Driver is at the pump.

Received Division 6...Division 7 PAR" And so on

As this is going on, the person at the IC Board (and NOT the IC in this case) should be checking his board against the PAR> Not the IC because this job has exceeded the max span of control of 7. Somebody questioned my number of 7 before. It's 7 max, and 5 optimum.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Somebody questioned my number of 7 before. It's 7 max, and 5 optimum.

This is the standard that's being taught. At 3 you need a specific leader at greater than 7 you need another layer to ensure you can limit the span of control. The funny part is that while 5 is in the middle and considered optimum, would 3 actually be optimal? The least number of outside influences on the person the easier it will be for them to focus. Less than 3 and you should be able to work it without naming the position. Anyway no disagreement, but a little pet peeve about NIMS "optimal" vs. reality.

[wraftery 1,275]

This is the standard that's being taught. At 3 you need a specific leader at greater than 7 you need another layer to ensure you can limit the span of control. The funny part is that while 5 is in the middle and considered optimum, would 3 actually be optimal? The least number of outside influences on the person the easier it will be for them to focus. Less than 3 and you should be able to work it without naming the position. Anyway no disagreement, but a little pet peeve about NIMS "optimal" vs. reality.

Yes. I always thought that the lower the number, the more optimal it is, but I am just a follower. You probably also think that 1 is better than 3, 5, or 7. It's not so. Try getting your wife to do what you want!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Yes. I always thought that the lower the number, the more optimal it is, but I am just a follower.

Somehow, I doubt that's 100% accurate.

You probably also think that 1 is better than 3, 5, or 7. It's not so. Try getting your wife to do what you want!

Good point! We call her: SWIMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed)No, I just chuckle and ask the question why 5 is better than 3 for span of control when the NIMS-TTT instructor say this. I think the standard answer is "because the government says so."

[Remember585 815]

I don't care what anybody says, there is no perfect accountability system.

Career departments, let's use FDNY as an example, have a better system then us in vollywood, but I bet it has it's flaws.

Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but haven't their been FF LODDs in NYC where the brother was unaccounted for, for several minutes? I can't remember the exact case, but one incident I recall involved a FF LODD in a basement of a PD, where it took several minutes to realize he was missing?

Again, please correct me if I am wrong. I'm not knocking anyone by any means, I am just trying to prove that bad things happen to good people and in some cases, we don't know about it until it is too late.

[wraftery 1,275]

An accountability as a system, whoever's system you are using is not perfect. However, accountability as an ATTITUDE should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. What I mean by an attitude is this: you call yourselves brothers. You came to the incident with that brother. It's your duty as his brother to watch out for him and know where he is all the time. and he is suppposed to do the same.

No tags, IC boards, signup sheets, or federal labor law will ever be as close to perfect as that bond between brothers.

That's accountability.

Edited March 19, 2010 by wraftery

[efdcapt115 1,511]

An accountability as a system, whoever's system you are using is not perfect. However, accountability as an ATTITUDE should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. What I mean by an attitude is this: yo call yourselves brothers. You came to the incident with that brother. It's your duty as his brother to atch out for him and know where he is all the time. and he is suppposed to do the same.

No tags, IC boards, signup sheets, or federal labor law will ever be as close to perfect as that bond between brothers.

That's accountability.

And THAT is a great post. Thank you Chief!

Edited March 19, 2010 by efdcapt115

[16fire5 693]

2) assignments based on crew seating or position (i.e. nozzle, hydrant, jump seat, etc.) Everyone knows what tools and procedures each member is going to perform, the tools they are going to bring is all based on the seat and if that rig is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th due. This way we have a general idea of where each member should be and who they should be with.

In the FDNY an added element is that in a ladder company half my firefighters are not under my direct supervision since the roof, OV, and chauffeur may have assignments depending on the building that cause them to operate remote from me and even alone at times. This is where disipline and training really kick in members must know to contact the boss by radio when teaming up, leaving their normal position, and other improtant events. If firefighters keep it in mind that their officer must know where they are and might I add what they are doing and officers keep track of their firefighters that is what acomplishes accountability. All the tags in the world and guys outside with boards and rings don't help if the members don't have the accountability mindset. If you don't use seating positions and standard assignments and wing it for every fire accountability will be next to impossible. When you get down to it accountability is a puzzle piece that fits in with the other pieces ICS, SOPs, Safety. Without all the pieces meshing together all of them individually will suffer.

FYI the Resource Unit Leader is relieved by the officer on the Field Comm Unit and usually gets assigned a sector.

[FiftyOnePride 100]

http://www.cdc.gov/n...face200837.html

A new NIOSH LODD report that came out, recommendation #3 deals with accountability.

It comes down to what works for each individual department, some things work for one department, and others for another. It all boils down really to mentality and attitude, but those mindsets are what make each style or type work for them. If a company is committed to it, they will make their mindset work for the whole company.

Edited March 22, 2010 by FiftyOnePride