WMD Radiological/Nuclear Course for Hazardous Materials Technicians in Nevada

[OoO 24]

I recently found out that the federal government will fly you out to Nevada and pay for your food and hotel (in Las Vegas), if you to attend a 4 day course on WMDs.

The details can be found here: http://www.ctosnnsa.org/

Has anyone attended one of these classes?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I've had a few instructors and professors who've attended. Said it was a great time, but do NOT just go out there for a free trip to Vegas. This is a LIVE fire WMD course at the National Test Site, where students actually operate in a radioactive atmosphere. Its some serious stuff, and if you think its tough operating in a suit in New England, wait until you do it in the Nevada desert.

A buddy from school and I are going to apply for the Chemical, Ordinance, Biological and RAdiological (COBRA) Training Facility in Anniston, Alabama. That's the live-fire class with Sarin and VX. I'm really interested in HAZMAT so that's the first one I want to go to, though the NTS nuke course is definitely on my list.

There is also a Biological Agent class and a "Kinetic Materials" (read: Explosive) course. They are all spread out about the nation. The best thing is, like OoO said, Uncle Sam picks up the tab.

[jk969 1]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but from what I understand, they no longer put you up in a hotel in Vegas. They now have on base accommodations. They used to put students up in The Station Casino and then bused students to the test site. It is a good course and worth the trip, however Anniston is better and builds more confidence as you train in an actual live agent environment.

[antiquefirelt 994]

About four of our guys have been to Nevada and another 2 or 3 to New Mexico. Nearly all of our career personnel have been to Anniston at least once, half twice and a few three times. I've to Carlin/Elko NV for the flammable fuels program. All schools are top notch and fully paid by Uncle Sam (you and me!)

[billfitz 109]

I've had a few instructors and professors who've attended. Said it was a great time, but do NOT just go out there for a free trip to Vegas. This is a LIVE fire WMD course at the National Test Site, where students actually operate in a radioactive atmosphere. Its some serious stuff, and if you think its tough operating in a suit in New England, wait until you do it in the Nevada desert.

A buddy from school and I are going to apply for the Chemical, Ordinance, Biological and RAdiological (COBRA) Training Facility in Anniston, Alabama. That's the live-fire class with Sarin and VX. I'm really interested in HAZMAT so that's the first one I want to go to, though the NTS nuke course is definitely on my list.

There is also a Biological Agent class and a "Kinetic Materials" (read: Explosive) course. They are all spread out about the nation. The best thing is, like OoO said, Uncle Sam picks up the tab.

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!

Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

Edited March 9, 2010 by billfitz

[billfitz 109]

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!

Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

BTW - this is not a knock on the classes or subject matter which is excellent - it is about the selection process to the classes - The Feds hire contractors to run these classes the Feds and the State Training Coordinators are more concerned with filling every seat in every class. The role the individaul student plays in the local/regional response is secondary to filling the classes.

[helicopper 1,050]

Regrettably the selection process does leave much to be desired. Because the success of a federal program is measured not on increased capabilities at the local or regional level but on the numbers of seats filled or certificates issued (as is the case with the online training that the Feds keep pushing on us), there is absolutely no correlation between training and capabilities. In fact, students are blindly accepted into programs where there should be strict background checks and screening due to sensitive content.

It's great to take people into these programs who are just seeking to increase their knowledge but only after the local, regional, and state capabilities are bolstered with targeted training deliveries.

And before you get too excited about these "free" programs, wait until April 15th when your taxes are due and think about whether or not you want four of the six good ol' boys in a rural Mississippi FD taking seats in a high level CBRNE class on "Uncle Sam"!

[antiquefirelt 994]

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!

Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

This is a great point. Our personnel have had this opportunity as we are one of 13 State recognized WMD/Haz-mat teams. This entails signing an MOU that we'll go anywhere the state requests us at any time. Every member is at least a Haz-mat tech/FF2/EMT or higher. Most of the guys in any of the classes I've attended were not buffs or "I fight what you fear" t-shirt vollies, but were in fact members of actual response teams or entities that had a true stake in emergency ops. These course are definitely not all expenses paid weekend fire attack schools!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Regrettably the selection process does leave much to be desired. Because the success of a federal program is measured not on increased capabilities at the local or regional level but on the numbers of seats filled or certificates issued (as is the case with the online training that the Feds keep pushing on us), there is absolutely no correlation between training and capabilities. In fact, students are blindly accepted into programs where there should be strict background checks and screening due to sensitive content.

It's great to take people into these programs who are just seeking to increase their knowledge but only after the local, regional, and state capabilities are bolstered with targeted training deliveries.

Thankfully as I posted above, this has not been our experience in most of these programs. Only one that I attended had a few people that had no business being there and they were basically treated as such (to the point that it was uncomfortable). Granted this may have changed in the last couple of years as with many programs they need to fill slots to keep their funding. I have seen plea's from our State coordinator for qualified applicants to sign up for programs. But the courses and instructors are pretty top notched, and no one want them wasting their time on guys looking for a buff vacation.

The whole "free" thing is great for agencies that are cash poor. It is not meant to attract every firefighter out there. Most of us do not have training budgets to sustain sending many personnel away in the middle of a budget year. Add to that contractually required incentives and it's not just the days off paid that need to be factored. While having been to these programs we are advocates, we could never have given these opportunities to as many of our personnel with only our city budget.

Edited March 9, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The Emperor has no clothes!

I heard in one of these classes they strip you naked and make you run out of one of the evolutions with your t-shirt wrapped around your head. It ain't just the Emperor who has no clothes!

Edit: I am serious I was told this happened, not a joke....but funny anyway.

Edited March 9, 2010 by efdcapt115

[gamewell45 258]

BTW - this is not a knock on the classes or subject matter which is excellent - it is about the selection process to the classes - The Feds hire contractors to run these classes the Feds and the State Training Coordinators are more concerned with filling every seat in every class. The role the individaul student plays in the local/regional response is secondary to filling the classes.

I think its a good idea that they open it up to anyone who's interested; afterall knowledge is a good thing. We are constantly whining in these forums that many firefighters are woefully undertrained, so I think its a good idea when people take interest in taking courses like these, no matter what state they are from. If they start screening and doing the so-called "background checks", the program risks becomming elitist and I don't think thats what the government has in mind.

Furthermore, from my experience, those who take these courses, do so with the mindset to learn; sure every so often you might get one or two people who's agenda's are not on learning, but I think for the most part most people's desire to learn is genuine. I've taken federal courses before and almost to the man and woman, they are all there to learn. Just my 2 cents.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

This is a great point. Our personnel have had this opportunity as we are one of 13 State recognized WMD/Haz-mat teams. This entails signing an MOU that we'll go anywhere the state requests us at any time. Every member is at least a Haz-mat tech/FF2/EMT or higher. Most of the guys in any of the classes I've attended were not buffs or "I fight what you fear" t-shirt vollies, but were in fact members of actual response teams or entities that had a true stake in emergency ops. These course are definitely not all expenses paid weekend fire attack schools!

Good for the Rockland, Maine FD to be so proactive. My compliments. It would be easy, even snobbish for any NY firefighters to dismiss Maine as a State that does not warrant WMD/Haz Mat qualified teams. Does anybody remember what airport a couple of the 9/11 terrorists started their day of mass murder from? You guessed it, Portland, Maine.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good for the Rockland, Maine FD to be so proactive. My compliments. It would be easy, even snobbish for any NY firefighters to dismiss Maine as a State that does not warrant WMD/Haz Mat qualified teams. Does anybody remember what airport a couple of the 9/11 terrorists started their day of mass murder from? You guessed it, Portland, Maine.

I certainly didn't take Chief Fitz's comments personally or even directed as such. I just considered my first comments and wanted to be sure no one thought I was advocating for a free vacation. We have changed a a lot of our Haz-Mat program from what our personnel have learned through these schools. Without a doubt, we question the WMD end of things up here, but without the funding most haz-mat teams couldn't hope to be as functional as they now are with added resources and training. All of this training and equipment of course assists us on "normal" haz-mat jobs which do happen even up here. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that our Chief's have often discussed not taking some of the available funding as we don't see oursleves as the tip of the WMD saber, but alas, we've had a few locals (in our Haz-mat first due) that were on their way to at least arming themselves as domestic terrorists. Recently a guy 20 miles north of us in Belfast was arrested with "dirty bomb" materials after his estranged wife turned him in. What his intentions were I do not recall, but I'm certain it's not gone to court yet.

We were just discussing the terrorists yesterday with a Lt. from Portland who was conducting our annual airport response refresher program. Being a first due mutual aid responder to our regional airport requires this. Anyway, Portland jetport has undergone, as have all airports, a significant change in security measures.

We had an A/C who swore he saw Mohammed Atta at the grocery store on 9/10/01 . While it was actually possible given his travel from Canada to the Portland Super 8, it became a great source of amusement here! We had a comic sketched of this particular A/C with Atta, Hitler,and Osama all in line behind him at the checkout.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I certainly didn't take Chief Fitz's comments personally or even directed as such.

I wasn't refering to chief Fitz's comments, sorry for the confusion. I just meant that it's easy for NY guys to see things from only their perspective. After all NY remains THE target for these fanatics; NY has to be as well prepared, if not more so, than anybody in the country.

Also, as a homeowner and taxpayer in the State of Maine, I fully support the fire service up there (make donations to my local VFD regularly), am in frequent communication with members of the Bangor Fire Department (they do work on my house), so am aware of the financial and political pressures on some of the FDs.

Have a couple of friends in DHS in Portland (one of them is a retired Captain from my job). These guys are true pros.

[antiquefirelt 994]

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!

Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

While I hadn't taken this as pointed at me or my dept directly I will at least respond for those who may be in the same boat as us.

Our FD cannot comply in full with NFPA 1710/1720 as of yet, as is the case with at least 85% of career FD's, never mind combo's or volunteer outfits. This does not mean in anyway that we're any less committed to the job, our citizens or our personnel. In our case we are slowly showing the public and politicians what it takes to ensure a safe adequate response, as we cannot "force" change to happen before the taxpayers can and will pay for it. We still do the best with what we have, knowing full well we undermine our arguments as we prove that doing more with less is often possible. We don't hesitate to show failures or less successful outcomes where staffing increases would have lead to greater success either.

Specific to this thread, we have considered walking away from the WMD/Haz-mat "business" given the time spent maintaining this capability. Trust me I've tried! My boss says I'm too anti-haz mat, to which I say I'm not but I'm far more "pro-fire" and would rather spend the valuable training time there. But even I must acknowledge that the problem is we have no other response agency within 60 minutes of us. With a few large industrial operations in town, we'll always have to have a haz-mat response capability, so we're in it, whether we like it or not. Even if we thought we could get out, Haz-mat is in our department's mission as required by City charter, so it's not our choice alone.

I cannot apologize for trying to provide the best training and equipment to our FD and service functionality to our citizens for a mission we've been tasked with by the community. While I'd personally like to ditch haz-mat, I certainly won't condone doing it half-baked.

Edited March 9, 2010 by antiquefirelt

[HazMatHarry 0]

I recently found out that the federal government will fly you out to Nevada and pay for your food and hotel (in Las Vegas), if you to attend a 4 day course on WMDs.

The details can be found here: http://www.ctosnnsa.org/

Has anyone attended one of these classes?

I took this class last month and took the CTOS Mobile Training Team's Personal Radiation Detector course just yesterday. CTOS is part of NSTec, the contractor that runs the Nevada Test Site (Grumman is the prime contractor in the NSTec consortium) for the Department of Energy but CTOS is funded by DHS. CTOS used to be part of Bechtel Nevada when Bechtel had the DOE contract and the course is sometimes referred to as just "Bechtel."

You arrive on a Sunday, class goes Monday through Thursday and fly home Friday (with the option of extending your trip if you pay for your own hotel after Thursday night) Sunday, Monday and Thursday nights are in Las Vegas at the Tuscany Suites and Casino; Tuesday and Wednesday nights are in dorms at the Nevada Test Site (about an hour north of Vegas). The test site is an extremely interesting and historic government installation, you can learn a lot about it from a little googling. The class was quite large, around 100 students split into two groups and they run the gamut from fire and police to health care, military, and more. Students came from all over the country from large metropolitan departments to federal agencies to small rural departments. All students are required to be state certified hazmat technicians and most have 40 or 80 hour training rather than the 24 hour minimum.

The curriculum includes an overview of the nuclear and radiological hazard, a tour of the Nuclear Testing Museum, and practical exercises to include locating radiological materials, deconning patients, and performing mock rescues in a high radiological energy environment. You will learn how to operate detectors, dosimeters, and probes. I found it interesting that the course seemed structured to first break you down and get you scared of ionizing radiation and then build you up to the point where you are very comfortable working around it. I arrived with more advanced knowledge than many of the other participants due to the nature of my job but I think we were all on a pretty level playing field when we graduated. One thing to remember, however, is that if your agency does not have a radiological response role and the equipment/instruments to drill with you will quickly forget what you learned in the course. In my agency we train with the dectors used in the course as well as some more advanced instruments on a weekly basis.

For this course they do in fact run at least some sort of background check as you will be in proximity to some very sensitive areas. The scope of the check is limited to foreign dealings and criminal records, not professional qualifications to be there. The Test Site security force in and of itself is very impressive and extremely well armed. The nights at the dorms are not the time to screw around, you definately want to be on your best behavior (and they'll read you the riot act to that effect when you arrive on site).

If any of you have questions about the course please don't hesistate to get in touch with me via PM. Also for those that are interested, CTOS is part of the National Domestic Preparedness Consortium (NDPC), all of the NDPC sites (CDP in Anniston is one of them for instance) offer training fully funded by DHS. THe newest NDPC site is actually in Hawaii (!) but they dont have any courses scheduled yet. Links to all the sites are available on the NDPC site at:

http://www.ndpc.us/

[SageVigiles 1,194]

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!

Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

I'm an EPA (40 hour) HAZMAT tech and am applying to the New Haven Area Special Hazards Team through my membership with the Wallingford Fire Department, with hopes to take the longer NFPA 472 class, as soon as I can find someone to pay for it.. I've taken multiple HAZMAT courses in college and its definitely an area I'm interested in and have some abilities in. So yeah, by summer I'll be on a team. Besides the fact that Anniston DOESN'T require you to be a HAZMAT Technician at all. This definitely won't be my first time taking a HAZMAT course, and its a great resume builder when I go to apply for federal law enforcement.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Besides the fact that Anniston DOESN'T require you to be a HAZMAT Technician at all. T

Unless something has changed, you cannot take the WMD Technician program unless you are a Tech (which you are). It maybe that you can now take a "soup to nuts" course there that makes you a tech, then puts you through the WMD class and live agent training? There are a whole host of programs there that benefit from persons from multiple fields attending. The IC program works much better when you have actual people from all the supporting agencies to "play out" that role. It's amazing how little many of us know about the others capabilities and responsibilities. This education alone is worth the trip for those with daily command staff responsibilities. Needless to say I learned how different the Red Cross is large urban areas as opposed to those we deal with up in the NE corner!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I think I was confusing PER-261 (Technical Emergency Response Training) with PER-260 (WMD Technician.) Maybe I wasn't sure which was live agent. I still have to call up my regional contact to figure all the specifics out, I'm going to apply for dates in June/July.