Hartsdale Multiple Alarm Fire Photos 3/15/10

[TCD0415 26]

So I'm an idiot, I drew in 171 instead of 174. Substitute accordingly.

To better demonstrate my answer about the ladder positioning:

This is the positioning in the posted pictures. They were taken relatively early on in the course of the incident.

From the first 2 pictures in the original post, it appears that the Ladder was even further out initially than in your drawing. The picture shows it at the base of the exposure D's driveway which would put them on the far side of that big a** tree. That being said, It definitely was a reach for them to even get to the roof at all. They made the best of what they had until they could reposition closer.

As stated a few times already Try to remember to leave room for the Truck if at all possible.

Been There Done That......

[Raz 14]

From the first 2 pictures in the original post, it appears that the Ladder was even further out initially than in your drawing. The picture shows it at the base of the exposure D's driveway which would put them on the far side of that big a** tree. That being said, It definitely was a reach for them to even get to the roof at all. They made the best of what they had until they could reposition closer.

You're right. I was trying to hastily illustrate the differences in the "before and after" positioning, but I seem to have overlooked the tree. Good thing I'm not working on the Zapruder film.

If my "Google-Foo" and HS geometry doesn't fail me, it looks like a 95-100 aerial anywhere on the street beyond "the tree" would have allowed for access to the peak of the roof. I know it seems easy to say on the computer from miles away, but I like to see a large empty spot where a ladder should be regardless if you own one or have one on your first due assignment. It's just good practice to always be thinking "I need to leave room for a ladder". So, not to pick apart any one, we should all look at the pictures and think could this happen to us if our first due ladder was OOS or delayed? I know one of our crews blocked out a mutual aid ladder just last week, while ours was OOS, excrement happens. I also know it will not happen again on that shift!

As stated a few times already Try to remember to leave room for the Truck if at all possible. Been There Done That......

I think there's a larger discussion to be had here. We've all beaten "leave room for the truck" into our heads since probie school, but here's an example where "leave room for the truck" might be a mutually exclusive idea as opposed to "put water on the fire." Now, Hartsdale is a rather proactive department when it comes to mapping and testing the flows of their hydrants. The officer on the first rig probably knew that there was a hydrant in front of the house, he also probably knew that (being on a dead end and up a hill), that he might only be able to flow one or two 1 3/4" lines (again, I point you to the size of the building and the potential fire load). The second or third due engine was going to have to grab a water source from a pretty far distance and stretch LDH. You need this water source to mount any kind of meaningful attack on the fire. Do you, as an officer, delay the attack to wait for a truck that is not even an optimal piece of equipment for the situation? I'm genuinely asking, not trying to defend anyone.

Was this roof fully sheathed or skip sheathed?

The roof was fully sheathed.

[x635 4,066]

Did Engine 170 use it's CAFS system and discharge any lines with CAF or straight Class A Foam

[antiquefirelt 994]

I think there's a larger discussion to be had here. We've all beaten "leave room for the truck" into our heads since probie school, but here's an example where "leave room for the truck" might be a mutually exclusive idea as opposed to "put water on the fire." Now, Hartsdale is a rather proactive department when it comes to mapping and testing the flows of their hydrants. The officer on the first rig probably knew that there was a hydrant in front of the house, he also probably knew that (being on a dead end and up a hill), that he might only be able to flow one or two 1 3/4" lines (again, I point you to the size of the building and the potential fire load). The second or third due engine was going to have to grab a water source from a pretty far distance and stretch LDH. You need this water source to mount any kind of meaningful attack on the fire. Do you, as an officer, delay the attack to wait for a truck that is not even an optimal piece of equipment for the situation? I'm genuinely asking, not trying to defend anyone.

That's a decent question. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback based on my own area, but I'd have little chance at knowing all the little details of Hartsdale, that a fire officer has to use to make these decisions. I'd say I wouldn't want to delay getting water on the fire 99% of the time. If this was going defensive from minute 1? Maybe the delay would be worth it. Again, from my limited view on Google Earth, I'd look at positioning the first due engine near or in the driveway to allow a 50-75' section of street out front for a 100ft. aerial. That doesn't account for laying an LDH line in to augment a poor hydrant out front. Trust me, on any given day we all have to make decisions and live with them. Sometimes they truly are the best for the situation at hand, other times we realize later some of the alternatives we hadn't considered or accounted enough for. That's why this business is not a science, but not quite all an artform either.

One of the points here is that officers have to make snap decisions based on the conditions they see in a very short time, with not even half of the information they wished they had, and accounting for what they already know. Often this falls back to what's worked or not worked in similar situation in the past. The fewer experiences to fall back on, the harder the decision.

Again, I'm not trying to find fault with this job, merely peaking into how we as the American Fire Service do things, similar or differently regions to region, state to state, town to town.

On the roof sheathing, I was interested in that we have relatively few slate roofs. But in a former life, I was a carpenter and we built one McMansion with a slate roof. The slate roof company required that we skip sheath the roof. We also did this with wood shingles and it would stand to reason that after breaking a few slates off the fire would rapidly open the vent hole for you!

Edited March 19, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[JM15 386]

Trust me, on any given day we all have to make decisions and live with them. Sometimes they truly are the best for the situation at hand, other times we realize later some of the alternatives we hadn't considered or accounted enough for. That's why this business is not a science, but not quite all an artform either.

One of the points here is that officers have to make snap decisions based on the conditions they see in a very short time, with not even half of the information they wished they had, and accounting for what they already know. Often this falls back to what's worked or not worked in similar situation in the past. The fewer experiences to fall back on, the harder the decision.

Well said!!