Answers and Help Needed

[220LT188 11]

I am on a little bit of a fact finding mission. So...I am hoping that Bravo is still a good place to find help and/or answers or generally to see what departments do, think, operate with, and use...Please Bear With Me

Gas Detectors:

Looking into refitting our department with a new Gas Dectection System. Right now we carry one (4) four gas (o2, h2s, lel, co) unit on each engine and one on the rescue. Each chief car is equipped with a single (co) unit. So...

What companies are out there?

Any recommendations?

How do you calibrate, bump test and document and/or ensure that the units are in top working condition? (Obviously I am a vollie and daily and/or shift checks are hard, so a weekly check is done), so the problem arises on how to have an effective, cost effeceint and accountable program.

Bail-Out Systems:

This is actually just a simple question and I am looking for people that are more informed then myself on the latest ideas, theories and ideas on the subject (maybe some chiefs or instructors can chime in on this one)

It has been said to me that the growing consensus and best procedures for 'bailing out' is to simply ditch and disgard your air pack prior to the bailing out. In simple words..take off your air pack and then proceed to go out the window and lower yourself with your required department 'bail-out' system.

Some background and my idea....There is currently a debate in our department on which type of system to purchase for the required bailout systems. (yes I know we are far behind the ball on this) 1) the harness system you wear on your bunker pants or 2) an intergrated system that is 'in' and part of your air pack

Now I am not married to either so I figure as long as it gets me out of trouble I dont care..but being a in upper management now cost, training ease, implementation, maintence, accountability are all factors....It was told to me that the current consesus and idea being progressively pushed in the fire service is, as stated above, to ditch and disgard your pack prior to bailing...Is this the case?

I took firefighting essentials 14 years ago, I have taken a few safety and survival seminars and classes and I dont remember this being the case. Even as recent as this summer watching my people go through some bail-out evolutions they did not seem to take this approach. I have always beleived and been taught that our air pack is our life and you hold on to it for dear life.

So any ideas and or has anyone heard more about this or read articles and is this what we should be leaning towards?

Sorry for the rambling and any thoughts on these subjects is greatly appreciated

Mike

[Remember585 815]

I sent you a PM, Chief.

[Raz 14]

Bail-Out Systems:

This is actually just a simple question and I am looking for people that are more informed then myself on the latest ideas, theories and ideas on the subject (maybe some chiefs or instructors can chime in on this one)

It has been said to me that the growing consensus and best procedures for 'bailing out' is to simply ditch and disgard your air pack prior to the bailing out. In simple words..take off your air pack and then proceed to go out the window and lower yourself with your required department 'bail-out' system.

Some background and my idea....There is currently a debate in our department on which type of system to purchase for the required bailout systems. (yes I know we are far behind the ball on this) 1) the harness system you wear on your bunker pants or 2) an intergrated system that is 'in' and part of your air pack

Now I am not married to either so I figure as long as it gets me out of trouble I dont care..but being a in upper management now cost, training ease, implementation, maintence, accountability are all factors....It was told to me that the current consesus and idea being progressively pushed in the fire service is, as stated above, to ditch and disgard your pack prior to bailing...Is this the case?

I took firefighting essentials 14 years ago, I have taken a few safety and survival seminars and classes and I dont remember this being the case. Even as recent as this summer watching my people go through some bail-out evolutions they did not seem to take this approach. I have always beleived and been taught that our air pack is our life and you hold on to it for dear life.

So any ideas and or has anyone heard more about this or read articles and is this what we should be leaning towards?

Sorry for the rambling and any thoughts on these subjects is greatly appreciated

Mike

I've never had to bail out, and hopefully never will, but if things are so bad that I have to consider jumping out of a window and sliding down a rope...then things are probably bad enough that I wouldn't take the time to doff my airpack in the process. For what it's worth, I've used the Petzl and RIT systems. Go with Petzl.

[traumajunky 5]

Bail-Out Systems:

This is actually just a simple question and I am looking for people that are more informed then myself on the latest ideas, theories and ideas on the subject (maybe some chiefs or instructors can chime in on this one)

It has been said to me that the growing consensus and best procedures for 'bailing out' is to simply ditch and disgard your air pack prior to the bailing out. In simple words..take off your air pack and then proceed to go out the window and lower yourself with your required department 'bail-out' system.

Some background and my idea....There is currently a debate in our department on which type of system to purchase for the required bailout systems. (yes I know we are far behind the ball on this) 1) the harness system you wear on your bunker pants or 2) an intergrated system that is 'in' and part of your air pack

Now I am not married to either so I figure as long as it gets me out of trouble I dont care..but being a in upper management now cost, training ease, implementation, maintence, accountability are all factors....It was told to me that the current consesus and idea being progressively pushed in the fire service is, as stated above, to ditch and disgard your pack prior to bailing...Is this the case?

I took firefighting essentials 14 years ago, I have taken a few safety and survival seminars and classes and I dont remember this being the case. Even as recent as this summer watching my people go through some bail-out evolutions they did not seem to take this approach. I have always beleived and been taught that our air pack is our life and you hold on to it for dear life.

So any ideas and or has anyone heard more about this or read articles and is this what we should be leaning towards?

Sorry for the rambling and any thoughts on these subjects is greatly appreciated

Mike

Okay, so my limited fire experience being a FFII and a FASTeam member on a low budget department I'm going to give the "cheap" but effective bail out technique that works for my department members. We make do with what we have, because the whole harness thing is not in the near future budget for us.

You may have even already tried this method.

I would say the easiest bail out for me would be a tool, preferably a halligan, with a 50ft personal escape rope tied to it. You clear the window, place the halligan diagonally across the bottom of the inside of the window with the rope centered, and deploy the rope out the window behind you as you hang outside of it (inside arm and leg still in window). With the first 5 to 7 feet or so (depending on your size) of the rope from the tool, take it and get the rope up under your airpack waist strap and join the two sides of the rope in your free hand in front of you, not crossing the two ends or wrapping the rope around your hand. Have both ends of the rope facing the same direction in your hand. Make sure your tool is not going to slip, out of the window by giving the rope a quick tug. Carefully with the rope firmly in your hand let yourself slide upright out of the window, and control your descent down to safety, with your airpack being your harness. It sounds like a lot of steps, but it can be deployed in seconds. The technique takes a few tries, but practice in a safe enviornment will help you perfect it.

I'm not saying this will work for you and you should use it, but it's worth a try. Plus I'd rather be hanging out a window on a rope than inside a s*** enviornment getting burnt to a crisp, but that's my opinion.

If you would like further explaination of this please feel free to PM me.

[ny10570 745]

Dumping your pack wastes valuable time in an emergency. You're also losing going to take a feed while you're setting up and then bailing out. The face mask also protects you from the wall that you very well may bump into.

[JM15 386]

Chief here is a video I found about the Petzl system....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5rkyx_exo-personal-escape-system_tech

[Bnechis 3,961]

Gas Detectors:

Looking into refitting our department with a new Gas Detection System. Right now we carry one (4) four gas (o2, h2s, lel, co) unit on each engine and one on the rescue. Each chief car is equipped with a single (co) unit. So...

What companies are out there? Any recommendations?

How do you calibrate, bump test and document and/or ensure that the units are in top working condition? (Obviously I am a vollie and daily and/or shift checks are hard, so a weekly check is done), so the problem arises on how to have an effective, cost effeceint and accountable program.

We currently use the scott scout multi gas for suppression companies. it is the best we have delt with for that application. very easy to calibrate, lots of features that can be set at different user levels, so a basic detector that with a password can go to tech level with lots of features.

Standards are you need to bump test it before use and calibrate at regular intervolts. the default is 30 days and it has a count down that tells you when its needed. We bump test weekly and anytime the detector has other than normal readings on start up or if the crew is unsure about readings it got.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not sure who has "mentioned" to you that the consensus and best procedure for bailing out is to remove your pack but I'd be interested in knowing who is passing this information on. By all means PM me and I'm not looking for personal information but more where these individuals got this information from and what capacity they serve in your department. If your bailing out with a device or with nothing more then a rope, you are are in serious trouble and you are pretty much out of options and cannot wait for or have no other option then to deploy a system which all take some (varying) times to deploy. If you have time to doff your SCBA then perhaps you'd have the time to wait for a ladder as an option if the window is reachable. I've taught Ff survival for several years and provide training with some bailout systems and I've yet to hear this. The method traumajunky mentions is the one that is still in the NY State FF Survival curriculum and works well but you have to ensure that you have rope and it is the correct size to ensure you get the friction you need to self belay. The only thing I would caution about what he mentioned is that first, the level of the bottom of the sill will dictate the level of where the rope will wrap around your body. I prefer around my cylinder as it is more comfortable and won't possibly ride up under the coat causing pain which may cause a person to let go because of it. Also when you bail out in this manner you may not have the ability to get an arm and leg out the window as your basically sitting in it. Again in high heat conditions you may not be able to get that high. Instead your push your left shoulder horizontally out the window while keeping your hands in place and roll your hips to get clear your bottom leg out the window, then you use your top leg as a control and drag it out the window preventing you from flipping. Bottom line is as long as you hold your tool in place properly and hold on to the rope correctly even if you do flip its not a critical event and you will end up vertical to begin your decent. The only thing I will say is, if you haven't done this and you haven't been trained to instruct this technique..seek assistance to do so..and always use a safety anytime you are practicing bailouts with any technique or device.

I also have to agree with Barry in regard to the SCOTT multi gas detector. I've used them in my department for a few years now and they are easy to use, easy to bump test and easy to calibrate.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Being somewhat out of the loop, I didn't realize this had become law. Thanks to thebravest.com for the update:

New York State Fire Departments

Must Comply Fully with Department of Labor Code Rule 800.7

Four Steps Move Fire Departments toward Meeting the Law’s Requirements

New York, NY (March 15, 2010) – Legislation about emergency escape and self rescue ropes and system components for firefighters has created a lot of confusion for fire departments throughout the state of New York. Department of Labor Code Rule 800.7 is now in full effect and departments must take immediate action to become compliant, or risk receiving a citation from PESH.

The law requires that the authority having jurisdiction take four distinct steps: completing a risk assessment, reviewing and editing SOPs, purchasing equipment if needed and training firefighters.

Despite a legal challenge, the “final” regulation went into effect on December 2, 2009. Although another lawsuit regarding the legislation is ongoing, the New York State Association of Fire Chiefs encourages departments not to delay compliance with the final regulation.

“Departments need to be moving forward on compliance with this legislation,” said Thomas LaBelle, Executive Director of the New York State Association of Fire Chiefs. “If the Department of Labor shows up and you have done nothing, you are going to have trouble.”

“The law has gone into effect,” said Chief John P Brown, Chief Instructor at the Nassau County Fire Service Academy. “There are no more deadlines. The deadlines have come and gone.”

http://www.thebravest.com/FDNYNewsArchive/10/03/18a.htm