Hartsdale Multiple Alarm Fire Photos 3/15/10

[Guest DFFD227]

Here are some quick snaps I got today on my camera phone...

[TR54 239]

Location : 80 Charlotte Place

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Hartsdale&state=NY&address=80+Charlotte+Pl&zipcode=10530-2602&country=US&latitude=41.016152&longitude=-73.792804&geocode=ADDRESS

[191SH 4]

The first thing that stands out to me is the laddering of the building- great job

[PFDRes47cue 653]

The first thing that stands out to me is the laddering of the building- great job

The laddering stood out to me too. Great job by all departments working at the fire. Looks like it took a while to be put U/C due to the massive size of the house. I hope all went home safe and uninjured!

[BFD1054 1,552]

The first thing that stands out to me is the laddering of the building- great job

Ill "3rd" that lol. Yes, great job with the laddering for sure. This is a very important task on any fireground, not to mention on a house of this size.

Making any sort of cut must have been a tough job between the slate and peak.

Nice work to HFD and all m/a companies.

[wraftery 1,275]

The first thing that stands out to me is the laddering of the building- great job

Note that ladders are placed in the "Egress Position." Tip is at the windowsill, not obstructing the opening. Angle is shallow so as to facilitate head-first emergency bailout by interior crews.

Tough roof to work, too. Slate, wet and steep. Best done off an aerial device, and clear the area below. Slate sildes off the roof like a bunch of axes.

That is a long and very narrow street. I would say that somebody did some good thinking enroute or on arrival for the truck to come from a distance and get the front of the building.

[yanks4ever1320 6]

the laddering was the first thing i noticed also. great job guys.

[chris 18]

Ladder 4 looked like it was in place before the fire came through the roof, then it seems to be gone. Did it relocate to another side of the house somehow or did it stow the ladder and retract the outriggers? Hard to tell from the pic's.

[HFD23 37]

Thank you scarsdale fd fast for your proactive laddering of the fire building

[antiquefirelt 994]

That is a long and very narrow street. I would say that somebody did some good thinking enroute or on arrival for the truck to come from a distance and get the front of the building.

Not to be the wet blanket, but it doesn't look like L4 got a very good spot to me? Looks like it's well off the incoming corner and the pics look as if the aerial wasn't able to place the FFer's where they needed to be to effect any real vent? Maybe there's some time missing in the pics where the aerial went closer to the ridge and the vent is part of what's burning in later shots?

I'm not saying it wasn't a good job, and the ground laddering is a refreshing sight, but I'm skeptical on the aerial. No good deed goes unpunished. Sorry, I'm an ordained minister in the Church of the Painful Truth.

[Guest ff101]

What other departments were on scene?

[HFD23 37]

What other departments were on scene?

Hartsdale greenville fairview scarsdale white plains yonkers

[chris 18]

Hartsdale greenville fairview scarsdale white plains yonkers

Do you have a rundown of who was there with what. One post said scarsdale was the fast company, I see ladder 4 from greenville. And also was there any ladder pipes used from any other pic's we didn't get to see.

[Raz 14]

Not to be the wet blanket, but it doesn't look like L4 got a very good spot to me? Looks like it's well off the incoming corner and the pics look as if the aerial wasn't able to place the FFer's where they needed to be to effect any real vent? Maybe there's some time missing in the pics where the aerial went closer to the ridge and the vent is part of what's burning in later shots?

Ladder 4 looked like it was in place before the fire came through the roof, then it seems to be gone. Did it relocate to another side of the house somehow or did it stow the ladder and retract the outriggers? Hard to tell from the pic's.

That's pretty much what happened. At the beginning of the incident, L4 made the best spot they could under the circumstances. They had two engines in front of them, and multiple LDH lines, on a very narrow street that reached a dead end directly in front of the fire building. Later in the incident, rigs and lines were repositioned and L4 was able to get to a more viable position. I'm still amazed at how the MPO's operated three rigs in such a tight space.

[ENG47INE 17]

Hartsdale Engine 169,170 Fairview Engine 175 Tower Ladder 1, Greenville Ladder 4, White Plains Tower Ladder 6 Engine 66 (covering Hartsdale) Scarsdale Engine 56 FAST, Yonkers Squad 11 and Ladder 70 i think and Elmsford Ladder 55 covering and Greenburgh Civil Defense was there. I think that was all units on scene

Edited March 16, 2010 by ENG47INE

[Raz 14]

So I'm an idiot, I drew in 171 instead of 174. Substitute accordingly.

To better demonstrate my answer about the ladder positioning:

This is the positioning in the posted pictures. They were taken relatively early on in the course of the incident.

This is the positioning I was referring to in my response. The MPO's (and many spotters) made use of every square inch of asphalt to position L4's turntable almost directly in front of the building (I still refuse to call that thing a "house"). The was literally not an inch of road to spare at the end of it. Webbing was used to slide LDH into positions that that allowed the rigs better access.

Also, I'd like to second the thank you to Scarsdale FD for the ground ladders. That's textbook Fast work.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Raz

[chris 18]

That's pretty much what happened. At the beginning of the incident, L4 made the best spot they could under the circumstances. They had two engines in front of them, and multiple LDH lines, on a very narrow street that reached a dead end directly in front of the fire building. Later in the incident, rigs and lines were repositioned and L4 was able to get to a more viable position. I'm still amazed at how the MPO's operated three rigs in such a tight space.

Thanks. Any info on what part of the house the fire started and how the fire spread through the roof ( ballon type, stairwell ) . And are there any more pic's . Also what is greenburg civil defence.

[Guest]

I believe Elmsford was there in some shape or form as well? Wether on the scene or stand by?

The stick for ladder 4 appeared to be at a low point at the roof, is this where the vent hole was cut, if there was one cut?

Decent pics thanks for sharing.

[chris 18]

I believe Elmsford was there in some shape or form as well? Wether on the scene or stand by?

The stick for ladder 4 appeared to be at a low point at the roof, is this where the vent hole was cut, if there was one cut?

Decent pics thanks for sharing.

It looked like the tree might have been in the way of the stick going any higher.

[Raz 14]

Thanks. Any info on what part of the house the fire started and how the fire spread through the roof ( ballon type, stairwell ) . And are there any more pic's . Also what is greenburg civil defence.

I wasn't there for the first hour or so of the incident, so unfortunately I can't answer some of those questions, and I'm not going to speculate as to the origin. I will say that the building, while obviously type III construction, was pretty unique in layout. The width of space between the stone exterior walls or slate roof, and wood/sheetrock interior walls was much larger than usual. At many spots, finish carpentry was used to install cabinets, closets, and rather deep shelving recessed into this void space. It is possible that the fire spread rather quickly throughout these voids. This would correlate with the description I was given by guys on the first attack lines.

[antiquefirelt 994]

No doubt sometimes the cards just don't deal in our favor. It certainly looks like this went as well as could have been "played".

Is there a chance that the OOS TL would have been in sooner to get a better position if it had been in service? It looks like it would have taken getting in the driveway to eat up some of that setback? I assume your lawns are like our right now and wouldn't allow a truck off the pavement? This begs another question: can or could you put the aerial on the lawn if that's what it took? Some FD's do not allow this, others seem to do this with relative frequency.

[Raz 14]

No doubt sometimes the cards just don't deal in our favor. It certainly looks like this went as well as could have been "played".

Is there a chance that the OOS TL would have been in sooner to get a better position if it had been in service? It looks like it would have taken getting in the driveway to eat up some of that setback? I assume your lawns are like our right now and wouldn't allow a truck off the pavement? This begs another question: can or could you put the aerial on the lawn if that's what it took? Some FD's do not allow this, others seem to do this with relative frequency.

It doesn't come across in the Google map overhead view, but the driveway is at an incline. Coupled with the retaining wall between the driveway and the front yard, and the guardrail at the end of the street, it would be a tight fit. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm just not sure. A lot of guys' boots were sinking into the lawn while going back and forth from the rigs to the house, so if it couldn't support 200 lbs, I'm sure 60,000 lbs wasn't an option.

No doubt the TL could've helped with this. Regardless of the response time question, I feel this is a prime example of a house (slate roof, steep pitch, elevated master streams needed) that would benefit from having a tower ladder in operation. White Plains did have a bucket on scene, but attempting to put it to work would've proven a logistical impossibility, as it would've needed to get past 4 rigs, 3 of which were actively engaged in fire suppression; as well as roughly 500 feet of LDH.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Raz

[x635 4,066]

This kind of structure reminds me of the 3rd alarm Greenville has on 12-19-2006 (although that house was well involved in the attic before arrivala)

PHOTOS: http://www.x635photos.com/thumbnails-100.html

Great job by the truck companies. Had TL-15 been there, it would have been perfectly positioned. But these departments work very well together and did an awesome job. Ladder 4, like Yonkers FD, is very agressive with the placement of their aerials.

When I was training in Hartsdale, we took the TL-15 to Charolette Pl and some of the other difficult locations within the district and discussed positioning. From looking at the ph oto, and this is assuming TL-15 isn't there before L-4 setup, TL-15 could of came to the back of L-4, turned to left so the midmount was aiming towards the house. Greenville's L-4 is only 75', Hartsdale's is 95'. It could have parelled Greenville's stick and go further past it's tip. Fire also doesn't stick around very long when TL-15 is flowing, and niether does anything in the way of its flow. And if it could safely be done, TL-15 carries a chainsaw to get trees out of the way. (or those of us who went to the MacWhirter school of tree trimming safely on the fireground)

Also, I know TL-15 has to take a seperate route in due to the incline of the street where it meets E Hartsdale Ave if I remember correctly.

These are my opinions only, and based on my time at Hartsdale. Also makes me kinda sad that I'll never be able to work on TL-15 again....I loved that truck and all it could do with the right positioning.

BTW, great photos, George! But don't you still have the DSLR?

[GFD505 0]

Great job by all the depts on scene!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Also, I know TL-15 has to take a seperate route in due to the incline of the street where it meets E Hartsdale Ave if I remember correctly.

Good stuff. It's truly important to have guys on the fireground or enroute who know the issues that can and will arise. This is why all our aerial operators must spend "extra" time on the road getting used to making sets and seeing the places where they can anticipate difficulty. On my job we run the tower out first (one house town)followed by the first due engine and the ambulance. This ensures we get the best set possible. There are also places we stage the tower back to ensure we get an up close read on the building before committing to a certain entrance or narrow street. Same goes for one ways where turning around or backing out would be the only option to get to a parallel street.

[antiquefirelt 994]

No doubt the TL could've helped with this. Regardless of the response time question, I feel this is a prime example of a house (slate roof, steep pitch, elevated master streams needed) that would benefit from having a tower ladder in operation.

If my "Google-Foo" and HS geometry doesn't fail me, it looks like a 95-100 aerial anywhere on the street beyond "the tree" would have allowed for access to the peak of the roof. I know it seems easy to say on the computer from miles away, but I like to see a large empty spot where a ladder should be regardless if you own one or have one on your first due assignment. It's just good practice to always be thinking "I need to leave room for a ladder". So, not to pick apart any one, we should all look at the pictures and think could this happen to us if our first due ladder was OOS or delayed? I know one of our crews blocked out a mutual aid ladder just last week, while ours was OOS, excrement happens. I also know it will not happen again on that shift!

And I agree a TL on late roofs would be a real benefit. I'm not a big fan of venting from a stick as I rarely see a decent hole unless the pitch allows the roofman to be on the surface itself. Was this roof fully sheathed or skip sheathed?

[chris 18]

If my "Google-Foo" and HS geometry doesn't fail me, it looks like a 95-100 aerial anywhere on the street beyond "the tree" would have allowed for access to the peak of the roof. I know it seems easy to say on the computer from miles away, but I like to see a large empty spot where a ladder should be regardless if you own one or have one on your first due assignment. It's just good practice to always be thinking "I need to leave room for a ladder". So, not to pick apart any one, we should all look at the pictures and think could this happen to us if our first due ladder was OOS or delayed? I know one of our crews blocked out a mutual aid ladder just last week, while ours was OOS, excrement happens. I also know it will not happen again on that shift!

And I agree a TL on late roofs would be a real benefit. I'm not a big fan of venting from a stick as I rarely see a decent hole unless the pitch allows the roofman to be on the surface itself. Was this roof fully sheathed or skip sheathed?

I agree with you, if they were beyond the tree they probably could have stuck the roof much higher, to bad it couldn't make it for whatever reason.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I agree with you, if they were beyond the tree they probably could have stuck the roof much higher, to bad it couldn't make it for whatever reason.

I think if L4 is only a 75 footer, they may not have gained all that much. When taking into account both height and setback, aerial length gets shortened up quickly. Trust me, you can't imagine how many times I had to school citizens and sadly a few firefighters, on the Pythagoreum Theorem when we were speccing our TL. "But we don't have any 95 foot tall buildings?"

[chris 18]

I think if L4 is only a 75 footer, they may not have gained all that much. When taking into account both height and setback, aerial length gets shortened up quickly. Trust me, you can't imagine how many times I had to school citizens and sadly a few firefighters, on the Pythagoreum Theorem when we were speccing our TL. "But we don't have any 95 foot tall buildings?"

Funny and sad all at the same time.

[ENG47INE 17]

Greenburgh civil defense goes to major fire scenes upon request. They are a truck equipped with 2 cascade machines i believe. DFFD227 maybe able to tell you more about it